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[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande, hi. I'm Cynthia Erivo, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network. Visit vpm.fm to discover more. There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. I'm the one who died. I'm the one who died.

[0:29] Speaker 2: Welcome to the wrong cat died the podcast breakdown of the catastrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another special guest. He's one of the hosts of a fellow Broadway Podcast Network show called The Broadway husbands. He's the Broadway life coach. You may have seen him on Broadway in Wicked or Little Mermaid or on your big screen and The Wolf of Wall Street, but most importantly, he's been in two different productions of cats, and that's why he's here today. So Brett schuber, thank you for joining me. Thanks for having me. I'm so happy to be here. I am excited to hear about your both of your productions, but before we get into your experience with the show, I want to hear about your experience with the show before you were in them. So were you. I mean, how did cats play a part in your musical theater experience? Was it something you saw as a kid, or is it something you picked up on later in life?

[1:18] Speaker 3: Funny that you ask the national tour, I didn't really know cats, except for, like David Letterman, you know, because then I don't know if you remember David Letterman used to go, go over to the Winter Garden and have the cats come do stuff at his theater.

[1:37] Speaker 3: David Letterman, you should YouTube it, because he used to go pick on that because the theater was, like, really close to his theater, and also the flash dancers the adult strip club, but that was like across the street as well. He used to go pick on both of those venues. And then also there was that show that kind of, what was it called Caroline? Was a sitcom called Caroline, something from the 90s, and her room,

[2:13] Speaker 3: no, no, okay. And I think it had, um sitcom. It's gonna kill me. What was it called Caroline in the city I do not remember that sitcom, and it starred, what's her name from Back to the Future? My brain is not working. It's Friday. What's her name from Back to the Future? That was like the love interest in Back to the Future. Anyway, she she had her roommate was in cats. And so I remember those two things specifically about cats, and I'd never seen the show until, like, whatever 20th national tour came to my hometown of orange, Texas for two nights, and my parents got me front row seats. And I I actually know a couple of people who are on that tour. Now they're actually friends of mine, but at the time, I was 15 or 14, and I was just mesmerized, mesmerized by the dancing and the lighting and the costumes. And I remember one of the things that happened to that had this very vivid dream of being in the show like it was a very vivid I remember waking up me like I had a dream. I was in cats last

[3:27] Speaker 2: night. Which cat were you in that dream? I don't even know,

[3:31] Speaker 3: because, you know, when you see the show the first time, you don't know who's who, like nobody's anybody. It's just the blur. You know, I was, like, I was somebody in a unitard crawling around on stage, but it was cool.

[3:44] Speaker 2: That's, that's awesome. And so then you kind of go on and you originally get to become a swing in the Westchester Broadway show. What was the what was the theater here?

[3:56] Speaker 3: Yeah, the Westchester Broadway dinner theater. Which dinner theater? Okay, yeah, they actually had the, I think they had the first licensing rights of the production right after it closed, at least that's what they had told us. Whether that's true, I don't know. How's the marketing line. So we ended up, I ended up getting cast. And the reason why I say that is because it was set by the resident choreographer and the resident music director both set that production. And I was a swing. I covered monkey strap, I covered skimble Shanks, and I covered like Alonzo. And I think one other track, I can't remember who it was, and then I was a pits, you know, one of the pit singers.

[4:44] Speaker 2: Okay, so what I'm always interested about is, when you're especially as a swing, what were you told about the characters, like, when you were, like, taking them on, like, were you given back stories? Were you given, like, 2016 they were given three words for each cat. But what were you told at a. At the Westchester Broadway dinner theater about how to portray each character. Well,

[5:05] Speaker 3: they don't really break it down into characters as much as they break it down as a tribe, right? So it all starts with you being a tribe, and everyone's sort of crawling around. And then when you start learning the numbers, is when they explain relationships within the numbers, which doesn't mean that it's consistent throughout the show. You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean

[5:27] Speaker 3: So there'll be like, you know, this person is this to you in this song, but then, like, three songs later, there are nobody like, it doesn't, it doesn't make sense in that way, because it's poems, you know, it's weird.

[5:42] Speaker 2: Well, it's, it's a very loose, loose plot, kind of pulled together with a couple different I guess it

[5:47] Speaker 3: will tell you, Okay, I'll tell you. You know, mccavity, they would tell you, is like the leader of the group, he sort of helps comfort everyone and bring, you know, sort of direction to the

[6:00] Speaker 2: evening. That's got to be Old Deuteronomy. Now I'm a cavity.

