This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande. Hi, I'm Cynthia Erivo, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network, visit vpm.fm to discover more.

[0:15] Speaker 2: I'm the one good night. I'm the one good night. I welcome

[0:29] Speaker 3: to the wrong cat died. The podcast breakdown of the cat's atrophy. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another very fun episode as I continue to deliver on my promise to provide you a wide variety of cats related content. Today, we're going to take a slightly different angle. Today, I'm going to ask questions to two of the most knowledgeable Broadway people I know, theater stalwart Jamie Dumont, and Broadway writer and critic Rob Russo. They're the host of a fellow Broadway Podcast Network show called the fabulous invalid, and I know I've discussed the plot at length on my show. So today I'm inviting Jamie and Rob to fill in the Broadway blanks. So Jamie, Rob, welcome to the wrong cat died, and thanks for joining me.

[1:09] Speaker 4: Thanks so much, Mike. We're thrilled to be here we are.

[1:13] Speaker 3: I am excited to talk to you, because every time I've talked to you both, you make references. I'm just like, I don't even know what you're talking about. And so I thought, let's bring this knowledge about cats to

[1:26] Speaker 4: Jamie mentioned that you wanted to have us on the show, I leapt at the opportunity, because any opportunity to talk about cats I'm there selects

[1:33] Speaker 5: I feel like that's, I feel like that's, that's a false narrative. I'm pretty sure that I forced us onto Mike. I'm pretty sure that I challenged you on social media to have us both on. So thank you for indulging. Yeah,

[1:49] Speaker 3: I was thrilled. I was so let's start with your your either fandom or hatred for the show. Just like, what's your history with cats as a musical Jamie, please go first.

[1:59] Speaker 5: I love cats. I will say that I did see the original tour. I didn't see the original company on Broadway, but I saw it in, I guess, 83 or 84 in Los Angeles. I loved it before that. I I will also say that my father was a huge TS Eliot fan, so I was required to read the poems long before the musical ever existed. So it was something that I was familiar with. So the book is always

[2:32] Speaker 5: yes, I mean, I would say that this is an improvement in a way, or there it's a lateral improvement, if that's a thing, but I will say I was familiar with it. So when we got the cast album before seeing it, I was really excited. So, and I, I will say that there was a moment in my life where I sort of dipped in my fandom, and I, I kind of I got into the negativity that surrounds the show a tiny bit, and I sort of fell out of fandom. And then the 2016 revival happened, and I fell back in love with the show. So I've had a checkered past, perhaps, but it's but, but solidly, I love, I love cats. All right. Well, for

[3:13] Speaker 4: me, love feels like too weak a word for the way that I feel about cats. I am obsessed with cats. I adore cats. I love cats. To quote Woody Allen, I love cats. I love cats. You know, I saw the original robbery production in 1999 my I begged my father to take me to see it, and he was a very good father, so he very willingly took me to a Wednesday matinee in August of 1999 and I the reason I wanted to go is because my two older siblings who had seen the show earlier in the 90s, I think, in 1991 or 92 and I was always so jealous that they got to see cats before me or without me, I should say. So I went in. I didn't really know the show that well the first time I saw it, you know, I knew that the hits. And of course, as a kid, growing up on Long Island, the cats commercial was just ubiquitous, right? Like between every cartoon break on Nickelodeon, there was the cats commercial. So I just remember being like, what is this show? So like, fascinated by it, and having all of that fascination satisfied when I finally saw it in 1999 and then since then, I've just fallen in love with the original Broadway cast album. And then the 2016 revival, I once again left at the opportunity to see it, and I ended up seeing it five times and writing a piece about it that to date is, I believe, the most read piece on my website, stage left, where I delved into the history of it, and, you know, sort of made a case for why everybody should see cats Wow. So the

[4:47] Speaker 3: number one piece for you is about your cat's reunion. Now without I want to ask you both, because I usually like to debate this. I was gonna save it for the end, but we're gonna, we're gonna jump right into Wow. I don't want to out your A. Age. But how old were you both when you saw it in

[5:07] Speaker 5: yeah, I was, I can't remember if it was 83 or 84 but I was probably 1314, somewhere in there, maybe 15. So that, to

[5:15] Speaker 3: me, is like the cut off of when I think you are okay to bring a kid to go see it, anything younger, and I went, like, I went and saw it as an adult. You know, I just moved to New York. It's been four or five years ago, 2016 revival, and I was a an adult, and I was like, there should not be children around me. And so I've stuck with that. But I think teenager, it's a little bit more like, you kind of get the concepts, but don't really get the concepts. Or maybe, like, it's there's just, like, the five and six year olds. I think is bad parenting. I've stuck with that. It's funny

[5:49] Speaker 4: that you say that, because, like, one of the central theses of my piece that I wrote is that I think the show is best received by children. So there you go.

[6:01] Speaker 3: I so I guess, what is your like? Give me your My, my, your statement, your argument on why?

[6:09] Speaker 4: Well, I mean, I think first of all, the source material itself, right? The poems by TS Eliot were written for his God, children. And the children, they were children, right? So they were meant for for consumption by by children correct in their purest form. And then,

[6:26] Speaker 3: but counterpoint point, yes, Grizabella, yes, she was not in the book. That is true, because TS Eliot said it was too scary for children, absolutely. And now your central figure of the play is a poem that was too scary for kids.

[6:45] Speaker 4: Okay, that's fair. That's fair. I get that I mean. But I think stepping back to the experience, the event of seeing the show, or even just the very concept of the show itself, I have always believed requires sort of a child like ability to suspend disbelief and sort of submerge yourself into a fantasy world. And I think that kids are far more receptive to engaging with that type of art and and I think the the pure magic of the production itself. I mean setting apart the words and the music, but the experience of seeing it, the event of seeing it in the theater, is such a visually and orally stimulating experience that I think children are more willing to engage with and get lost in and appreciate in a way, because they're not questioning whether or not, you know, it's logical, right? They're they're more willing I believe, or at least the kids you know I know, or when I was a kid, you know, to just sort of take it for what it is and and enjoy it without, you know, any sort of exterior questioning of, you know, a is this cool, right? I mean, I think there's a whole thing around cats about it, you know, not being a cool thing. So as, sort of as a reputational concern that I think some adults might bring to it. But also just, you know, the the story itself and the subject matter.

[8:27] Speaker 5: curious, Mike, what you think is objectionable for children? What's the content that you find offensive or that children shouldn't be seeing?

