This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande, Hi, I'm Cynthia Erivo, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network. Visit vpm.fm to discover more.

[0:30] Mike Abrams: Welcome to the wrong cat died. The podcast breakdown, the cast, atrophy. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another very fun episode. My guest today is a fellow Broadway Podcast Network person hosting his own podcast called your program is your ticket, discussing smaller, more intimate theater works with people that make it happen. So he's also seen cats many times over the years, including smaller productions. Has a little bit of a history with the show, a love, hate relationship with it. So Sean Chandler, thank you for joining me. Excited to have you here, Mike.

[0:58] Speaker 2: I'm like, super stoked. Thank you for agreeing to put me on your show. This is really exciting.

[1:04] Mike Abrams: I want any and all perspectives of cats out there for the world. And as someone who has experience with it, seen multiple versions of it, including small, you know, small theater productions of it, I want to hear your version, and especially as long as you know, we'll see if I totally agree with you, if you argue for grizzabel at the end. But I want to get as many non grizabell arguments out there too. So let's kick it off. I always love hearing the very first time you saw cats. Tell me about when, where the experience the first

[1:36] Speaker 2: time I saw cats was the original Broadway production. It was in December of 1982 and it was during my senior class drama trip with my drama department at my high school in in Downey, California. And I it was, I think, like the last show that we saw, and it was one on one of those trips. There used to be a promotional campaign. I don't know if you are familiar with it, or maybe you remember, probably not, but it was called the I Love New York campaign, okay? And, and the commercials went something like this, I mean, you'd see like, I don't know the Rockettes in the middle of Times Square, kicking, or I don't know somebody from a production singing. I forgot what the big productions were way back then, 42nd street, or Dream Girls or something. And they would sing, I love New York, and that was and so everybody came to New York, and they offered schools trips, the I Love New York trip, and we would, a group of us would fly down and or fly over, I should say, and they put everybody up in the Milford Plaza Hotel, on a Do you know that? You know, you know what, the Milford Plaza I'm

[3:01] Mike Abrams: also just laughing because I my one trip with this with school, which was not part of this campaign, and was not, was they put us in the Wellington, and it's very similar. And like, not far, I think they're down the street, right? They're really close to each other, aren't they?

[3:17] Speaker 2: I've never heard of the Wellington, but the the Milford Plaza Hotel now it's on Eighth and, like 44th and it's now called row NYC. So it's, it's very, very possible. What's really interesting, though, is like, I can actually have a great view from my apartment. I live in Hell's Kitchen, and I can actually see the old like ghost sign of Milford, the Milford Plaza going down the down the building. But it was, it's, I mean, it's an okay hotel. It's off of eighth and a lot of people, when they come to New York and they walk up and down Eighth Avenue, they're like, Wow, this is kind of seedy and a little pervy, if you will. And it was like 10 times worse when I was here. This is before anybody came in and cleaned up and Disney fied New York. So,

[4:06] Mike Abrams: so that area is fine, is fine now for sure. Oh, yeah,

[4:10] Speaker 2: it is that would be, we would call it fine. Other people may not call it fine, but it's fine in comparison to what it was. Dang it was open, open. My little, you know, a gay boy, 17 year old eyes,

[4:23] Mike Abrams: so they flew across country as part of this campaign to get people to travel to New York. It was huge. Yeah. I mean, they you saw shows like, what is that you just saw? You just saw a bunch of Broadway shows, and probably went to all the tourist spots. Yes,

[4:38] Speaker 2: yes, I was here, I think for like five full days, I saw seven shows, and of course, we toured and we went on Staten Island Ferry. But in this campaign, the amount that you paid covered your airplane ticket, your hotel, state and two Broadway shows, and one of those was cats, the other one was. Nine. This is the original production of nine that featured role Julia back in the day. And I saw a bunch of other shows. I saw Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor dream coat, since we're talking, you know, and Julie

