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[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande. Hi, I'm Cynthia Erivo, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network, visit vpm.fm to discover more.

[0:13] Speaker 2: There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. I'm the one good night. I'm the one good night. I welcome

[0:20] Speaker 3: to

[0:30] Speaker 4: the wrong cat died. The podcast breakdown of the cat's atrophy. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another very fun episode. My guests today are extremely knowledgeable in the theater world. They're the co host of Broadway world and the Broadway podcast networks next year, some year and broken records. They are also hosting a show called cast offs at Club Cummings Every Monday and Wednesday in New York, featuring some previous grizabellas So Ben river hour and Daniel Nolan. Welcome to the wrong cat died. And thank you for joining me. We

[0:56] Speaker 5: are so happy to be here. Meow, meow, and they can't see me, but I'm I'm licking and grooming myself in the zoom.

[1:06] Speaker 4: You're doing the practice for the show, which is what they called felinity school in cats.

[1:11] Speaker 5: Oh, Miss Nolan's felinity School for Girls.

[1:17] Speaker 4: Well, I want to talk about cast offs, but before we do. I mean, this is a cat's podcast, so we got to set the record straight. It's cats off tonight. On exactly, cats off. I want to hear about your experiences with the show. So like, when did you first see it? I'm assuming you both have seen it at least once. Like, tell me a little bit about your history, at least.

[1:39] Ben Rimmel: Well, I was living in LA when the show opened, but my mom bought the double LP of the Broadway cast recording with MS Betty Buckley and and the rest of the gang, and she would it was one of the few albums that, I mean, I could probably count on my hands and feet, all the records my mother ever played for us when we were kids, maybe just my hands, but, but cats was one of them. And it was, I guess, 1985 when the national tour came to LA to the Shubert Theater with Kim Criswell as Grizabella. And they took us, and I, my sister and I both fell asleep. Never made it to hear memory Sung. We were just carried out of the theater after the curtain call. And for years we would be like, I want to see Les Mis. I want to see Phantom. They're like, I'm not spending $300 you've slept through cats,

[2:42] Speaker 5: which is so not fair. I mean, so not fair. That's is not like the show, the first show to take a kid to Well,

[2:50] Ben Rimmel: true, although the thing is actually like, so I spent years actually, kind of like making jokes about cats. I mean, like I, when I moved to the city in 98 it was still the original production was so running, actually, my friends and I, one night, tried to second act it because we wanted to hear Liz Calloway sing memory, and an usher chased us out like we did not get away with it. It was crazy, but we went running all the way down to, like, Seventh Avenue, but, but it was, like, a big joke, you know, I mean, like, there's that line in the play Jeffrey, like cats now, and forget about it. And, you know, it was always just the easiest punch line. Was cats all the same

[3:35] Ben Rimmel: the British pop opera phase was over, and like, we had, like, the producers on Broadway. And it was all about, like, American musical comedy, September 11, George Bucha, you know, it was like, not about those British pop operas and cats just seemed like the, the lamest, cheesiest of the whole group. And then when the revival was opening in, I don't know what, 16, yeah, reset, yeah, you would know I got tickets only because my friend Rest in peace, the late, great, brilliant playwright David Bell. David wanted to go, and I knew I could get press tickets. And I really went just like as a joke. I was like, I don't I'm probably gonna fall asleep again, David, I had the best time of my life. I did not realize cats is a musical comedy song and dance review. It is I thought it was gonna be like Jekyll and Hyde. It is not. It is a laugh and a half. I loved it so much. The only thing I didn't like was I thought the Grizabella was hideous terror not hit you. Beautiful. Leona Louis, beautiful to look at. But what the worst acting I've seen on Broadway since Ricky Martin and Evita? That says a lot. And so I was but I loved the show. And then when she left, and now I can't remember the name of the actress, placed, Mimi Paris. I saw a clip of her, and I was like, Oh, she's good. And I was like, I can't believe I'm saying this, but I gotta go back. And so I went back again to see it. Loved it again. Loved Mimi. She held that high note in memory longer than anybody ever held anything in their life. And then then I was trying to have sex with this kid from Argentina who had never seen a Broadway show. And I was like, Well, you know, I could not a kid, but the part I shouldn't make, he was like, you know, 28 or something, you know, a kid to me. And he was like, I was like, What do you want to see? And he was like, cats. And I was like, done. And done. Wait, so this is the third time you're going well, I went to see the revival a third time, and I loved it all over again. I mean, absolutely loved it. Soup to

[5:48] Speaker 5: nuts. I mean, not to spill your personal tea. Benji, but I have to say, this seems like a trend. I mean, last week, didn't you see another musical for the second time? Because some visiting 20 something wanted to see a show and you could get press tickets. Wait,

[6:02] Ben Rimmel: what was that when you took Oh, MJ, but that was different. MJ, I went in knowing what I was getting into, yeah, I mean. MJ, I actually liked more when I saw it the first time than when I went back again. I almost wish I hadn't gone back again. And that was a weird situation. I thought you were talking about with Miss Saigon, but that wasn't to get laid. That was to take my cousin Linda from from Long Island, but I but both cases cats and Miss Saigon. There were these pop operas that I'd been taking a dump on for decades, and now I went back, and I was like, this show is great.