[8:36] Speaker 3: So maybe I have, for this podcast, researched the plot way more than any human being probably should have, that's not been in the show. And when you really break down, the first of all, the opening green eyes number scared the living lights out of me. And I was not on the aisle, and I, you know, again, an adult. And I know, I think it was Tyler Haynes mentioned that he got hit in the face by a kid when he popped up. So I think, like, there's that, there's that aspect that, like, scared me completely. But when you really look at the plot, the joke of all is an orgy. There's a little bit of a coming to life. There's a potentially drugged out sex worker in Grizabella. There's bus for Jones going to strip clubs and gentlemen's clubs. Like, when you really break down what's happening the cavity is in an abusive relationship. Like, there is some very dark premises to this show, and it's like it it's something that, again, I don't think the argument against my kid shouldn't be there would be, you don't get all of that. It's just kind of an experience. But as I've researched and I've really looked into these characters and understood the story in the subplots I'm now haunted for these kids, if they figured any any of that out. Wow.

[9:47] Speaker 4: One of my favorite stories around the the origin of cats, or at least, you know, it's, it's, it's trip across the pond to Broadway. You know, we can thank a six year old. And for it coming to Broadway, right? Because Bernie Jacobs was the at the top of the Shubert organization, which owned 17 theaters on Broadway, and went to London with his wife, Betty, to see the show when it was making waves in 1981 to see if it would make a good fit for their theaters in New York. And they brought along their six year old grandson, Jared Jacobs and Betty and and Bernie were sort of mystified by the whole experience. You know, they were, at that point, probably in their 60s or 70s at least, and they sat back and were like, What? What is this show? I mean, it's so strange. It doesn't have much of a story. It's kind of outrageous. And their grandson was transfixed. He loved every minute of it. And in fact, the whole reason why Bernie said, let's take a chance on cats is because after it ended, Jared turned them and turned to them and said, Can we see it again? And Jacob and Bernie thought, Well, you look if the kids want to see it again. That's a good sign that this is a show worth taking a bet on. And in fact, the show was sold out. So the next night, they came and Jared sat on the steps in the aisle and saw the show again. And about a year later, it would be on Broadway would win Best Musical and would run 18 years and become the longest running show on Broadway history. So thank you to Jared Jacobs compelling

[11:21] Speaker 5: Mike, I think you need to have Jared Jacobs on the show. If he was oh, I'm sure we could find him and see if he was scarred and see what his experience was, because I guess we do have him to thank for. We wouldn't be none of us would be talking right now, if it weren't for Jared, it's

[11:37] Speaker 3: true. That is true. I'm curious if he caught on to any of this stuff? Did he pick up on any of that stuff? Because I didn't, as an adult watching it, I picked up on some, but, like, I didn't pick up on a lot of the stuff until I read more about it. Yeah, I think

[11:53] Speaker 5: kids are not picking up on any of this. I think, I mean, look, I'm always in favor of keeping children out of the theater, although I want children anywhere and nobody, no, nobody, no, i Exactly, exactly. But I will say that I do. I do. Agree with Rob that. I think that one of the huge reasons that cat and cats endures is the fantasy aspect of it. And I think that, and I think if you also look at the longevity of the original Broadway run. A lot of that was generated by tourists, and tourists who didn't necessarily speak English or speak it well, and yet they were able to fall into the fantasy and go with the show and enjoy it. And I think I'm not, I'm not arguing your point, Mike, because I think you make a very valid point. But I do think on on another level, cats can just be enjoyed if you, if you lean into it and let it happen and don't ask too many questions that sounds negative.

[12:58] Speaker 5: my new show? I mean, I love the notion of Grizabella as a sex worker, but I don't know. I'd be curious what other grizabellas Think about that. Like, what you talked to Mamie Paris, right? You talked to me. What did you did? You ask her, I'm a cat. We did. So we talked a little bit about it. But you know, it's a little hard to be like, Hey, did you think? Yeah, before you came back, what do you think happened here? Yeah, but so we talked a little bit about some other stuff. She's, she was phenomenal. And, I mean, I was lucky I got to see her the second time I saw

[13:25] Speaker 4: the show. Yeah, she was the best of all I've seen live. I mean, because I watched Betty Buckley's iconic Tony Award performance, like, 1000 times, and, you know, I can only imagine what the rest of her performance was like, but maybe it was incredible.

[13:42] Speaker 3: So I do want to this is what I was looking for, is rob your story. So what else am I missing? Like, what else about cats? Not the plot? Like, I can tell you every angle we can take on the plot at this point. But what other parts of the history of like, how it was viewed when it first came on Broadway. What are some of these memorable performances who, who has cats to think for their career, like, what am I missing about this show that that a cat's listener is going to be like, oh, yeah, I can't believe he's never talked about this.

[14:12] Speaker 4: Yeah? Well, I think, you know, the the show itself was groundbreaking in in so many ways, right? And I think that the history around that, you know, has only helped amplify its cultural significance, right? It, first of all, you know, 1981 on the west end was the first really ever dance driven British musical, right? The Brits are not known for for dance, you know, led theater in the way that that the American tradition accounts for, you know, with greats like Bob Fauci and Jerome Robbins. And, you know, there's a great legacy in the American musical theater of director choreographers, or choreographers, you know, creating shows like West Side Story, right, which is so much. Of the storytelling is done through dance. Or Agnes de Mille famously with Oklahoma in 1943 so there's a great tradition of that. And this was Jillian Lynn, the choreographer, who was, you know, the most prestigious choreographer on the West End, stepping in and creating a show where, where the main storytelling device, beyond the words, was dance, and that had never really been done on on a large scale, on the west end. So that was significant in and of itself. And then the show, you know, coming across the pond to New York, kicked off. What is has been termed, I don't know if it's guess, it depends on where you where you fall, but the British invasion of Broadway right, which really began in the 1970s with Jesus Christ, superstar and Evita, but was kicked into hyper drive with cats and as a as a product, as as a brand, cats was unique because David Henry Huang, the playwright, talks about how musicals increasingly behave like movies. And what he's getting at is not necessarily the construction or the performance of them, but the way that they are marketed. And cats was so innovatively marketed as a brand, right? Those two eyes, there's no mistake that that is part of the success of the show is the success of its mark. You see those eyes, you instantly know what the show is, right, and and this, and more so than anything, really. Prior to that, the logo design itself became such a phenomenon and such a part of the culture. And then, then there's, you know, the show itself, which I think is, is very unique to put a statement, yeah, there's nothing quite like it. And as Jamie already alluded to, it doesn't require fluency in the language to enjoy. And is itself, as I've talked about, you know, sort of an enveloping theatrical experience that you know, you rarely see, and certainly at that time, had never really been done to that scale on Broadway. It was, I believe, the mean, it broke all the records when it opened right it had the highest ticket price of $45 if you can imagine. Can imagine, $45 to see a Broadway show and an orchestra seed. Oh my gosh, cut your pearls. You know, it had the largest weekly grosses, the highest advance. It became the longest running show on Broadway history. So all of these are, you know, markers that signify why beyond you know, the show itself. It is. It has such a place of importance in the American musical theater, in musical theater at large, and in the history of theater. And you know, I think the person who best summed it up was Frank Rich, who was the New York Times critic at the time in 1982 and he wrote in his review, and I'm going to quote him here, because I think he just absolutely nailed it. He says, quote, it's a musical that transports the audience into a complete fantasy world that could only exist in the theater, and yet, these days, only rarely does whatever the other failings and excesses, even banalities of cats. It believes in purely theatrical magic, and on that faith, it unquestionably delivers so I think he was tapping into, after his first, or probably second viewing of the show, the very sort of DNA that has made it so successful in all the years since, and that is Its belief in pure theatrical magic and inviting the audience into a world of fantasy in a way that you know, lots of musicals take place in different countries or different time periods. This is a different realm, right? I mean, we are in the realm of cats, and I struggle to think of another show that requires that much of a leap and immerses you in that different of a world, maybe Starlight Express, which was Angela rubbers follow up in 1984 with instead of dancing and singing cats as dancing and singing trains, turns out you can't strike twice, or lightning doesn't strike twice, although it was a huge hit in Europe and continues running In Germany to this day. So that's