[6:03] Speaker 3: Sorry, I didn't mean my cavity. I meant, um, monkey strap.

[6:09] Speaker 3: Okay, yeah. Narrator, he sort of, like helps bring comfort to everyone and protect everyone from the cavity. I think that's why I was thinking, Yeah, you know, he helps kind of be the, sort of the leader of the group, okay, so

[6:22] Speaker 2: you were given, so you're not given a lot going in. Did with it being a dinner theater, did they alter the menu to be cats themed?

[6:30] Speaker 3: No, no, this place is so budget. It's like, it's, I think they serve the same thing every night. I know dessert was always the same. It was, it peaches. Melba, what a missed opportunity. And we would do, we would be killing ourselves on this thrust stage, doing the Jellicle Ball, dying, panting, and then we and land, and somebody would just be sitting there eating a peach melba

[7:01] Speaker 2: did Buster Jones, whoever played this in this theater, go out and actually eat off of someone's party in the crowd? I

[7:09] Speaker 3: don't remember him doing that, but that, it's a brilliant idea. I think he did walk through the house, but I think they tried to keep food away.

[7:20] Speaker 3: They always do kind of long runs. I think they always do, like, three month runs or, I mean, it's, they're pretty long. And you commute from the city up to West Chester, two show days are really long there. But I was right out of college. I mean, I just got my equity card and was so excited to do cats because I'd had that dream when I was, you know, 15 and so. But I ended up leaving early because I ended up booking another gig, and I ended up leaving that contract, but I did go on for for monkeystrap, I think twice, actually.

[7:56] Speaker 2: So then how long was it before your second run at the was the Walnut Street Theater as skimble Sharks. How long between between the two?

[8:08] Speaker 3: So that was like 2002 I guess, at West Chester. And then 2004 was Walnut Street. So about two years later,

[8:18] Speaker 2: and what were you? Were you told anything different there now that you're skimble Shanks, you got, you know, you're not playing multiple characters. You got your one role. How much backstory did you kind of come up with in your own mind for this?

[8:29] Speaker 3: Well, you know, you actually get most of the backstory from the cast, because with cats being what it is, and the amount of material, movement wise, you have to learn they always bring people in who've done the show before, and they'll tell you like, This is who I Jenny, any thoughts, is this to this person? And so you get a lot of it from the cast, and then stuff that I had remembered from doing it before. So I'm trying to remember. But you know, I will say this, I cats is one of those shows you learn from the outside in a lot of shows, you learn from the inside out. Like, here's why we're telling the story cats. You learn the movement, you learn the music, and then slowly you start to figure things out in between. And I feel like, I feel like there was just like, it's hard to explain how you learn backstory when they're just trying to teach you, like, you're gonna paw here and you're gonna jump there, you know, so that it's

[9:27] Speaker 2: interesting you say it that way, because that's why I feel like it was written, which is like someone decided they wrote, they were a DJ, and wrote all the songs and had a couple, like, really great dance ideas. I'm like, oh, but none of this makes sense. So let's add a little bit of an arc here to try to tie this together, and it's loose. And so I feel like that. I'm not surprised they taught it to you that way, because I think I've thought more about which cats are related to other cats than than the actual people that created the show.

[9:55] Speaker 3: Well, you can't, I mean, it's just you kind of have to make sense of. It when you're doing it otherwise. Why are you doing it? You know, so everyone just kind of makes sense of it as they go, and then they teach you that, like, Hey, this is why I cross stage right at that moment. It's because I was made a decision that that's a person. And you're like, Okay, I guess I'll do that too. And now I'm monkey strap.

[10:18] Speaker 2: I love how little thought, it seems like went into this, versus what the super fans and everyone else has clearly, like, really thought about. And it seems very obvious that all of those fan rumors and everything that's out there is just that from fans and not from actual we thought that Old Deuteronomy is the father of this particular cat, and this one's definitely owned by the landlord, and all these other pieces, I think it's, it's so much up for interpretation that when you're in the dinner theater, it's just like, just go out there and dance like, don't, don't worry about the rest of it.