[6:40] Speaker 4: I love, I love everything about this story. So how old were you when you saw it as a kid? When you fell asleep

[6:45] Ben Rimmel: in 1985 I was either eight or nine? Okay,

[6:50] Speaker 4: I have, we can get into this debate now. I have gripes with children that age seeing the show different than your child that you brought in 2018 or 17, that you're just calling a child, the adult child, but a child, I mean, if you when you break down the plot, and I've spent a lot of time thinking about this, there is a sexual abuse scene, there is an orgy, there is a lot to this show.

[7:22] Ben Rimmel: Four times. I did not know there was rape or an orgy anywhere in the story.

[7:33] Ben Rimmel: Wait, are you like clearing the narrative, or is that actually the plot?

[7:38] Speaker 4: My knowledge is based off conversations with a lot of people who have been in it and have validated the room on the internet, who've been

[7:44] Speaker 5: in it Well, I mean, wasn't TS Eliot like a closeted homosexual?

[7:50] Ben Rimmel: That doesn't mean it was all bad an orgy

[7:57] Ben Rimmel: Secret secrets, demeters

[7:59] Speaker 4: character you know, who sings mccavity song is the known

[8:04] Speaker 3: great song and agree, known things.

[8:15] Speaker 5: Truth of the show. That makes sense now that I think about like the choreography and when he like grabs her and claws her like that. That symbol doesn't make sense to me now, yeah,

[8:24] Ben Rimmel: I guess because they were cats, I didn't take it to that. But really, that is what happens and the

[8:30] Speaker 4: white cat, so Victoria's dance is her coming of age, which is supposed for virginity.

[8:37] Ben Rimmel: Well, the movie ruined the white cat for me. I mean, the movie ruined all the cats for me, frankly. So especially the white one.

[8:43] Speaker 5: That movie, I have to say, was the last, the last movie I saw in theaters before COVID hit. So it was like, really left a bad, a bad taste in my mouth. Yeah,

[8:53] Ben Rimmel: I think the movie is responsible for the pandemic. I mean, yeah, it's, it's, it can't

[8:59] Speaker 4: the world turned when everyone saw it for sure. Okay, so the two hours of

[9:04] Ben Rimmel: shutdown with Coronavirus went by faster than the 90 minutes movie of cats.

[9:12] Speaker 4: Okay? I, I love and I love the your you really, you had a struggling history with it growing up it potentially wrote some of the other shows you could have saw with your family, but then, yes, 2016 and beyond your fan. And I will say maybe version is insane of and I did also see Leona Lewis as a preview, and it was an experience I do want. So that's all I'm gonna say about that. All right, Daniel, your turn.

[9:43] Ben Rimmel: She has a great voice, and she's a beautiful woman. I mean, I'm not trashing everything about her.

[9:48] Speaker 5: I mean, her song, bleeding love had an iron grip on me in 2007

[9:52] Ben Rimmel: Oh, this is good to know. Yeah, it was, it was, it's

[9:56] Speaker 5: a great song. Great song. Beautiful gowns. Yeah? Yeah, well, my, my experience with cats was also as a kid, but I was, I want to say I was a little older. I was in fourth grade. I think, How old would that be? Like, like, 11.

[10:13] Speaker 4: To me, it's teenagers, and above, you know, if you're 15 or 16, you might have got some of the innuendos, but you know, if you saw it as an adult like I did, or if you see it 13 or under, those are kind of really the buckets that I have for this.

[10:26] Speaker 5: I was definitely 13 and under. But my sister and I, whenever the infomercial would come on TV advertising for the VHS, the production starring Alan page, oh yeah, we would be like, Mom, get it for us. Get it for us. And, you know, back then, there was no was, I mean, there was, like, barely an internet so, like, my mom, you know, ordered it from the TV, and it arrived. And we were like, $75 right? $75 so fucking expensive you to, like, pay extra for the box. So it arrived. And, I mean, as you can imagine, it took us like, I think it took us, like, you know, six tries to finally get to act two. You know, we just kind of watched, like the first few numbers, like, over and over again, because it's a little boring for kids. And so we could never, like, get that far. So we'd either fall asleep or lose interest or turn something else on. And finally, you know, just organically, it happened that we finally watched the whole thing and finished it, and I finally got to see memory. And then I was obsessed. After I finally took the whole journey, I became really obsessed. And I was especially obsessed with the character of Jemima, who sings the little like, you know, the little memory whenever Grizabella, like, falls down and Jemima comes up, and she's like, Jemima has been canceled.