[19:24] Speaker 4: if you're not familiar with it, you should check it out. There's a great I'm not familiar but, yeah, no, it's it. We could do a whole thing on Starlight Express. But that's my long winded answer to your very simple but important question about, you know what? What makes the show endure? Jamie, I don't know if you have thoughts you want to there's literally

[19:43] Speaker 5: nothing to add to that. You literally covered all of the bases. I will say, though I think it's important, because one of the problems, or not a problem, but one of the disservices that's happened with cats over the years is it's become a bit of a joke, right? And it's. The butt of jokes. It's, it's, it's, it's. In our culture, in in many different ways, there have been plays in movies where cats is considered a joke. There's somebody's an actor in cats, and that's the joke, whatever it is. In its day, when it opened on Broadway, cats was a huge success. As Rob mentioned, Frank Rich gave it a great review in the New York Times, and it was the hottest ticket. And also it was part of the cultural zeitgeist in the early 80s that the the cats, actors became celebrities in their own right, and, and, and that was a big deal. They did television commercials. They did PSAs. You can see a lot of them. Mike, you probably know this, they're on YouTube. You can see they're smoking PSA, and they're, you know, they're driving PSAs and all of those. And you know, not a lot of shows before that, or since then, have actually done those, those, you know, similar PSAs, or just entered the culture that in that fashion. So I think it's important to remember that everybody loved cats originally, and it wasn't until much later that people started to, you know, want to take a crack at it.

[21:12] Speaker 3: So that's a an incredible point, because it is like a butt of joke on a modern family episode. And an American, not American, what's it? Family Guy episode. And there's all kinds of different versions that take a crack at it. And I think where I've struggled having seen it, and again, being a little bit like I've seen a decent amount of Broadway now, living in the city, but I would, I'm by no means an expert. I'm a fan, you know, just someone who goes and there are plenty of shows that I've seen that I'm like, This is so entertaining, so well done, and then it ends because the theater already was promised to something else, or there's some other thing. It's usually not because of ticket sales. It's like something else has caused this. And this is maybe more into the industry than than there is. But how did this show that kind of at later on, 18 years, at some point it was part of that joke. How did it keep going? Like, how did that sustain longer than all these other things that are having? You know, there's been a few recently even that's had incredible success, and then it just it ended. The run ended, and something else took on its place. And is that more of a current times and recency bias of like, what modern theater looks like, or did they fight that and they just won, because the show sustained better than anything else.

[22:28] Speaker 5: Well, I think it's, I think the original reception of cats that we just talked about has a huge lasting impact in the the brand of the show and in the in in the the enduring quality of cats. And I also think the fact that you know you that you don't need to speak the language or speak English to enjoy cats helped its longevity hugely. I think that's that's not to do. And I think also Andrew Lloyd Webber himself and and his his work and and Phantom and all of his shows combined. I think how you know cats was sort of, as Rob said earlier, cats was really the first of those. And I think it in there's a reason why it has lasted as long as it has, because it's good. People enjoy it. But it's also like the, sort of the granddaddy, if you will, of that type of theater. And it was very inventive. Yeah,

[23:31] Speaker 4: yeah. I think, you know, the key to really understanding the from from an industry perspective, you know the show's impact and and longevity, you know, is just the changing nature of Broadway itself, right? And it's sort of which came first thing, right? Chicken or egg. You know, in the 1970s for those who don't know, you know, Broadway was in a really, really, you know, tough time, right? There were empty theaters all throughout Midtown. Shows were coming and going. There was, you know, the American theater was declared dead as many times as New York City was declared dead in that time, you know, the city was bankrupt. It was a dangerous place, high crime, you know, etc, right. So, all of that was the environment in which cats, you know, arrived in 1982 and October 1982 on Broadway and a chorus line in the 1970s in the mid 1970s was, you know, an unbridled sensation, and went a long way towards saving Broadway. And, you know, by virtue of that, saving New York City, really, by making it a tourist destination and cats was sort of the next great phenomenon, you know, I guess you could argue, 42nd street in 1980 you know, was also, you know, sort of a parallel success. And that show ran from 1980 to 1989 so had also, you know, major longevity. The cats, you know, sort of arrived and surfed the tide of that changing dynamic of. Theater in New York City, and would go on to eclipse A Chorus Line to become the longest running show in Broadway history in 1997 but just to give you a sense of how much Broadway has become tourist driven in the years since, annual Broadway attendance doubled from the 1984 1985 season to the present, right? So in 1984 1985 attendance was 7.2 million across the board. And in the present, or the last year for which there were numbers, which I think is 2018 it was 14 point 7 million, right? So the industry doubled over a period of 30 years. And what that meant is, you know, more butts in the seats, right? And where were those butts going? They were going to the Winter Garden Theater to see cats. They were going to see Phantom of the Opera at the Majestic Theater. They were seeing 42nd street, which were played at three theaters throughout the 1980s they were seeing a chorus line. These shows arrived and became destinations for tourists, which Broadway had always been somewhat more parochial, even, you know, in its heyday, the golden age of musical theater, you know, the show is toward, right? So folks didn't necessarily come to New York to see the latest hit show, right? Because it would be touring. And you know, that was just the nature of of, you know, of the industry, and the making of Broadway as a tourist destination is a more recent thing that sort of came along at the same time as cats, right? So these things were happening at the same time, and it really surfed the tide and became sort of the paradigm for for the industry,