[5:13] Mike Abrams: Weber here, sticking to his

[5:17] Speaker 2: and and torts on trilogy was it was a really super fun trip for a drama geek like me. Cats was the last show that we saw, and it was over at the Winter Garden Theater. And I let's just say that we we imbibed. We were high school seniors, and, you know, so we were, we were partying a little bit here and there and and by the time we saw cats, I was on my seventh show, and honestly, I was like, this isn't hitting me. This is I'm not jiving with this. I don't get it. I'm ready to fall asleep watching this. And I just thought, well, you know, maybe it's just, maybe it's just because I'm tired and but I, but I kind of lied and said, Oh, I loved it, and told everybody that I thought it was great. And it was just, you know, that theater peer pressure. It was kind of like when I saw Hamilton the first time, I had a really hard time telling people that I just wasn't catching on to it, when everyone's like, Oh, Hamilton. Same with strange loop that I just saw, but that's a whole other story slash podcast. But so I honestly was like, I Yeah, yeah, everybody, it was great. Cats was great. And this is before the Tony Awards and all of that. And before Betty Buckley won her Tony side note on Betty Buckley, she biffed one of her lyrics in memory. It was something like, it was like, me, man, I mean, she changed from midnight to memory, like, within like a fraction of a syllable. I had forgotten about that. Tell my friend Blair, who went, who went with me, was like, Oh, you remember when Betty Buckley made a huge mistake?

[6:57] Mike Abrams: You got to see, you get to see almost history. So, so you're 17, that's what you said. You're around 17 ish, when you're going to see this, you are either still potentially intoxicated or hungover, and it's the last show of your trip, and you see cats, yeah, that like, almost ideal scenario if you were a little intoxicated, of like, kind of the right age, because like that, too young is too weird, too like teenage, early teenager, I think, is too much. I think at that point you're an adult, like you're you're an older teenager that you really can understand what's happening in the show. Or if it's not portrayed like it's not going to be too much, if you see it at that point and you're intoxicated, which is really the what I wish everyone would told me before I saw it, is to have just a little bit of extra help. So you should have been, like, peak, peak performance for this. And you didn't like it, and you just pretended to, so you can, you know, fit in at the time.

[7:53] Speaker 2: One would think, right? And I mean, but you have to remember, I was like, Well, you have to know, sorry, you weren't there. You don't remember. You have to know that I was sitting in the balcony at like the, like the the second row from the top, and it was warm, and the show was just weird and strange, and I wasn't hooking into it at all. I don't, I just don't think I got it and I wanted to like it and, and maybe I should have gotten a little more, I don't know, ripped. I should have been like, like, shit facing,

[8:27] Mike Abrams: you need to see her earlier in the trip, when you were, you know, in peak performance. And the trip, you're kind of on the downslope, yeah, probably right, yeah, exactly, yeah, definitely. Seven days, five days. It's yeah, you're, you're done. Oh, yeah,

[8:41] Speaker 2: I saw shows that I liked way more, including nine. I liked nine. Nine was a little adult for me, but chorus line and just, just a lot of great stuff. So here's this, this show with a bunch of cats, you know, crawling around and pawing at people, and I just, I just didn't get it. It would take years before I finally would I

[9:02] Mike Abrams: love it. You can name all the shows you saw, and there's probably besides Joseph, I probably have not seen a single one of them that you saw on that trip. Okay, so you've never seen torch on trilogy. Never heard of it. There's gonna be a bunch I probably have never even heard of. I didn't never heard of nine. Nine, okay, I have not seen coarse line, but I've heard of it. Let's know what that one

[9:22] Speaker 2: is. I saw a show called Monday after the miracle which was the sequel to the miracle worker. I know, right? The sequel to the miracle work. You've heard of the miracle worker, right? For the miracle worker, I've never heard of the sequel. Okay, there's a good reason for that, because I think it closed the day after I saw it. So basically, I killed the sequel to the miracle worker. Very, very clearly, and I saw a show called pump boys and dinettes, which is never heard of it. Yeah, and I don't know, I forget everything else. I'm sorry. No, you're

[9:55] Mike Abrams: good. This is, this is why I host a Broadway theme podcast. Is because I have my extensive. Knowledge on all this stuff. Okay, so when's the next time you saw it? Thanks. I know you've you know you didn't like it then, but you've had kind of this roller coaster of experience with it. Well,

[10:10] Speaker 2: as I had said in our pre discussions, I figured, I guess for my own sake, I'm going to do a little scorecard here, and it's going to be called the cats give it and the cats take it away. Love it, because I feel like I've just been the cats have batted me around so much. It's just, you know, my brain, it's, it's, it explodes with cats anyway, so that particular, the first, the first go around, the cats took it away, for sure, because I had no yeah, they took it away. Okay, so now fast forward to 1991 and this is when my husband, David and I first got together. We've been together for 30 plus years. This