[11:44] Ben Rimmel: what's it called? Like, bamboo arena or something? No,

[11:47] Speaker 4: I forget what it's renamed, but it's syllable, yeah, it's been renamed. Yeah. Not your mind. Has

[11:54] Speaker 5: she really been renamed for real? That was a long time ago, I think, yeah,

[12:00] Ben Rimmel: I didn't even until you said that, Mike, I didn't even know that was why I thought it was changed, just like one of those, like, because I didn't take it as like an aunt, Jemima. Jemima. I thought it was like Jemima cook from girls, like, just like Jemima, a more American name, like syllabu. Yes, I don't

[12:20] Speaker 4: know why they changed it or they canceled it. They've have a history of changing some ensemble just to change them. So like Mike, yeah, like Peter is the one I hate, which is the GUS Buster for Jones, ensemble character who was named in 2016 Peter, because, to your point, it's Sylla, Bob and RAM Tom Tugger and most awfully and then Peter.

[12:41] Speaker 5: Maybe that's why they renamed Jim mimes, because it was too much of like a real human name.

[12:47] Speaker 4: Possibly. I Yeah, but they say that's little memory. So that's the song. That's the part that you're talking about. Is the little

[12:53] Speaker 5: memory going into act? Should do that duet sometimes? Yes, yeah, that would be great. We should do that at Betty Buckley, we'll be our own guest stars.

[13:01] Ben Rimmel: We will. That's a good thing. You said that because we lost

[13:07] Speaker 5: we lost one anyway. But I loved Jemima so much that, I mean, this is, this really tells you the age I was living in, which was, this was probably like 2000 exactly,

[13:22] Speaker 5: oh, I love I love your stats. So I would play the VHS on my TV, and then I would get my little tape recorder and record that clip little memory, because I loved it so much, and I thought her voice was so beautiful. And then I would play it. I'd have my mom play it in the car, and I would just play it over and over and over again, just like horrible quality, like a cassette recording from a VHS TV combo. And anyway, and then one of my first cats that I had, we had many cats. We lived out in the country. And one of the first cats I had, I named Jemima after that cat. Yeah, but I've never seen it, yeah. I mean, I've only seen it my VHS, though I did not see the revival. Unfortunately, I did see the movie. Unfortunately.

[14:08] Speaker 4: Okay, so never live. You know, it's touring right now, so you've got some time we do.

[14:15] Speaker 5: My sister and her husband saw it in Arkansas when it was touring through there, it

[14:19] Speaker 4: was actually touring for my family in Indiana. My mom found the ticket. It was supposed to be there April of 2020, and so it did not make it because of the pandemic, but it was like a stop or two away from making it there. So close, so close. We'll go on. It's 40 years in production. There'll be another version, I'm sure to see love that you've seen the VHS. A lot of the guests I've had have burned through the VHS. Is like they watched it so many times ruined. And it's pretty much the, you know, excluding 2019 debacle, the one that people can reference. It's like the one version you can find. So it's actually after I saw. Live twice when I was starting to prepare for this podcast. I did watch that version. I found it, downloaded it on an iPad and watched it on a plane. And let me tell you, the looks that you get sitting on a plane. Watching cats on an iPad is quite an experience. I love that that's like you infomercial that you like, took a type of recording device to record it on a cassette tape and then played it in the car. Yeah, times was hard flash from a pass. That's a, that's a throwback right there for every in every sensible,

[15:33] Speaker 5: totally, totally. And, I mean, I just remember they were really hanging their hat on Alan page, like, that was, like the big, you know, they were, like, starring Elaine page, you know, on like, channel four, and Tecumseh, Oklahoma. I was like, great, whoever she is. But, um, you know, eventually that, that that belt won me over. That that's

[15:54] Ben Rimmel: what Patti LuPone said too.

[16:00] Speaker 4: I want to pivot to cast offs, because I want to hear a little bit about, I read a little bit what you're doing, but tell me a little bit about what you're doing, how it's working. And then, for anybody it's in New York, like how they can come and then I want to play some of the games from it, a little I know about anything not catch related.

[16:20] Ben Rimmel: Well, we have had our podcasts on Broadway Podcast Network for a few years now, called broken records, and that podcast evolved over the course of the pandemic in different ways. And one of the things we did was launch the live stream, which we're not doing anymore, but we had a weekly live stream called next year some year, and which was honestly mostly just a way for me and Daniel to hang out when we were really in social distancing mode. But we made a lot of friends around the world, on on BPN and Broadway world when we were doing it, and that's where we developed some of the games. And then Daniel had the brilliant idea to take, well, to launch a live stage version, basically, of the live stream. And it was actually perfect for us, because we had already, we had gotten a booking to do a live recording of broken records in Provincetown the summer of 2020 that was canceled when those venues were closed and moved to 2021 and so we decided, instead of doing a live podcast recording in front of an audience, we would do that as like a tryout for what we were planning to start at club coming In the fall. So that is what we're doing, calling it cast offs. And it's every well, this can be by the time this comes out, people will know that we're it's been Wednesdays, but it's going to be Mondays at 8pm every week at club coming in the East Village, and it's free and just in the honor of Patti lupones Stop taking pictures speech at gypsy where she said that she and the rest of the company appreciate the people in the audience who followed the rules. We, since the days of our live stream, have a segment called appreciation station where we pay tribute to great artists and things that we love, usually in musical theater, musical theater adjacent. And so every week of our show cast offs we do appreciate someone or something, and we've recently had a series of guest stars come and help us pay tribute to those that we're appreciating by singing a song associated with them. And we've got some great ones coming up, including, as we discussed, the original Tony winning star of cats. Ms, Betty Buckley. Betty Lynn. Buckley, the greatest Grizabella that walked the earth, will be appreciating her on Monday, March 14, and we will have a very special guest there to help us pay tribute. That's right, possibly me and Daniel singing the duet.