[26:35] Speaker 3: yeah? So kind of they, yeah. I mean, that's, it's so interesting to hear that, because it's, I'm, I'm knowledgeable on the Broadway stuff, of the tourist version of that, because right back into New York, I came to see a couple sporting events and a couple Broadway shows. And that was our trip to New York every, every time we came. And so that's that is kind of a unique parallel that I just didn't know a lot about. I want to change gears a little bit though about some of the most famous performances, and especially if anybody who really got their start on cats, but is super well known for something else, or who is I mean, I guess I the thing I've struggled with is, if you take out the 2016 revival cast, generally, someone says, Oh, do you know this person, this person and that person? And I had no idea that they were in cats. I had no idea sometimes, who they are. And that's where it gets kind of fun. But now I'm starting to realize that, like, there's a lot of people have done this because it's been around for so long, somebody's done a version of cats or the Broadway show, and there's still, it's been a part of their career. So what are the, what are the main performances that, like, I should know about outside of the revival

[27:53] Speaker 5: James? Well, I think I'll talk about actors first. And I think that, you know, cats is a Broadway animal content nailed it. So by that, I mean, if you look at and in fact, Frank Rich says this in his review, where he talks about the, I'm gonna paraphrase here, but a collection of great singer dancers, right? That's what he calls the company. You wouldn't call the company of cats that today if it opened right? Because the demands of a singer, dancer, a performer, an actor, are much different these days, right? Everybody has to be a triple threat. But in those days, all those cats, all those actors, were triple threats. We just didn't really understand or talk that term wasn't really a big deal. So you're looking at the original company that had Harry groaner. Harry groaner would go on to great acclaim. He was sort of known in when he did cats, but he would go on to great acclaim with crazy for you, for example, several years later, Terence Mann, the original Rum Tum Tugger, has been working steadily ever since he was the original Javert in Les Mis on Broadway. He was very recently in that fantastic Pippin revival, and literally working non stop every show in between. So you know, and, and it's, there's, there's many, many people like that, not only in the original company, but also in the tours. And I think that it may not have launched a mega superstar, right, like an Ariana Grande or someone like that, but what it did do is it gave many, many actors that we know who were constantly that we, by Broadway standards, think of as being very famous. It gave them, you know, their start. And the other thing I'll also say is that the role of Grizabella has been a great certainly in the length of the run of the original production. You know, Liz Calloway, who was fairly well known in those days, went in and did a very long run. I'm. Assuming she's the Grizabella. You saw Rob in the in 98 Do you remember? Yeah, remember? Yeah, I'd have to pull the playbill. Yeah, I'm I'm guessing you saw her. Is, is my guess? I saw Kim Chris? Well, who was, who was marvelous, and she went in and out of the run on Broadway before moving to London to work in theater there. So I guess what I'm saying is that I don't know if there are any superstars, per se that are actors, but certainly the great crop of Broadway actors and actresses that we know of today, lot of them went through cats. It was a lot of people's first show, yeah,

[30:38] Speaker 4: you know, I mean, and it's, it's an ensemble piece by its very nature, right? I mean, there are a few, you know, more principal characters who, you know, get to anchor songs and have big moments, but for the most part, it is an ensemble piece. And you know, part of what made all of these British shows such long runners is that none of them were reliant on on a box office star, right? Cats was not relying on a box on a box office star. It wasn't so and so in cats. It was just cats, right? It's and it's never so and so in Les Mis or so and so in Miss Saigon or or so and so in femur, the opera. I mean, Michael Crawford and Sarah Bradman were stars, but the show was the real star. And I think that is, you know, part of the reason why there isn't some list of great Hollywood, you know, stars who have come out of cats, because, as Jamie pointed out, you know, they were cast to be, you know, dancers, singers and actors and to be triple threats, and they were theater people. They came out of the theater world. But I, I went back and looked at a list, and there, actually, there are three big choreographer directors who were in in cats, Rob Marshall, who went on to become very successful on Broadway, and of course, directed the night the 2002 film of Chicago, which won Best Picture. Christopher getelli, who works very frequently in New York on Broadway. And of course, Andy blanken Bueller, who did the revised choreography for the 2016 revival. So we can thank Katz for at least those three great, prolific Broadway choreographers. And you know, when I went to see the 30th anniversary performance of Phantom of the Opera Hal Prince, the director and producer of that show at the curtain call, gave a speech. And what he said that I stayed with me since is he listed all the all the numbers, right? You know, the show is made, has played this many performances. We've made this much money, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then he paused and said, but the thing that I'm most proud of is this number, and I don't remember what the number is right now, but off the top of my head, but he gave the number of people who have been employed by the show. And he was proudest most of the fact that the Phantom of the Opera over its 30 years had employed, you know, 5000 people or whatever. And I think you could say the same thing about cats, right? If you look at at the list, the very distinguished list of folks who were on Broadway, but also who did tours all around the world, is this show employed a ton of really, really talented people and gave them an opportunity to showcase that talent eight times a week. And I'm always blown away every time I see the show by how physically demanding it is. You know, we're just there as an audience. We're enjoying it, and we get to go home. But first of all, the makeup alone, I don't know how they do it, but the fact that they are dancing, you know, like non stop for what is it? Two hours and 45 minutes? It's a long it's a long show. You know, it requires a certain discipline and an extraordinary work ethic and talent, right? And so any number of the people who were in it on Broadway, I think, could rightfully claim, you know, to be stars in their own right because of just the accomplishment it is to be in cats,

[33:53] Speaker 5: I also want to say, and not to put too fine a point on it, but this is something we discussed with Betty Buckley, the original Grizabella on our show, the fabulous invalid, and that is when they were rehearsing cats. Originally, you have to remember that the director was Trevor Nunn, who came from the Royal Shakespeare Company. He was a very serious director who had directed very serious shows. And Betty mentioned to us that when they were rehearsing cats and when they were exploring the characters and doing all of that, they all took their jobs very seriously. And I think people forget that. You know, again, this is part of the problem with the legacy of cats. It's become the butt of all these jokes. But in its day, all of those actors, and I would imagine every actor that's gone into cats and every touring company and the revival they all take that job very seriously. These cats have backstories. These cats have lives, nine lives. Maybe, I know that seems silly to say, but I think it's an important piece of why cats is so enduring, is that it is a very are. Full piece of theater. And that goes from the very beginning of the of the show, when they were all constructing it, both in England and here in New York.