[10:56] Speaker 3: Yeah? But I, you know, that's the fans are, what make things shine. You know? I mean, I remember, yeah, I'm a huge Disney nerd, right? And, like, you go to Disney Land and go to haunted mansion, and it's a super fun experience. But people will tell you this whole storyline about how the Haunted Mansion is run by this guy, Mr. Gracie, and the names of the ghosts are this and, like, Disney never did that. That's all the fans like and but fans are like, Die Hard. They will make that work. And I feel like it's the same thing with cats. It's like it's so much more fun to do it for those people who are invested in you than the people eating the peach melba,

[11:35] Speaker 2: people there for dinner, kids and have no interest in seeing it. So how much, as you know, you've been very successful in a lot of different shows and been on Broadway, and how much is this cat's influence, not just you, but, like, the Broadway community, like, it's definitely one of the longest running shows, and it's got all this kind of this fame and history and the butt end of a lot of jokes, but but from an artistic standpoint, like, what does having that on your resume kind of do for you as a performer?

[12:07] Speaker 3: Well, I think that. I think Jillian, I think what makes cats so brilliant is Jillian Lynn's choreography. And personally she, I think she really is the heart of that show. And so I think any if you have cats on your resume, I think Jillian Lynn rushed her soul. I got to work with her and Chitty, Chitty Bang Bang as well. Was, was a genius and and I think you having that on your resume as a movement, as a dancer and a storyteller and a theater person, that says a lot about your ability to be a dancer and your ability to tell a story while dancing. I think that, you know, I also think that the angel and Weber Cameron Macintosh like that world, just like Disney on Broadway, there's like a little family in there, and there's people who, who I worked on those shows with, who still run that organization that I still stay in touch with, and you kind of become a part of that little network and that little family of people. And to me, that's what makes Broadway so special, is the community.

[13:11] Speaker 2: Yeah, so I felt, you can feel that the more I've been kind of in this little realm of my part of this community. You can definitely feel that. But is it, is it amplified with with cats, or is it just, you know, part of the Broadway, you know, it's just part of the Broadway community.

[13:28] Speaker 3: I think it's just a separate it's its own little experience. I mean, anytime you talk to someone who's done cats, you can literally go, Oh my God, you did cats. Who were you? Did you do that part where this happened, and did you, you know, oh my god. And like, it's so, like, if you do A Chorus Line, it's the same thing. Like, I've been, I've done a chorus line, like, five times, and I've played somebody else. And so my relationship to when I played Bobby, to Sheila, anyone I meet who's played Sheila, I'm like, I was Bobby, and she's like, Oh my God. And no one watching this show would know what that means. But for us, having done it, it's the it's the same experience. One of the things I will say about cats that I, I think I share with every single person I ever meet who's done the show is how good our bodies looked when we did that show, because you're just so active. I mean, I was snatched when I did that show. It's,

[14:20] Speaker 2: I mean, it is a when I left, the first time I saw it was one of the things I like thought about was that looked like a workout,

[14:29] Speaker 3: yeah, like an extreme workout. I was in such good shape, because you're using every part of your body and your stamina for singing while you're doing all that dancing. It's, it's amazing. It's a great workout,

[14:43] Speaker 3: should be a workout. Get your cat's body, or cat's body worked out, or something like that.

[14:49] Speaker 2: I'm sure someone's doing dance numbers from from there. Sure. Yeah. So I want to ask you, and I don't know if you how much you'll remember from this, but I usually like to go into the. Rumor Mill of your character. So I have not talked a ton about skimble Shanks besides the episode I did on him. And so I'm curious if I, as you're learning it from the was it from the outside in? Do any of these rumors hold merit with your productions? So the first one I can remember, yeah. The first one is, is that there's a relationship with Jenny any dots.

[15:24] Speaker 3: Um, I I've always thought of skimble Shanks as gay, okay, so what I remember is his relationship with Jenny any dots was more like sibling, because they're both like tabby cat sister

[15:39] Speaker 2: that. Okay, so that would make, that would make sense. But then that would, that would ruin this. Well, no, I wouldn't. Is that your rumple teasers, uncle? That's the other rumor that's out there.

[15:48] Speaker 3: Yeah, he was the uncles of the kittens. I remember that being,

[15:54] Speaker 2: okay, so there that is that was given to you. Yeah, I remember

[15:58] Speaker 3: that like, we're sort of the uncles of the kittens. And it wasn't just rumple. It was like, what was the one who sings moonlight? The other like little bitty the kittens. He's like the uncle of both of them. And it was constantly like trying to get them to stop playing and trying to get them to stop

[16:16] Speaker 2: goofing around. Okay? So that that holds some that hold some merit, then the other one is that there's the which would support your argument is that there is some relationship with Tugger.