[19:15] Ben Rimmel: imagine? Hey, Leona, first of all, don't listen to the wrong cat died. Podcast, thank you.

[19:24] Speaker 4: We're gonna take a quick break, and then we'll be back for more of the wrong cat died. I think that's really cool. And I think you also did Lewis white, right? You've so you've you've covered, you've appreciated we did, we just did Isabella's

[19:34] Speaker 5: Yes, and we're also doing Lori Beechman, right? Yes, that's

[19:40] Ben Rimmel: right, fabulous, fabulous, fabulous Grizabella, though a great Grizabella that I one of my regrets. I mean, I never saw patty and Evita, and I never saw Barbara and funny girl, and I never saw Laurie beachman in cats. Well, I love

[19:57] Speaker 4: it, so it is some fun game. People that are in New York can come free, which is great, so it's good job, and I'm sure we'll link all the stuff too in the episode description. Tell me about one of the games, and which game are we gonna try to play? Well,

[20:12] Ben Rimmel: it is called cast offs, because like a bake off, except instead of sharing baked goods, we're sharing casting ideas. All of our games are sort of related to, like Broadway casting, and probably the most popular game we have that we've been playing for years, even before the podcast, is a game we made up called dolly concert kill. And I think we could actually play a special version for you, which we could be, Grizabella, concert, kill Yeah. So great. You know, we'll pick three names. Maybe we could even each one of the three of us could suggest a name, and then each one of us has to choose for themselves which one of the three they want to see is Grizabella, which one they want to see in concert, and which one they want to send to the heavy side layer. It's Grizabella concert, heavy side layer. Love it. Love it. Grizabella goes to the heavy side layer. But you get the gist. Well,

[21:13] Speaker 5: it's nicer because it seems like that's what they all want to do, you know, yeah, and

[21:16] Speaker 4: that's my we'll get there, because that's kind of going to be how we end this podcast. Is Grizabella, that right choice. But okay, I like the game. So who wants to throw out the first name?

[21:28] Speaker 5: Well, I mean, I think, you know, we just said them right? Do we want to go? Do we want to go? Lilius, Betty, Buckley and Lori Beechman? Too soon, too soon. I mean, you know, you're always gonna come up against someone who's already in that,

[21:47] Ben Rimmel: I don't know. I feel like Mike might not be familiar with

[21:49] Speaker 4: Laurie between i Well, we could do, choose a Bella, and that's about it. Well,

[21:54] Speaker 5: we could, that's not we could do lilius. Lilius, Betty Buckley and Elaine page,

[21:59] Ben Rimmel: oh, yeah, they're all stuck that great international star, Elaine. Page,

[22:09] Speaker 4: okay, I would like one of you two to go first. I want to hear, I want to hear the experts kick us off.

[22:14] Speaker 5: Well, Ben, why don't you go? Since I, since I suggested it. All right.

[22:18] Ben Rimmel: Lilius, Betty, Buckley and Elaine. Page, Well, God, it's hard because, I mean, I'm definitely killing Alan. Page, you can start with that. She can go on the ultimate final Brexit. It's a really tough call between lillious and Betty. Because, I mean, obviously I want to see Betty in her iconic role, but I also have to say that Betty is one of my all time favorite concert performers. I mean, some of her albums, oh, my god, her live albums. Betty Buckley, an evening at Carnegie Hall and Betty Buckley the London concert are so thrilling. I mean, they're up there with Judy Garland at Carnegie Hall. And actually, to give Betty a plug, coming out this week is a new album on Palmetto records and wherever music is streamed. Betty Buckley sings Stephen Sondheim. And some of the tracks are new, but many of them. Most of them are from all her Sterling records, albums from the 90s that never were released from the fall, including many tracks from those two I just mentioned. So everybody should check that out. But of course, it's Sondheim, so there's no cats there. But so I, you know, it's like, I want to see Betty in concert, but I also want to see, I think I have to see Betty as Grizabella, because there's just no, I mean, it's like Patty and Evita also, where I reject Elaine page, because, you know, you just, you know, when you see Betty sing memory, that it's like everybody else, no tea, no shade. I mean, I told you how much I loved Mamie in that revival, you know. But it's like everybody else is kind of like singing the song they could be on American Idol, you know. And Betty, just like, you know, she does that thing where she squats down on the ground, even from the beginning, when she like, sticks her hand out in like fingers in cat formation. And it's just, it's thrilling. She takes you back to the Winter Garden in 1982 and and then lilius White is always thrilling, and to see lilius in concert is never less than goosebumps. So that that would be my choice. And once again, in case it wasn't clear, I kill Alan cage.