[35:10] Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, you know, it has an extraordinary pedigree. And I, I made a joke earlier about Starlight Express. I mean, I would argue that one of the reasons why Starlight Express was not as successful or acclaimed as cats. Is Angela Weber wasn't collaborating with one of the great writers of the English language, right? TS Eliot was an extraordinary poet and writer, and someone who, you know, has just impeachable credentials as a literary figure, right? So there is great wit and intelligence in those lyrics, which, you know, in those poems, right? Even though they were written for children, they contain so many specific references to British history and British culture, and are themselves very artfully written. I think Jamie, you're right, that's the perfect word to describe it. There's so much craft in the poems themselves, which were then musicalized by whether you like them or hate them. You cannot deny that Android Webber is an extraordinary composer, one of the greats of all time for musical theater. And the synergy of Android Webber and TS Eliot's work is what elevates cats. And then, of course, you add in Trevor Nunn, who also, you know, came with an extraordinary pedigree. And then actors like, you know, Betty Buckley, right, who one could argue, has been responsible for revolutionizing the way that people act and sing on Broadway right, starting in the night in the late 1960s with her, her turn in 1776, introducing, you know, very grounded interior form of acting to Broadway in musical theater, specifically, you know, that was, that was Betty. That's part of what makes her such an extraordinary legend. So I forget what the question was, but I just wanted to ramble on about TSL, well,

[37:05] Speaker 5: the original, the mike, the original question was, are we pro cats or are not? And I think, Boy, I think we've answered. You've

[37:12] Speaker 3: established an answer. There's a there's a part that that you both have said that I very much agree with, which is, it's easy to poke fun at, and, you know, I've done that. It's part of the premise of this whole podcast, is the writing of of this. Now, I've taken the angle of just the plot and the story writing, but I do think there is a lot of like, it's hard to explain. It's different. You kind of get lost in it. And so it's easy to it's easy to make jokes when you leave it. And then the most recent movie did just amplify that, but when you but when not helpful, that felt when you watch it, like when I did walk out. I kept thinking the whole time. I kept thinking about the Mungo Jared ripple teaser dance scene, and going, they're singing and dancing. And, you know, you say triple threat, like I'm a zero threat, and I'm watching all three of the like them do all these numbers and all these things. And then, you know, hearing any Grizabella belt out that song as someone who can't sing, and it's just like, this isn't a talent. And then I learned after that, it's so much effort goes into it that they have booth singers, which, to me, is something I didn't know existed, and I don't think it exists in many other shows, but it takes, you know, they take it serious, because it's such an incredible performance. It takes giving a lot to that craft. And you can kind of plug in poke fun at like the the 2016 cast, they have their three words and the backstory and what they're kind of like, how they're interacting with with each other, to who's who's parent, and here's who's who's sister. But the everything about the show is impressive. The set design is incredible. It's very well thought out. It's kind of there's a little bit of more improv available in a show than I think I've ever seen with some other stuff, which looks very 100% choreographed. And so I see that, I definitely can feel that. But I also

[38:58] Speaker 5: think I'm sorry to cut you off. But I also think the set is something we haven't really touched on, that that, you know, it's funny to think of it now, but that was one of the early sort of immersive theatrical experiences. Because when you walked into the Winter Garden Theater, you, you know, they they gutted certain aspects of the theater, and they lowered the ceiling and they covered up the proscenium, and the entire theater was was turned into this junkyard, right? So the minute you walked in the door, you knew, Oh, this isn't your normal show, right? Like, I'm not in what I'm used to experiencing when I walk into a Broadway theater, and I think that's a huge part of, again, why it was such a phenomenon in its day, because that really wasn't something that was done very often, and it was extraordinary, so much so that I believe, as the run went on during the intermission, they let people come up on the set. Am I am I think? Yes, yeah. Was

[40:00] Speaker 3: not prepared for that. I actually found I have a picture in my phone, because I was like, is he supposed to be up there? Still, like I was, I was very confused. And then the second time I saw it, everyone went up to go take selfies with them, and that, to me, is just like the epitome of modern social media is going to show and getting your Old Deuteronomy picture. Now, I would wish I could have had that opportunity, because I've been like, I want to be the delicate choice. I would have sat down and asked him, What do I need to do? Right to be picked in the second act?

[40:30] Speaker 5: But I think it was originally. You have to bear in mind that when they started doing that in the original run, social media wasn't a thing. So it was truly pride right to and and, you know, you could take a cynical view that it was also a gimmick to get people back into the theater, sure, perhaps, but I think it was also just pride in the fact that, like, you know, there's a giant tire, there's a giant this, there's, you know, everything is oversized and scaled to be in the perspective of the cats. And that's remarkable and worth, I think, worth touting. Well,

[41:02] Speaker 3: I think it's sticking to Old Deuteronomy. Role as judge and jury is he's not leaving, staying over there to make sure he's making his decision. And that's kind of how I thought about the second time I saw it, when I kind of had a better, at least somewhat of an idea of what I was watching, and I was like, Oh, this okay, I get some a little bit of the poetry here of him doing this. But I also, at the same time, I just kept going, What actor in their right mind would give up your 15 minutes of relaxation in this, like chaotic, busy, like exhausting show, and your job is to now take 100 selfies instead of going to sit in the back, you know, backstage and whatever they're doing, grabbing water, just like relaxing that person eight times a week sat there and took selfies instead of an intermission.

[41:54] Speaker 4: No disrespect to whoever plays older, Donnie, but I, I do think his track is a little bit easier, right? Comes about 15 and 20 minutes into the show. Okay? At certain times, you know

[42:08] Speaker 3: that's fair. Okay, so I do want to talk about the most recent movie, yeah, what were your what were your takes? Just, how did you feel? I mean, it's, it's, now, there's been some time. It's almost a year. Angela Webber has already distanced himself from it. There's Jason Derulo says that it was going to change thought is going to change the world like, it's just, there's extreme, yeah, it's the beginning of 2020. It's, it might have caused all this pandemic, but, no, I mean, it's just like, there's, there's still polarizing. Yeah, there's a lot of memes about that means about that, but there's it's just it was a polarizing show, and now it was even more polarizing movie, and even coming after everything that happened with it, not making as much money as I thought, it's still polarizing. Like there's still stuff about once a month, there's something that comes out about it. So what were your I mean, did you see it? When did you see it? What was your experience like? Yeah,