[10:52] Mike Abrams: is nine years after you saw the first one. You said it was 8283

[10:56] Speaker 2: 82 and then this is 1991 Okay, yeah. So that is with math. That's nice. Yeah, exactly it was when we first got together. And one night, we were before we were falling asleep, we were we started talking about cats. We were talking about shows that we've seen. And he reveals to me that he absolutely hated it. Now, he did see a touring production of it, but he went on and on. He was like, I swear to God, they said the word Jellicle, whatever the hell that is, at least 1000 times just within the opening like song. It was like the first eight minutes and angelical Jellicle jelly. He goes. And as if that wasn't bad enough, about two thirds of the way through, they ratchet up the music goes and they start singing the whole entire chorus again, multiple octaves higher. He was like, just kill me now, please. Now this, this is gonna, this is gonna come back to a good thing eventually. But it was the first time I had ever heard anyone say out loud that they hated cats, and the first time, honestly, I was like, oh my god, somebody like, kind of agrees with me. And I don't know if I hated it, but I just thought I appreciated the artistic version. I just didn't like it very much. But anyways, I will tell you this. It was then and there that I decided that I would marry that man

[12:21] Mike Abrams: that sealed the deal. I really love so I haven't I've asked a lot of people that tell me they hate it, because I, you know, when people learn that I have a podcast about cats, they either love it or hate it, and the love is like a deep love of like thoughtful and like what they character, that they liked or that they associated with, everyone that hates it. I've yet to find anybody give me a reason. That's the first reason that I've heard of. Like, they went up an active hire, and they didn't, you know, said this, like most people just are, like, it's just not my cup of tea. That is the first, like, dedicated, thoughtful, this is what I didn't like about it. And I've been waiting to find somebody that hates it for like, a true, like, thought out, drawn out reason it sounds like that, that's your husband,

[13:03] Speaker 2: yeah. Oh, totally Yeah. And I, honestly, I just, I breathed. It was like, you know, I exhaled, like the movie waiting next I exhaled. I was like, okay, yes, this is the person I meant to spend however long I can with in this life. But yeah, I, I'm so glad that he could validate you as he could validate when it comes to cats. So it was hilarious. So in 1991 the cats giveth the cats giveth me. You know somebody who I bond with that actually didn't like it? Well, his was a little bit more patriotic.

[13:37] Speaker 3: Yeah, he was. He was serious about it. He had thought it through. Oh, my God,

[13:42] Speaker 2: totally we were, we were just howling. It was then that night, also that he was doing, I think the Phantom of the Opera in the voice of Cher and Carol Chan. So that sealed the deal, right there. You know, come on, I'm in love. Okay, so do

[13:58] Mike Abrams: you want me? Do you want to keep going follow me through the whole thing. I love this.

[14:02] Speaker 2: Okay, 15 years ago, 15 years later, excuse me, I see the Broadway revival now. I decide, You know what, I'm gonna go see the Broadway revival, because I feel a little nostalgic. So this is a 2016 revival, yes, the one that was recently on. And Neil Simon, yeah. Neil Simon, theater, yeah. Now David and I are decades married and living in New York City now, so we're, it's, you know, time has passed. And as I said, I decided to go see the revival for nostalgia sake. And so I asked David if he wants to attend, and he was like, you know, I'll go whatever. Now he took your advice. I I myself don't, don't drink anymore, but he had probably two or three drinks, and said, Sure, yeah, why not? Yeah, that's perfect. We got front row seats, which is always, always makes some stuff always okay. It makes most stuff better when you have a front row seat, because you're right. There, and it's for you. So he says, I'll go

[15:03] Mike Abrams: now. I want to, I want to see where in the run is it? Is it early on, like, did you see Leona Lewis, or did you see Mamie? I thought both,

[15:12] Speaker 2: okay, but at this time, this one, right? It was Leo, Leona Lewis, when? Okay, you know way more about cats than your club. No, I love,

[15:20] Mike Abrams: I know about cats. I don't know about anything else about Broadway. I know a lot about cats from 2016 on, and a little bit that I've learned over time about all the different productions, because I've now talked to people in almost every production that's been globally done. Wow, yeah, that's okay, slowly getting there.