[16:29] Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, I don't see how that. I mean, maybe, but I not a not that was not told to me, and that was not something I ever played, because I always thought of Tugger, Tugger and like, skimble such a neat, nice and neat and, like, orderly cat that I don't think he'd ever want to hang out with Tugger. I think I always remember him being kind of annoyed by Tugger because Tugger was so rambunctious. That's

[16:53] Speaker 2: the opposites attract type of mindset, though. I think that's where that kind of comes from.

[16:57] Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, I It's a choice that's not a choice I made.

[17:03] Speaker 2: There's, there's a lot of options here. And you know, once you start really tying them together, it's like, well, they all can't be true, because then there'd be too many cross paths here. Where

[17:13] Speaker 3: the lyrics? Where are the lyrics that support this? That's what I want.

[17:18] Speaker 2: Oh, there's, there's no lyrics supporting almost anything that I've argued the lyrics don't help most of my cases. Okay, but I want to know a little bit. So again, my frame of reference is just the 2016 production in which I saw it twice, and the 1998 movie, and nothing else, I guess, the new movie, if you want to count that so I vividly remember the skimbo Shanks performance the first time I saw it, because at first I'm like, this is incredible. They're building a train. I was like, This is awesome. Then the light at the top of the train gets pointed out to the audience, and decided to point it right at me, and I was like, blinded for a second, and I was sitting there going, like, why did they just shine a giant light directly at me as it's moving as part of the song? So I almost walked out a little angry at skimble Shanks song, but now I'm like, envisioning somebody in the audience at that dinner theater, and you're at that someone's at the I don't forget who it is, whether it's it's Mustafa Lees or monkey shop, or somebody's at the top. And also they point the light out, and now someone's receiving their dessert. Did you build like was that part of your number in the dinner?

[18:37] Speaker 3: Yeah? Building the train? Yeah. Would you be down the light out to the crowd? Um, no, I but no, because I never went on for skimble at the dinner theater. Okay, I did skimble at Walnut, but I don't remember the light ever going out into the audience. I remember going sort of at an angle, but, but you know, cats are mean and cats are, I'll tell you, can? I just tell you, this is totally kind of off topic, but that like being a cat in the audience, because, you know, when they have to go through the audience, right? Yeah, and scare, scare the life out of children, right? So there's those things. But then also, like people would I remember we were collecting for Broadway Cares, equity, fights, AIDS, and I'm standing in my skim bowl costume in the lobby with a bucket. And people were like, Can I pet you?

[19:35] Speaker 2: I was like, you said, you said yourself, you were in peak shape.

[19:40] Speaker 3: Well, I was but I was like, I remember to say, No, I'm not a real I'm not a real cat, like I'm a person.

[19:50] Speaker 2: Yeah, petting is weird. That's the whole thing. That whole thing is weird. But I'm sure it's like, it happens probably all the time.

[19:59] Speaker 3: Oh. I mean, if you're out in the lobby, you're just kind of asking for it, but, like, I remember that, you know, you go and you shine the lights with the at the at the beginning, and so we liked picking on the audience. So maybe somebody just wanted to pick on you that that performance of cats,

[20:14] Speaker 2: it could have been, I was definitely I had to have had a dumbfounded look on my face the entire time, but I wasn't on the aisle, so I and I'm kind of glad, because I I was not prepared for the green eyes at the beginning with the cats in the audience. I was, I was actually really impressed by the set when I walked in, that I was spending so much time like looking around all the different things of set. And then all of a sudden, lights went off, and there's a cat right to my right. And I was just like, so thankful there were two people in between me and Nile, because I was not prepared for for that experience. So I want to talk. I want to do a little rapid fire, and then I do want to talk my my thesis of of your take on grizzabel being the choice. But I want to go through a couple things with the with with the show. So you've played a handful of different cats, but if there's one that you could they're going to go back on Broadway. Which, which track would you want to be doing full time?

[21:20] Speaker 3: Oh, God, alanzo. Why? Like, he's my, probably my, my least favorite, and my favorite cat. I think I really love Jenny. Any dots?

[21:36] Speaker 2: Yeah, great. It's a great number, and the tap dance is really impressive. It's always kind of it's one I think I under appreciated when I saw it. And then as I've watched more, I'm like, this is, this is good, not the movie version. The music. Yes, correct.

[21:49] Speaker 3: Favorite song. I mean, you can't go wrong with memory. It's classic, yeah.