[43:05] Speaker 4: well, I believe I saw it, if not opening day, shortly thereafter. And actually, I took my niece with me, my seven year old niece, and it was her introduction to it. She was excited to go. She loved it. She loved every minute of it. She thought it was really fun and interesting. And she's more of a dog person, so, I mean, there you go. Well, first of all, I was always skeptical from the second it was announced, right? Because there is already a cats movie the 1998 taping of the London production that is really spectacular and captures, you know, the experience of seeing the show. And is very, you know, artfully done. It's very well, well produced, well edited and and is, is the show is, is the thing, right? And, as Frank Rich said, you know, it is cat is a thing that can only exist in the theater. So the idea of making a a full length, you know, picture of it using, you know, in some sort of reality, right? Which I guess they tried to create in this world, you know that 1998 film, it's very clearly there. It's very clear they're on stage, right there. It's very clear they're not cats, right? It. You have to bring your own imagination to it, and just as you do seeing the show live. So I was always skeptical that they were going to be able to pull off film version, you know, that would successfully translate what works so well on stage to screen, which is always hard to do for any musical, right? I mean, cabaret and West Side Story are outliers, right? Most, most musical adaptations to film aren't that successful. If you actually go back and look at them, you know, a lot of them are adored and loved because of a certain performance, or because of the music or whatever. But as films, you know, a lot of musicals Don't, don't really stage musicals don't really make great, great films. So I was very skeptical. The whole digital fur technology announcement made me even more concerned. And, but I have to say, when I first saw the trailer for it, I got very excited. I thought the trailer was thrilling. And unfortunately, the end result, you know, to quote the president, it is what it is, you know, I, I, I, my take on it when it came out, and everybody's asking, you know, what do you think of the cats? What do you think of the cast movie? I just said to them, it's it's cats, right? I mean, the film itself, yet it almost feels beyond critique, um, because of just the very nature of what it is. There were parts of it that I think worked very well, but I think fundamentally, and I might get in trouble for saying this, Tom Hooper, the director, right, who made the film of Les Mis, the unfortunate film of Les Mis, I think just didn't understand the assignment. I think that he did not understand what cats is fundamentally, I don't think he had enough of relationship to the stage experience to successfully translate it to film. And in fact, the only person beyond beyond Angelo Weber, I believe, who was involved in making the film, who had any sort of tether to the stage musical, was, it was Andy blankenbueler Who did the choreography. And unfortunately, Tom Hooper didn't really showcase a lot of that choreography in the way the film was shot and in the way it was edited, right? The Jellicle Ball there's you can you see it at certain moments, you're like, oh, wow, there's really great dancing happening, but I can't see it because of the way this movie's been cut, right? So little things like that, I think, suggest to me that perhaps, perhaps with the right director there, there was a great movie to be had, but we got what we got,

[46:52] Speaker 5: take what Rob said for 200 you know, I, I agree with Rob. I actually saw it with Rob. He was gracious enough to his

[47:08] Speaker 4: my in some ways, yes, in

[47:11] Speaker 5: some ways, I'm like Rob's child, but, or poor relation, but, no, we went back. He went back a second time and saw it with me. And I will say that it was a was a very full day. We recorded our show that morning, we went and had a bite to eat, and we saw an afternoon, late afternoon performance or late afternoon screening of the film, and then we went to a show that night as something at CSC or vineyard. I guess it was a very full day, and the cats film was the least interesting part of that day for me. So I was not as I you know, it had some moments. I will say there's a thing about seeing or experiencing cats with Rob that can make even a non believer, a believer he has, he has, well, it's true. He has such a love for this show. And it's it taps very deeply into, I think, everything that Rob loves about theater, and everything that makes rob a true believer in theater, and that is never more evident than when you are listening to cats, listening to a podcast about cats with Rob, or seeing the show or the film, and so on that level, it was enjoyable, but I do agree that it was a much better film version of the stage show in 98 I will say, though, because I did re watch it in prep for this, for this interview. Well, you all know that, but what I will say, What I didn't remember because I hadn't seen it in years, there's no applause and there's no so the numbers lie. They they lie. They lay a little flat because there's no which I think was just the the fashion of video at that time, they were trying to make it seem like it wasn't in the theater, even though it was. I'm not really sure we'd have to ask whoever directed it, but they

[49:10] Speaker 3: did. They I didn't think they shot that with a crowd. No, I don't think there's an audience. And I think they did a like a performance without an audience, right?

[49:21] Speaker 5: No. And in fact, that's a lot of pro shots. You know, you do, you do one with an audience, so you get the reaction, and you do most of it without an audience. I hope I'm not, I'm not lifting the lid on a great secret. But the point is that they, they could have even put in canned applause or something. They're just there because there's no like

[49:42] Speaker 4: the show. They didn't either the songs end and there's there you're waiting for applause, is what you're

[49:47] Speaker 5: saying. Yeah, it just felt a little it fell a little flat on that level. However, as a as a representation of the show, I don't think you could do any better than that job

[49:57] Speaker 3: with with that and then I. And appreciated the the 1998 effects of adding lightning bolts from of course, and that high, that high tech that was added in there a few freeze

[50:11] Speaker 5: frames that you know, that you know are questionable. It

[50:16] Speaker 3: is what lives on YouTube as well, in isolation, so in parts from their actual page. So that's a great way to watch it, because you get to see the number. You don't expect the advice, because it just says like and subscribe or whatever, you know at the end of the video, and it's ready to move on. But that's that was most of my research for this show, and which is why a lot of my frame of reference comes from just viewing that movie and then viewing those clips to get a better understanding. And, and that's, again, I've seen it twice, and, and that and the new movie once, one and a half times, because we I rented it to try to show my family on our TV. And we got halfway through, and they said, Does it get any better? And I said, not really. It's pretty much more of this. And they said, Okay, we're good, and we turned on something else. So I've seen it one and a half times, which is good, because the ending was freaked me out with Judy Dench like screaming at Yeah,

[51:09] Speaker 5: right, yeah, yeah. It definitely the film version of cats poses more questions than it answers, that's for sure. And

[51:16] Speaker 4: ironically, I feel like it was working overdrive to answer some of the questions that surround cats, right? I mean, when I saw the trailer in my one note, other than, Oh, this looks pretty good, is there's so much talking. Why is there so much talk? For sure, has no talking, right? No. I mean, I will say, in the film's defense, Ian McKellen gives a great performance. Serious work in the middle of that film. Jennifer Hudson, sounds phenomenal as always, right? And I enjoyed skimble Shanks, I guess I always do right? It's a highlight of the show for me. But I thought that sequence was the closest we got to tapping into sort of what makes the show successful, and could make it successful on screen. And that is, they left that weird ballroom, abandoned theater set, which, again, felt like such a cop out, like, if you're gonna make the movie, make the movie, why are we sitting in one location for so long when you can do anything in a movie? That's the reason you make a movie. That's the reason you adapt something into a movie. Is there are no limits. In the theater, you're bounded by so many things. Theater is all, as Matthew Lopez said to us, theater is all about limitations, right? It's about what you can't do. Film is about what you can do. And in that scene, they broke the wall, and suddenly they were, you know, he was tap dancing on that railroad track. And like, I wanted to see more moments like that in the film that would take liberties, that would push beyond, you know, what the text might suggest at first glance, or what the show did on stage, and just try to, you know, Judge around the edges. That was a moment that truly felt cinematic, right, which is what you want in a movie. So that, I will say again, to defend the film. That was one, one highlight for me