[24:37] Speaker 4: So okay, this is very well thought through, so I love it. Daniel,

[24:40] Speaker 5: um, well, do you, do you want to enter the same one or Ben, do you want to give me one? Do you have any other burning Sure, I'll, you know, I always do. I mean, I would love to get your your options.

[24:52] Ben Rimmel: Okay, for you. Daniel, I would like to hear choice between. So it's Grizabella concert, heavy stuff. Lair. So your choices will be Liz Calloway, okay, and Christine Eversole, okay. I like where this is going. And Kelly O'Hara, oh, all soprano grizabellas

[25:18] Speaker 5: or Mixi Grizabella the mix of Bellas, the Meow Mix of Ella's. Um, oh, this is good. Wait, did, did Christine ever play Grizabella? No, although

[25:31] Ben Rimmel: I do feel like I've heard her sing memory, but I might be making that up. Yeah, I don't think because she was in the Andrew Lloyd Webber Kennedy Center Honors, but I think she's saying as if we never said goodbye. And Betty Buckley and Sarah Brightman did our syllabub Jemima version of memory.

[25:50] Speaker 5: Oh, that's amazing. I mean, I mean Sarah Brightman as a cat named syllabub is, is my everything. She's a silly bub.

[26:00] Ben Rimmel: Okay, he sings my favorite version of Macavity, though, I will

[26:03] Speaker 5: say she is so crazy I'm she's like a jazz broad when she sings Academy, those cat eyes of hers, just like just streaming out. All right? Liz Callaway, Christine, ever soul and Kelly O'Hara Ooh. Do Okay, I want, I want Christine as Grizabella, because of the acting, you know, I think she's so good at interpreting and delivering an 11 O'clock Number, and I think she will really make it poignant and make it really devastating, and then give you the full arc, and she will make the most of her like, you know, 12 minutes on stage, Kelly O'Hara, I love her for her voice, so that is who I want to see in concert, because that no one's voice can throw me quite like Kelly's. She has a true gift, and I would love to see her at like Carnegie Hall, you know, somewhere where she can really just sing all the soprano songs I want her to sing, and then Liz Calloway, she can go up to the heavy side layer, and maybe she and Ann can do a two hander up there. Have

[27:14] Speaker 4: you two ever talked through how, you know you're a great duo here, and the psychology behind how and you were just like, here's who I'm killing first. And Daniel, you're like, hey, let me walk through my other reason wolves, I have to kill one of them.

[27:30] Speaker 5: You unpack that it. It is very Elaine page. Yes,

[27:36] Ben Rimmel: there are definitely some people you could say that would trigger Daniel into homicide mode anything absolutely

[27:41] Speaker 5: we all have our have our kill triggers.

[27:45] Speaker 4: Okay, now, who are my three people?

[27:50] Ben Rimmel: I mean, I, I, well, let's make it interesting. How about Sutton Foster? You know who that is? Right? I do, okay, and Adina Menzel and Kristen Chenoweth,

[28:13] Speaker 5: the newer than Betty Buck Legion, yeah, the kids,

[28:16] Speaker 4: yeah, okay, I'm more, yeah. I'm more Daniel in the sense that I'm gonna work my way to a process of elimination heavy side lair. You

[28:26] Speaker 4: So I think I would like to see Adina Menzel do Grizabella, because I think that that's just like such a powerful belting song. And that's kind of where I, you know, the let it go, and some of the stuff in Wicked, I think would be really cool to see that version. Yeah, good choice. I don't know enough about Sutton Foster's musical chops, so it's gonna be process Alan that I'd rather see. Kristen Chenoweth, you know, I saw her in Glee years ago, like, I think she can, you know, I know a little bit from that. I think that's the concert I want to see. And then for Sutton Foster is just process elimination. She's gonna get on the tire and she's gonna go up to the heavy side layer,

[29:11] Speaker 5: yeah, yeah. That works. That works. I love those are the good choices, yeah,

[29:17] Ben Rimmel: yeah, yeah. Okay,

[29:18] Speaker 4: let's switch gears here, and you're going to play a little bit of my game now where we're going to do a couple cats rapid fire questions before we debate this important question. So my first question for both of you, too is, if you were in the show, if you were a cat, which track would you want to perform?