[15:39] Speaker 2: Okay, I bow to you for your dedication and your commitment to the cats of all musicals. I love it. That's great. Anyways, yeah, we saw Leona

[15:50] Mike Abrams: Lewis. Okay, so this is early in the run, then way early

[15:53] Speaker 2: on the run. I don't even think they had opened yet, and maybe we're

[15:57] Mike Abrams: at the same production, because I was, I saw the second to last preview. I saw Saturday matinee in 2016 and that was my first experience with the show ever. And it sounds like it's around the same time you got to see it as your second experience of the show with your husband, who hates the show. I love it. Okay, so now you're back. I think we're back to the the take it.

[16:19] Speaker 2: Well, kind of No. No, I No, actually, no, okay, let me, let me reverse that. So we go, and we were watching it, and all of a sudden, at the end of Act One, before they, you know, when they cut the light, bring the lights back up to intermission, we both looked at each other, and much to our surprise, at the same time, we said, I love it. Now, there were a few things that happened here. Okay, I'm I'm a little more grown up. I'm not drunk or high. He's drunk. So obviously those two things worked in our favor. The reverse of before and and, Andy Blankenbuehler went in and he tightened up the choreography considerably and and that I recognized myself.

[17:05] Mike Abrams: Okay, I love that you recognize because that's that's the part without no idea. And I've heard amazing things about Andy's changes and how it differs and some of things. And every time everyone tells me I'm like, I saw people dancing I did. I didn't see anything else. I don't know the first thing about the twirls from misophys and the kicks, I learned that the stage is raked, which blows my mind, that that means it's on a tilt, like that's crazy in itself. But I'm glad that theater people recognize it, because he definitely made a lot of changes in a lot of like, thoughtful ways of how to change the choreography, to make it his style. And that went right over my head, but I'm glad that you recognized it.

[17:42] Speaker 2: I mean, I think that it also had the benefit of having been around for what at that point? 3020, 3040, yeah, they

[17:52] Mike Abrams: hit their 40 year mark, like during COVID. So it would have been 38 ish years, probably something around that. Yeah,

[18:00] Speaker 2: yeah. So maybe they've had time to, you know, tinker with it a little bit, and, you know, play with it and make it move along faster and tighter and which, which is good. I can imagine that a show like that forever, a dance show could might be, might get a little sloppy here and there. But Well,

[18:21] Mike Abrams: if you want to see a tight version Royal Caribbean, they do a 90 minute version on a career. Do they really? Yeah, they do a 90 minute version now, because with people not paying, they couldn't have an intermission, because no one came back, right? So they had to cut, and I don't know exactly what they cut. I'm still trying to get all the details on that, but there's the current role. It's currently happening is a 90 minute production,

[18:43] Speaker 2: oh, my god, wow. I just David and I just went on a cruise, and we saw a longer version of Million Dollar Quartet than that. I mean, it was, I mean, this, this one was, like, over two hours, and you only get 90 minutes of cats. But I you know, that's probably very soon

[19:01] Mike Abrams: vacation. Next vacation for you, right? Exactly? You're ready to go?

[19:05] Speaker 2: Well, there is a, an abbreviated version of The Phantom of the Opera, or at least there was in Las Vegas, they did one that was like, I don't know, like 9090, minutes, maybe 100 minutes long. But in Las Vegas it's like the the casino bosses, yeah, they want that in there for three hours for sure. They want that stuff starting on time and then then ending. I remember I read this a book by Rosie O'Donnell, where she talked about how she went over time with one of her comedy sets in in Las Vegas. And boy, they were like, right up her nose over it. I believe that. Yeah, yeah, it's money for sure.