[53:02] Speaker 3: there. I mean, there are parts to that movie that are, I still think it has another, another life coming in the future of a Rocky Horror type of,

[53:11] Speaker 4: Oh, totally Yeah, fan culture around the show itself. And then, you know, the film too, yeah. So

[53:18] Speaker 3: I want to pivot to the, the the one debate that I've, I've had with everybody, which is the premise that I don't think grizabell was the right Jellicle choice. So do you agree or disagree with me? And if you are going to defend to Grizzle, I want to hear your defense. And if you're going to pick somebody else, give me the reason why you think it's that cat.

[53:39] Speaker 4: Well, oddly enough, this is a question that I had entertained prior to the existence of your podcast. So I'm very grateful that your podcast does exist, because it really pokes at this inquiry I have always thought. I mean, first of all, I'm not particularly perturbed by Grizabella being the Jellicle choice. I think there's a great lesson in that choice, I think in the arc of her characters over the course of the show and her interaction with the other cats. I think that Old Deuteronomy is is sending a message to the other cats, classic redemption story, right? Exactly, right, right. I need not go further. But there's one other cat who I thought was always worthy of being the Jellicle choice, and that's Gus the theater cat. First of all, I just love that sequence of the show, and I find that character, much like Grizabella, to be very sympathetic. And you know, clearly he's very old, lived quite a life. So I feel like for those reasons alone, he would be worthy of being the Jellicle choice, if only they could make two. Or maybe he'll be next. I mean, if there was a next year. There was a sequel to cats, cats too, and they did it all over again. Maybe, maybe he would be, he's not necessarily my favorite cat, although I, like I said, I do love Gus, but, yeah, I would make an argument that he is equally, if not more, deserving of being, of being the choice

[55:19] Speaker 3: big, Team Gus, so you're there's a lot of arguments for that, Jamie, where do you fall? There

[55:24] Speaker 5: is one Jellicle choice, and that is Grizabella. So I am firm believer that the right choice was made. I think that. I think Grizabella makes her own case beautifully with her song memory. So I think she stops the show, or we hope she does. I think they that they maybe, maybe one of them didn't quite but most of the others have. And I will say that, you know, in all seriousness, I do think if you're gonna, if you're gonna break it down and look at it like that, to me, Grizabella is the obvious choice. She's, she's arguably lived the tougher life. She's arguably, you know, been alienated from the rest of the group. She's a loner. She has a lot of backstory that we probably don't know about. Obviously, she's lived it hard, and I think it's time for her to move on and get a second chance. And I think, you know, as you said, it's a classic redemption story, and I don't see what's wrong with that.

[56:25] Speaker 3: I don't either. Well, I interpreted it.

[56:30] Speaker 5: Well, okay, so, but Mike, who do you think is the right choice?

[56:35] Speaker 3: So I've said it, and I'll stick to I'll stick to it. I saw the show the very first time with Leona Lewis as Grizabella. It was all I knew going in is that it was going to be cats and Leona Lewis was going to be grizzabella. So I went in thinking, what do I know Leona Lewis for? She had saying bleeding love was her hit, and she was on The X Factor. So when I walked out of the show and I saw Cat, cat, cat, cat, cat, all doing their performances with a judge, then picking one to win. I immediately was like, I just watched the weirdest version of a competition show and and that was, that was the premise. That's what how I interpreted the entire show, and that's kind of the way I still kind of look at it, is they're all singing for the opportunity to win to be the Jellicle choice, and Old Deuteronomy is Simon Cowell. So for me, having come from that one and only one frame of reference, I viewed Old Deuteronomy as Simon Cowell. And I said, What pairing or what group am I going to make together? And to me, there was two actors and performances that stood out that were incredible. Now, if you're going to argue from your angles, probably don't deserving pretty young, maybe won't be there, but they're also the one that has the most fan fiction for it. So I went with tuxophales, tug of police, whatever version you want to however you want, however you want to pronounce it. And I want rum tuck Tugger. And I want Mr. Most athletes together to go little Burton Ernie style, to ascend to every satellite together as winners of the competition for having two of the most entertaining numbers, if I'm purely judging it from that competition. And that's why, why. That's my whole angle, how I wrote it, how I thought about it, how I viewed it the first time. And I understand all of the arguments, the easiest arguments, Team Gus grisabelle has a very clear argument. There's a couple others you could probably make, and a lot that you could say they're not ready. You know, you could argue Jenny Annie dots and Joey Lorem and a couple others. There are some clear, very clear arguments of why. But I'm taking the two that I thought were showstoppers, and I have the most extreme fan fiction written about them, if you ever want to, like,

[58:53] Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, I went for the best performances. There's also,

[59:02] Speaker 5: I you know, Mike, I have to say I like your premise, I like your thesis, I like your way you're going with all of this. I just wonder, and I'm probably not the first person to say this to you, if you had had a stronger Grizabella, would you feel differently?

[59:18] Speaker 3: I don't think it's if I had a stronger Grizzle. I think if you would have taken Leona Lewis as an X factor component out of this, taken her completely out of it, and put anybody else there, I don't think I would have registered the show as being that competition. I probably would have walked out and said, Oh, this was kind of like, you know, fun number, and got a little bit more lost in it. But really early on, I realized that they're all trying to win, with Old Deuteronomy as judge, and with her being most famous from the show. It was the entire time, all I thought about and so that was again, like I think you could have, if you would have friend, this podcast probably wouldn't exist if, and. Anybody else performed, I didn't see that original cast, or anybody else was Grizabella. I probably would have never pieced that together.

[60:06] Speaker 5: Okay, all right, I'm I'm with you. That's my that's

[60:10] Speaker 3: my argument. That's my angle. There's no the beauty of cats is there's no right or wrong answers to any of these questions.

[60:15] Speaker 5: Right? Because it's just about cats. This is just cats

[60:21] Speaker 3: amazing. Okay, so I do want to ask, like, what else? What else did you want to ask me?