[29:40] Speaker 5: I would want to perform. I know who Ben would want to perform, and that's who I want him to perform. Thank you, darling. I would want to perform monkey strap. Is he like the main like, little narrator, cat the narrator, because he doesn't have to do a lot of, like, heavy dancing, like. I would never want to be like, Rum Tum Tugger or misto police or the railway cat, because they're, they have, like, really dance heavy songs. F that I would do, monkey strap and I would, I would, you know, have some things in my contract saying that, like, I can move, but not dance. But I would change, as you know, to gay it up a bit even more than TS Eliot already did. I would change my name to jock. You strap. I

[30:24] Ben Rimmel: mean, I don't know if you need to monkey strap already sounds like gay fetish gear.

[30:29] Speaker 5: I mean, so many of these names do. I mean, if you think about it, they all sound like gay slang, like, like, Rum Tum, Tugger, rumple, teaser, hello, brittle bone, griddle bone, you're killing me. I mean, it's like, give my griddle bone a Rum Tum Tugger till I Buster for Jones in your cavity.

[30:52] Ben Rimmel: Stop it. Oh, my God. The crazy thing is, the gayest one is gimbal Shanks, the railway cat. But those are gay names

[31:01] Speaker 4: you are stuff always, it's gotta be my stuff, right? Very gay too.

[31:07] Ben Rimmel: think we only think that because, um, I mean, he's very beautiful and talented Tyler Haynes, but he's like, one of our people. But like, I feel like, when it's like, Terence man doing like, like, like, like, Elvis impression. It's, maybe, I don't know, I guess it's still kind of Tim Curry ish, I will tell

[31:26] Speaker 4: you Tugger is. Tugger is as a duo. Is the majority, majority of the fan fiction that's out there. And it is all very erotic fan fiction.

[31:37] Speaker 5: Oh, I think Rum Tum Tugger, Old Deuteronomy situation, yeah, most

[31:43] Speaker 4: awfully is, I think, is because in the VHS, he dances with a rainbow, like flag, or like he has a rainbow part of his dance. And so I think that that's kind of the, you know, but the cats are fluid. There's no genders, there's no like cats at the end of the day. But

[31:59] Ben Rimmel: also, when cats opened in 1982 it was before the homosexuals had pervertized the innocent rainbow flag. Yes,

[32:08] Speaker 4: just meant, but the movie was 98 and so that's when they I don't think it's in the stage production. I think they added it for the movie.

[32:17] Ben Rimmel: They went, they crossed the street to make that show disgusting.

[32:23] Speaker 4: The movie also has some like, fake lightning in his dance that they added in. So, you know, that's the high effects they got in 98

[32:29] Speaker 5: they added some lightning, but they couldn't fucking add shadows on those feet. Oh

[32:34] Speaker 4: no. This was the new movie had plenty of other issues in itself. This is the Oh well, that's

[32:40] Speaker 5: so funny. Say that because after I watched the movie in cinemas, then I went home and watched clips from the 98 and I was like, this is just even, like, the camera work, the direction, like this is so much better as a film than that actual movie was.

[32:54] Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, Ben, who are you? Grizabella. Grizabella, okay, now I'm gonna, I'm gonna flip it if you get to pick for each other the same

[33:05] Speaker 5: I feel, yeah, I mean, I would definitely. I think Ben, Ben could do Grizabella, not only because he's right for the role, but because it's a very Patti LuPone track. It's like, you get to sit backstage for the first half of the show, and then you come out and do like your big number, then you get to go back to sitting backstage. It's like 15. You know, they offered me the

[33:21] Ben Rimmel: part, but I had just done an Angela Dwemer show.

[33:25] Speaker 4: I love it. Okay, who is your favorite and least favorite cat? Like, which character of an a good

[33:33] Ben Rimmel: question. Well, my favorite is definitely Grizabella, although I have a very soft spot for, is it Old Deuteronomy that sings the like, is it somebody? Is it monkey strap that sings his song? Like, yes, no,

[33:52] Speaker 5: that's, that's monkey strap, right? That's so beautiful, yeah.

[33:58] Ben Rimmel: Well, look at that. My other favorite was yours, Daniel, but I hate all the boring dancing ones, like, what's the little ones? It was like those little like

[34:07] Speaker 4: Mungo, Jerry and Rumpel, teaser, Mongo, Jerry and rumble teaser,

[34:11] Ben Rimmel: more like cut.

[34:18] Speaker 5: I don't know i It's hard for me because I want to say Grizabella, but, I mean, I guess Grizabella just because she has the big like money song. But I also really love, like, Gus, the theater cat, like, I love all the old cats, you know, who's the one who's like the older lady cat who's

[34:42] Speaker 5: like her too, because she's enjoyable. She likes to sit and sit just like I do. I love Gus the theater cat, just because I feel like an old theater queen is always my people, you know. But I kind

[34:54] Ben Rimmel: of feel like without having, like, reality cam footage of 1985 Five, I probably fell asleep during Gus but theater cat like,

[35:05] Speaker 4: definitely, you definitely were out cold during that part, unless you might have saw the pirate scene, though. Like, if you saw the whole, the

[35:13] Ben Rimmel: whole piece, I was not one of these kids that was like, Oh, cool. Will there be pirates?