[19:41] Mike Abrams: Okay, so you're 2016 you're, you're loving it, intermission, right? I'm

[19:45] Speaker 2: loving it. And then by the end of it, I'm, you know, standing ovation. David, right there, you know, both of us is clapping and in tears. So I'm going to give it that the cats give it. Okay? In that 2016

[20:01] Speaker 2: it also. I had the privilege of interviewing a gentleman by the name of Adam Wolf on my podcast, and he was, he's like one of those. He's a percussionist, and he's one of those musicians that travels as a sub from different from one production to the next, as you know, whenever they need a drummer because somebody's on vacation or something like that, and and he was he, he drummed for cats quite a bit, he told me, so that's very definitely because of him, the giveth also for that production, if I may say, I had the fortunate nature. And I don't know if you've interviewed her, but my friend John Marins, who is a writer, he's a playwright, and he's a Pulitzer finalist playwright. He was hired to rewrite the book for paint your wagon for a production at the muni theater in St Louis, Missouri, and his female lead was Mamie Paris, and I, not only did I see her in the show, but we went and saw the show with John, and he invited us backstage to the big cast party that they had. I talked to her for the longest time. She is one of the nicest actors I have ever talked to in my life, just asking me about me. And, you know, actors usually don't ask me about me, and that's fine, no big deal. But she was just, she was just really super nice.

[21:31] Mike Abrams: I completely agree. She was early on in the people I got to interview, and was wonderful. And I do get to see her perform, because I went almost to the day a year later, and got to see her version of it. And, you know, at that point, I don't know who any of these people are at all, and I just remember being blown away by her memory. And and then I got to, I agree, she was so nice, wonderful. And have been hoping to see her and other stuff, because I just want to see, you know, she just was so talented singing, you know, building that out, that I knew she was doing something in the muni, because now I follow her on social media and kind of get to stay in touch with other things she's she's doing, but, but, yeah, she was fantastic. But it was also early on of me arguing with grizzabellas, and so she was in the first couple grizabellas. I got to talk to where I was, like, I hope you're okay with me having my entire podcast thesis being about how I don't think your performer should, should win. Like, I don't think that you should end the show with your song. And that's the whole crux of my podcast. So thankfully, she was super fun with it. And most chrysabellas are, but usually they defend themselves. Yeah,

[22:40] Speaker 2: oh yeah. She's, she seemed like she, she didn't take things too seriously. And she's, which is great, because in the context of the show, she was brilliant, completely. I saw her from the front row. I went back, because I go and see shows a lot, over and over just to study them, but from the front row, and then I saw the show from the very last row in the Neil Simon theater. And the exact same impact,

[23:12] Mike Abrams: completely. Yeah, I was definitely up in that when I saw her. But if you get a chance, I mean, I think her Macy's Day Parade version is, is out there. I mean, there's some, there's some videos of her singing memory that are, that are on YouTube, that are, you know, incredible. So it's glad I got to see her do it in 2017 I feel happy, especially after getting to see because she's very different than Leona Lewis. So sitting like two very different grizabellas was, yeah, and the only two times I've ever seen the show live are those two experiences. So eventually I'm gonna get to see a tour or a third version or another version. But right now, I for as much as I know, I've still only seen the show twice live

[23:57] Speaker 2: well, and what two amazing performers to see, because I thought that they both, I agree with you. I thought that they both had very different takes on the character of Grizabella Leona Lewis was a little more she was a little slower, a little more languid, and you could feel the weight of everything on her. I thought maybe Paris, while she moved slow, she felt a little more brittle and confused. As I got, I got the vibe that she was like losing her memory in her mind. Oh, my God, did you see what I just did? That was, that was an unintentional pun. I'm very, very sorry about that, but, but you know what I mean? And a lot of, a lot of the grizabellas are like that. They, if you look you, I think that it's one of those great roles, because it, you can play it to the strength of the performer and and sort of the vibe they give up on stage, yeah, and they have

[24:56] Mike Abrams: to do it in 15 minutes. That's the craziest part they have. 15 minutes on stage. So to convey a message like that, of that much power is a feat in itself,

[25:06] Speaker 2: right? And like little itty bitty doses here and there. You know, I would think that the hardest part of that you probably have heard him say this is just staying in that mindset when you're sitting back in your dressing room,

[25:20] Mike Abrams: yeah, belting out. I mean, they, they gotta really belt out at the end of the show.

[25:26] Speaker 2: Yeah, they're not, you know, on sort of the roller coaster ride of the dancing like the rest of the cats are. They're just, they just pop in and have to, you know, be downtrodden and loud completely.

[25:37] Mike Abrams: We'll be back for more of this cat's tastrophe After a short break.