[60:28] Speaker 5: Well, you answered the question I wanted to know, yeah, so that that that box has been ticked for me. So thank you for that. Okay,

[60:36] Speaker 3: yes, as the outsider looking in with only experience of one, one show, and then just watched a bunch of other ones.

[60:45] Speaker 5: Yeah, but I will say, I will say, and I'm not saying this just because we're guests on your show. You always have really good insight into it. You're, you're, I think about it, you're very thoughtful about it. But I also think your lack of knowledge about and your lack of real long jet like long history with the show, I think really informs your viewpoints. I think it's what makes what you think and what you feel about the show so interesting.

[61:10] Speaker 4: Yeah, well, it's the reason why you know, as a sometimes theater critic, which I haven't done in a very long time, because we've been shut down, I love to know as little as possible about anything before I walk into it, right? So I try to, I try to channel you, Mike, when I'm seeing a new musical, because I don't want to come in with any preconceived notions, right? I want to experience it as as fresh as I can, as as much in a vacuum as I can, at least initially. And then, of course, you know, afterwards I'll read, I'll read more, and I'll research or whatever. And you know, if I'm seeing a revival, that's different, but if I'm seeing something new, you know, I always try to try to come in with that that but

[61:49] Speaker 3: as someone who's very knowledgeable in theater, don't you have some idea of what's going to be happening, like you might not know what performances look out for, but you have a general idea of what most of The story is

[62:01] Speaker 4: going to be, right? Well, it depends on the show, right? I mean, if it's something brand new, or, you know, the that's been recently put together, like, I'm trying to think of, you know, shows I saw this season, like girl from the North Country, right, the Bob Dylan musical, right? I mean, I walked into that knowing basically nothing. I don't know Bob Dylan song catalog all that well. I know, you know, probably the top hit songs that everyone knows. I didn't know the story. I knew generally the setting, which I deduced from some production photos I had seen. But beyond that, you know, I just sat in the theater and took it all in, right? I mean, if it's something like, Hello Dolly, then I'm seeing the revival. You know, it's Hello Dolly, right? I mean, that's in the culture. I know the history around the show. I know the score to death. I saw it a million times growing up. I've seen the movie, you know. So that's a different experience. And it's I'm coming to that, you know, with with a wealth of knowledge about the history of the show, and that's even, you know, the score and construction of it. But if I'm seeing something new, which, in your case, when you first saw cats, right, you didn't know any of the history about it, right? I mean, or the score at all, right? I mean, did you know memory? Everyone knows memory, yeah. But beyond that, you didn't really, you didn't really know anything, right? So I find that going to the theater with that sort of mindset allows you to have sort of the most pure of a reaction, right? The you can tap into the truest way that you feel about something, because it's not colored by, you know, what others have said or written about it, or even what your own perception of it prior to seeing it? Yeah,

[63:35] Speaker 3: I will say in my so when I moved to New York, I was my company put me in temporary housing right in the heart of the theater district. So I was there for a little over a month. And the first week I was there, I saw, I believe the show was called Blackbird with Jeff Daniels and Michelle Williams. Had no idea what that was about, walking in, I just said, Jeff Daniels and Michelle Williams. I don't want to spoil that if anyone sees it, but that was a very eye opening show. And then the other one I did is I got lottery tickets. I won lottery tickets because I was just like, hey, what's what's there? I'm literally living here, like, right next to it. I can walk at any point. And I saw Fun Home. And also had no idea what that was. Well, I was like, I just heard it one to Tony, or there was some, you know, some strong performances. And the tickets were very inexpensive with lottery. And I was like, Oh, that's great. And I'm like, Oh, fun. Home stands for funeral home. So I've now gotten to the point where I'll still go see anything anybody wants to throw my way, but I at least kind of read a little bit of a synopsis before I go in, because Cass was the third one I was there after cats. Was like, All right, it's time. It's time to just like, at least do a little sub reading here before you go on. I don't need to be spoiled. I don't need to kind of have it. But like, am I going to see something very dark or very serious or very uplifting and fun and funny?

[64:54] Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I will say my approach is that of someone who's coming at it, you know, with. The idea that I'm going to write about it, right? So I so I'm trying to be as objective. I mean, that's a terrible word, but, you know, trying to be as open minded, I guess I should say about about things. I am not a typical theater goer in that, in that sense, right? Most people are in the marketplace, and they're making a decision informed by their own taste, their pocketbook, what they've heard from people, I mean, that it's the reason why Broadway is a tourist destination, right? And is a billion dollar industry. So, you know, there's certainly a lot of a lot of worth to doing a little bit of pre work before, sure, just a little bit,

[65:42] Speaker 3: how the most important questions? How can we listen to your show? What else are you working on? And how can we find you on social

[65:55] Speaker 4: Well, I am on Twitter for better for worse. At Stage Left underscore NYC. And stage left is my blog, so stage left dot NYC, where I review shows. I'm currently not doing that because I like to review live experiences as opposed to virtual offerings. A little snooty about that, so, but you can find my archive of writing there. I've been covering Theater in New York since 2017 very consistently. So that's all there. And then I also have a podcast version of my blog called stage left, the podcast I know, very clever title, which is also a member of the Broadway Podcast Network. So you can find those episodes on iTunes as well as on the BPN website. And then we're here, of course, as co host of the fabulous invalid. So Jamie, take it away. Yes, if you

[66:46] Speaker 5: like what we think or have to say about theater, you can find our show, the fabulous invalid, on the Broadway Podcast Network. So at Broadway podcast network.com Am I getting that right? I should probably know that. Or you could also look for us on our website, which is the fabulous invalid.com and if you want to hear or see me Stan about Angela, Alan, Barry or Lee Remick, you can go to my Twitter account, which is at Jamie Duma, j, A M, i e, d, U, M, o n t that's us, and that's Pretty much us. Yeah, amazing.

[67:21] Speaker 3: Well, thank you guys, both for for joining me, for indulging and educating me on on cats. I hope, I hope this was everything you wanted it to be. Oh,

[67:31] Speaker 5: it was, and more I am. I would be lying if I said that I have not been looking forward to this for a week.

[67:37] Speaker 4: I seek all opportunities to talk about cats. They're on tape or not, so this made my day.

[67:43] Speaker 3: I'm glad that there is a platform for you to express your cat's feelings.

[67:56] Speaker 3: Thank you for listening to this episode with Jamie Dumont and Robert Zoe from the fabulous implement on the wrong cat died. The podcast breakdown of the catastrophe. To follow along. You can subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, or anywhere else listen to podcasts. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram at the wrong cat died, or check us out on our website, the roncat died.com, you.