[35:19] Speaker 4: Not fair. Fair, okay, Daniel, who's your least favorite?

[35:24] Speaker 5: Oh, I mean, Elaine page, Alan page, no, I guess I know, honestly, like, maybe the rum Tom Tugger. I mean, he's never appealed to me, you know, a little too, like, like, flashy, like I don't know. I never, I never quite you know, got in with the Rum Tum Tugger.

[35:47] Ben Rimmel: You might have gotten into him if you saw Tyler Haynes shimmying around in the black leotard.

[35:52] Speaker 5: I might have, and I'm available for the videos to be sent to me, anyone who's listening, who has footage of Tyler Haines in those tights, I

[36:04] Speaker 4: we can ask Tyler if he just has pictures of himself and those are videos of him. We can he's been a guest, send his

[36:11] Speaker 5: whole phone. We'll sort through my Can you just send me your album? I'll do the sorting. It's no big deal.

[36:16] Ben Rimmel: No, no. Need to go at curate. I'll have

[36:20] Speaker 5: I'll have my intern do it. His name is Rumpel teaser, yeah. Okay,

[36:25] Speaker 4: now we got to ask the million dollar question, and I'm aware that I've spent way more time thinking about this in any world, but I do not think Grizabella should be the choice for the heavy side layer. I feel are going to argue for her here. Do you think she was the right Jellicle choice for the heavy side layer? And if not, who are you going to defend or argue for?

[36:47] Ben Rimmel: What you mean isn't the criteria just as being like, who most deserves to like have the life.

[36:56] Speaker 4: So the plot of cats is very up for debate, as you are very so the criteria, I think, is a very interesting question that we don't really know the answer to, because we only have a glimpse into one or and one choice. So I don't, I don't know the answer that I have my thoughts, but I do think it's who's most deserving or who needs it the most. But I think that this can dictate your answer, so it is a very good first question.

[37:25] Ben Rimmel: Well, she's most deserving because she was a great star who was important in the cat community and has been completely cast aside and treated like crap. I mean, it's just because she's a woman, because, you know, Gus the theater cat, like he's been cast aside, but he can still, like, teach and work in summer stock, and he's, like, an actor's fun zoom with Seth rudetsky, but Grizzle is just like people just spit at her in the gutter, you know? So she did, she she needs it and she deserves it, because she has the best voice, totally.

[38:00] Speaker 5: I mean, blah. I mean, Gus the theater cat is probably, like, you know, doing episodes of Star Trek or something, and Grizabella can barely get, like, a murder. She wrote episode in here and there. Yeah, I tell him, daddy. Okay.

[38:13] Speaker 4: Now, do you think there's part of the rumors is that Grizabella left the tribe to do some bad things, and is coming back, and that's why they don't like her. So does that

[38:26] Speaker 5: change? Don't Don't you think it's a little slut shaming, though, because, like, you know, she's wearing, like, the fish nets and the fur coat, and so she kind of has like, this woman of the night vibe. And I feel like glamor cat, the glamor taxi dancer, and I feel like it's very like Handmaid's Tale. Whenever, you know, she's walking up, and they're all like, you know, ran. They're like, they're like, outcasting her. They're casting her off, you might say. And no thrones. It's like, they're like, Blessed be the fruit, like, you know, but like, Away with you because you You embarrass us because of your choices. So I feel like Grizabella went and, you know, was a stripper or whatever, and now she's coming back to be accepted by her home tribe, and they are not having it, you

[39:10] Ben Rimmel: know, embarrasses me because of their choices.

[39:18] Speaker 5: We moved on, but I don't know. I mean, I don't want to shit on your whole thesis, but I do think Grizabella is deserving because they're making up for how they've treated her.

[39:29] Speaker 4: I The whole reason I've brought people on is to try to argue for her. I do think there's but I think there are questions that you have to ask. And I think Ben, you asked the first one, which is, what is criteria. And then I think, Daniel, you asked a really important one too, is what happened when she left that we don't really know. So we don't know where what she did, was she exiled? Was she, you know, sex worker, what her we don't know. We get one glimpse into it. My kind. A belief, though, is, is that if she's coming back and they're gonna start accepting her, why are we immediately killing her? Why doesn't she get to spend time with her family? Well,

[40:08] Speaker 5: true, but I got the feeling she doesn't have much family, yeah, but also it's like, maybe they're killing her, but like in the cat's cinematic universe, like that is something that, like they're wanting, you know, like, that is, like the reward. I mean, you know, whether it's a little bit Shirley Jackson the lottery, you know, where it's, like, the winner gets literally stoned to death, but like, you know, it is something that they're aspiring to. So maybe it's like a release, like you get to go to, like, the next life, you know, it's, it's seen as, like, reincarnation, or whatever, like, for them, that might be,