[25:42] Speaker 2: So anyways, I don't know if I had said so, but the the cats giveth on the revival. Okay, they really, really did. And now, and I'm sure that this is discussed ad nauseam, 2019 the movie, which is

[25:56] Mike Abrams: what started this podcast, was the trailer for this movie, really, that was what triggered it. That's what triggered the joke. That's what triggered the request to start the podcast. And that's how it went. And really, I led everything up to seeing the movie in press. So we saw a press press version pretty early. We saw the version that was not finished, you know, the one that got because they famously finished it that week. So I did get to see with the producer the show, a press version. But, yeah, everything, everything that movie is, what is really, you know, the butterfly effect of this whole podcast.

[26:34] Speaker 2: It's like, the total catalyst. It went and like, what a great catalyst for it.

[26:39] Mike Abrams: It's, it's, it was definitely life changing in many ways.

[26:45] Speaker 2: Cats life changing. That could be their new, you know, their new slogan,

[26:50] Mike Abrams: right there. Okay, so, like, when did you go see this? Did you go see it like opening night, like we went

[26:56] Speaker 2: and saw it on Christmas Day. I think it opened to the public. On Christmas Day it

[27:00] Mike Abrams: open. Yeah, around then it opened. It might have been that it was that weekend. Basically it was like leading up to that so, yeah, so you went on Christmas

[27:08] Speaker 2: Day, yeah. I mean, David's family lives in California. My family lives in Alabama now, so we weren't with our family. So a bunch of you know, a bunch of you know, orphans got together and went and saw cats on Christmas day and went went for sushi afterwards. Yeah, isn't that appropriate? That's exactly, that's, that's an intentional pun. But we did go for sushi. I think it was the only thing open on Christmas Day. Now, I actually don't really have like, the hatred of the movie. I thought it was I thought it was okay. I thought it was enough so that somebody who could never afford to go to theater could actually watch it and get the gist. I do agree that it needed a lot more work. I felt like it needed, like, like, an additional $50,000,000.02 more months in the CGI studio.

[28:03] Mike Abrams: They spent 50 million more than they should have to begin with. They spent over $100 million on that movie. Well,

[28:10] Speaker 2: at that point, you know, when they're just burning money, it's like they should have, they should have caught somebody. Should have coughed up 50 million more. And just to make it passable and watchable. I mean, everybody was talking about like the cat's feet would disappear and the lines were fuzzy and stuff. I didn't really catch that. I will tell you this. I did not care for Jennifer Hudson as Grizabella.

[28:34] Mike Abrams: Okay, I actually didn't mind her that much. That wasn't my that wasn't my gripe. I had a lot of other grapes, but I think mine are different than a lot of like most people's. I was personally not a fan of their some of the just the decisions they made, not about the movie. They released it against I forget what it was, a Marvel movie or something else like it opened on the same day as, like, a mega movie as well. They released the trailer the same day that Top Gun released their trailer, which still hasn't come out as of now, but like, they made a lot of questionable decisions for what should be a movie that was going to be a blockbuster. Like you don't you try to own a weekend, or you try to own a piece, and they just didn't do any of it. And so that was my bigger grab. Is just like the business decisions behind a lot of it felt really off, and then the job, cutting, editing, like you couldn't see the dance. I didn't mind the Victoria being the like Narrator all the way through. I thought that was pretty clever. I didn't mind Taylor Swift's part. I didn't mind the new song. Like most of that stuff, didn't bother me as much as the a lot of the like clear decisions about making this into a mega movie that failed, and it seemed like I could have told you that that wasn't going to work before any of the other criticisms.

[29:48] Speaker 2: Well, when I saw the the trailers early on, I thought, cool. You know, I could buy into I could buy into what I'm seeing. I really could. I was, I was disappointed, as far as that goes. I didn't really think of it from a marketing perspective, but I did, I did think that it needed, like, a lot more work before they released. Oh, totally.

[30:13] Mike Abrams: I think what, what tipped me off was I did see a press viewing, which was just a field theater. It was the day after, like, the true press opening, like the big, kind of major one. But so everybody in that theater was either press or family and friends. So it should be a crowd that is professional that, or that is there for it. And about 510, minutes in, everyone's laughing, like, like, vocally, hysterically laughing, and that was the moment I was like, it doesn't matter what happens. If this crowd can't handle it, then there's no public audience that's going to be able to handle this the way that they intended it to be handled like that was not the intention of that movie. It wasn't supposed to be a laugh at the screen movie. It was supposed to be a serious version of this production, and people were cracking up.