[22:07] Speaker 2: probably mistoolies? Yeah, I think that's the only that's the clear answer. There's a couple you can argue,

[22:17] Speaker 2: exactly magic all day. And then, okay, this one, I have to explain. But I learned that there's a thing called Cats tumbler from a fan who's part of it, and it's like, it's super it's super interesting and super cool, like a boy cats lives on beyond, you know, the theater, but they have interactions as if they're writing the character outside of cats, but as the character so different, you know, different scenes. So if you could write a character, if you were going to take over a character and take them out of the cats universe, but into the real world, and you were writing as the scenes and having interactions with other cats, which one would you want to write?

[23:05] Speaker 3: Because, because carica Patton is not a fully fleshed out carrot, like, doesn't get a full real experience in the show and deserves it.

[23:15] Speaker 2: So you would be, you'd be telling the story for the first time, the untold story. Okay, that's, that's interesting. I always stick with my cavity there, because I would want to just be able to do and break every law and kind of, I think it'd be fun to write that character of just not having to follow any any rules and directions, and just being kind of the antagonist the entire time. Okay, so now the million dollar question. I've argued that I don't think Grizabella is the right choice to die at the end of the musical. And so I'm curious, do you agree with me? And if you agree with me, who would you, who would you choose? And if you want to defend Grizabella, give me the defense of Grizabella in your eyes.

[23:58] Speaker 3: I mean, I don't I. I would probably say I agree with you. I think I feel like Gus should go on Gus lair, right? Such a obvious. I think defense for Gus, yeah. I mean, he's, he's earned it. He was fire for fiddle, the fiend of the fell. I mean, he's, he's ready?

[24:23] Speaker 2: Yeah, I so I agree. Does it bother you as much as it bothers me that Bill wins?

[24:29] Speaker 3: No, clearly not No, no, but I will. Can I just tell you there's a story that somebody I did the show with, who did it? Had done it on probably told me about how they would prep to do green eyes before the show, and you could hear the audience right from where they were, and that there was these. I don't know if you've heard the story. And if somebody's told told you the story, you can delete it. I don't think I have that. There were these two ladies, old ladies, New York ladies, sitting in the front row, and he they could hear them before the show. Oh. And she says to her friend, have you seen this show before? And her friend says, No. She goes, Oh, it's so good. There's all these cats. And they go to this party. And at the end of the party, they take this old cat and they blow her through the roof.

[25:21] Speaker 2: Such a simplified explanation of, like, just so simple. I mean, that that's hard. I mean, how could you not join her for that,

[25:33] Speaker 3: right? I really so be like, they blow her through the roof.

[25:39] Speaker 2: That is phenomenal. That is, you know, honestly, it's, it is one of the cleanest and clearest explanations of the show I've

[25:45] Speaker 3: heard. That's, that's it. And then you can start the show. Now, there you go. Yeah, you can

[25:49] Speaker 2: start to show. I mean, and that's the, that's the elevator pitch, that's the hook. Is like, Hey, why do you want to go see it? Big party. Blow her through the roof. We're done.

[26:01] Speaker 2: That's amazing. So tell me about the Broadway life coach? Oh

[26:08] Speaker 3: sure, yeah, I I work on the side as I'm certified life coach. And of course, since the pandemic, so many of the people in our community are really struggling to figure out what's next, and it's become a huge project of mine to help people during this time. So I started a Broadway face, Broadway life coach Facebook group, where we offer what I call Broadway life support to help people get through this time. So if anybody is looking for some support and some coaching, come check out broadwaylife coach.com

[26:41] Speaker 2: amazing and how else can we find you on the social medias?

[26:45] Speaker 3: Oh, I'm on all the socials. You can come find me on social media, on Instagram, on YouTube, on Facebook, at Brett Shuford, as Brett with 1t Schubert,

[26:57] Speaker 2: amazing. It's great when they're all the same. Makes it so much easier. Oh yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining me indulging these cats conversations. I love reminiscing about the dinner theater. I'm sure you're craving that dessert. Ready to go, a

[27:16] Speaker 2: Yeah, you're, you're ready to go. Thanks for listening to this episode with Brett Shubert on the wrong cat died. The podcast breakdown with catastrophe. To follow along. You can subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, or anywhere else you listen to podcasts, follow us on Twitter and Instagram at the wrong cat died. Or check out our website, the wrong cat died. Calm. You.