[40:40] Speaker 4: oh, it's, yeah, it's definitely a reward. I mean, it's, I saw Leona Lewis, so I did think it was like the X Factor, and instead of a million dollars, you just get killed. So that was how I kind of interpreted the show to begin with. I want to throw a theory for you too, because I think you both will appreciate it. Is one fan rumor, not my fan rumor is, is that this is just Old Deuteronomy way as a serial killer to hide his murders, and every year he's killing somebody else. And this is the cover of it is the cult Jellicle Ball. More

[41:18] Speaker 5: power to him. I love that he's like the Charles Manson of the jellicles,

[41:24] Ben Rimmel: die. I want to go painlessly with 100% confidence I'm going to a better place having a contest after

[41:33] Speaker 5: having delivered a devastating 11 O'clock Number. Yeah,

[41:37] Speaker 4: exactly, exactly. You know, it's the show stopper to end, and then, although it doesn't end as the new movie really hammered home is that there's a show and you're gonna get just like Judy Dench is gonna talk to you and break the fourth wall for five more minutes to end the movie.

[41:53] Speaker 5: Whatever happened with her hand? Wasn't there some big debacle over her human hand? I

[41:59] Speaker 4: did see a press viewing, and they did. They clearly rushed production to finish, and they did not finish in time, and that's why there's the whole cut and all these other like rumors that are out there that, yeah, that's a whole thing. If you Seth Rogen went way deep on it, that there's supposed to be a cut where they didn't edit out the cat's butt holes, but they didn't finish. And so the first week of the show, if you saw at the very first week, there was a, like, a sound guy in the background, if you caught it, there was her hand. Was not like it was just a human hand, something in the frame. So it's like they just didn't finish in time. So there was a lot of things, but there's so much going on that was like, I didn't notice most of them, but then I saw the screenshots, I was like, Oh, they missed. But

[42:47] Ben Rimmel: like, that is not what's wrong with the movie.

[42:49] Speaker 5: I mean, that is exactly right things, yeah,

[42:54] Ben Rimmel: I would forgive them a lot more, like boom mics in sloppy shots, if they were good at storytelling, right? There

[43:03] Speaker 4: was, yeah, that's, that's a separate episode for us. If we want to get into that, I I want to, I appreciate you both coming on. I want to hear, how can we one? You know, stay in touch with cast off. Stay in touch with you. Let's, let's shamelessly plug everything here.

[43:18] Ben Rimmel: Well, you can follow us across all social media, Ben rimmelower and Daniel Nolan. He's Nolan with an E, so much. And I'm rim Lauer within Lauer, I don't know if you, you know, just Google like gay guy Patti LuPone, like, you know, glasses or something. But, and then also, in addition, club coming is just, you know, a good Instagram account to follow to get the information for the show. And you know, if people forget how to spell Nolan and never had a prayer of Rimmel hour, hopefully they can do coming, although it is singular coming, like, Oh, I'm coming, as opposed to fake plural Cummings, like I often see people say just not Alan's name. No,

[44:07] Speaker 5: no, yeah, named after Alan. Cumming for those who don't know, the cat

[44:11] Ben Rimmel: we have yet to see, yes,

[44:13] Speaker 5: the Grizabella yet to be cast. Although he's he's probably more of who would he play? I mean, back in the day, he would have been a great monkey strap, and he could still do monkey strap, probably, yeah, he could

[44:25] Speaker 4: do a couple. There would be a couple flank boy ads. Yes, I did have, I had to auto correct because the s got added. I'm like, Okay, I know that's not correct. So I did fix that in my own notes. But so

[44:40] Ben Rimmel: Marty Gould, Cummings, his fault. Oh, Marty,

[44:43] Speaker 5: too. But if we were Barbara Streisand, we could just, and if Steve Jobs were still alive, we could just call him up and ask him to change the spelling with, with Barbara. What if

[44:53] Ben Rimmel: that never really happened? And just like, Barbara, like, sent an email and then it was fixed, because, like, like. Her assistant went on her phone and just, like, updated, like, like, dictionary, yeah,

[45:05] Speaker 5: Renata, she was she had her head in a box for electric skits, and Renata went and changed the settings.

[45:11] Ben Rimmel: Barbara's like, it's so wonderful. I just send an email to Steve Jobs at info@apple.com

[45:18] Speaker 5: meanwhile, this is a week after his death, and she had no idea.

[45:23] Speaker 4: Love it absolutely. We will also link everything in the description for everyone that's too lazy to try to guess the spelling.

[45:32] Ben Rimmel: I forgot it myself. I know sometimes you

[45:44] Speaker 4: and thanks for listening to this episode of the wrong cat died. The podcast breakdown of cats atrophy. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, or anywhere else you listen to podcasts, follow us on Twitter and Instagram at the wrong cat died. Or check out our website, the wrong cat died.com. You.