[31:03] Speaker 2: They were doing the same thing in the theater we were in. Again, I wasn't, but I I kind of liked it. I don't know. Maybe I gave it way too much.

[31:17] Mike Abrams: I would be very curious to hear your take after because I did. I watched. I tried to watch it. Let me rephrase that. I tried to watch it with my family in Indiana. And we got about halfway through, and they all looked at me and a couple of my mom's the theater fan like I thought that they would enjoy. I got the people who I knew wouldn't enjoy, like my dad away. I'm like, don't even, don't even attempt this. So I got the people in my family I thought would enjoy it about halfway through the community. Does it get any better? And I go, not really. This is pretty much the level you're gonna see. And they turned it off. And so it's, I would love to, like, even I was just like, Yeah, I'm good. I don't even see the rest. I'd love to see you re watch it and see, like, was it the magic of the moment, of, like, the hype around it, and it was 2019 and Christmas, and you did have a, you know, it, it was where you realize that you had your husband for forever, like, is there that moment, or was it just you actually truly enjoyed

[32:12] Speaker 2: it? No, I mean, I don't. I wouldn't say that I enjoyed it, but I didn't hate it, like everybody else was hating it, that I was with one of the big reasons why I didn't like Jennifer Hudson is because she was nose crying through half of it, and that was grossing me after a big way. It was like, Oh my God, come on, blow your nose. I know you've got an Oscar, but yeah, I mean, I wanted to. I liked it like I liked the dear Evan Hansen movie, I was grateful that whoever can't afford to come and see a version of this can actually see a version of it. Is it the best? No, but it's there it is. So

[32:51] Mike Abrams: it's interesting timing that you bring that up, because I did see and I am, we're gonna by the time this release is gonna be a little past, but somebody on Twitter, and I don't know who it was mention, because right now, when we're recording this, Coachella is going on, and Coachella is basically live streaming on YouTube, so you can watch Coachella performances as they are. And that's always been a well, they sell out. How will they do that? And someone on theater Twitter posted like, Could this be the blueprint? Like, could we do this? Could we put a show out once a week or every once in a while? And I'm all for that, because I do think, like the Hamilton on Disney, plus helped a lot of people see Hamilton, who otherwise would probably have trouble finding the four tours that are on or Broadway, and it's not as accessible, or the money, or the money, yeah, I mean, just in general, it's hard, it's expensive and hard to get to. And so in Indiana, five shows come through a year. That's it. There's five tours, and that's all you get from Broadway. Or you get local regional theater. And so putting this on a platform that makes it accessible, I don't think hurts ticket sales, I think would help. And so I was excited to read that, and hoping that, like maybe that becomes a reality.

[34:01] Speaker 2: Well, it very definitely became a reality over the COVID shutdown. For sure, it was the really what we had left was anything that was online, whether it was, you know, picking up clips off of YouTube or going onto zoom and seeing readings and things like that. But, yeah, I mean, I don't really necessarily want to take away the value of being able to go and see live theater and the challenge that sometimes we have with that, because that in itself is an art form. But I do like it when you can bring the theater, even if it's after a little while. You know, when the producers make back their money or whatever, you can bring the theater to the people. Yeah,

[34:47] Mike Abrams: and I saw that idea, it immediately resonated. And I kept thinking, you know, I'm a subway right away to any show I want to see. And if I have the cash, you can basically get a ticket to anything if you. Have enough. I mean, some are expensive, but you can get into most shows. And that's not the case for my family, you know, in Indiana or, you know, they're waiting for, oh god, I forget. Mean, girls, I think, was the last thing that was there, like they're waiting for their tour to come through. And it's just different, you know, again, cost everything that goes with it. Being able to say, You know what? I could stream that in that window and make a massive reach would help for some of these things like you listed off in the beginning of this podcast, a bunch of things I'd never even heard of. And I don't know if I could ever go find video. I mean, I guess I'd go do a press inquiry at the Lincoln Center and try to get into their library and watch a recording. But you can't go find most these things. And I've, and I know this because I've actually tried. I've wanted to see a couple older productions of things that are super famous, and it just they just don't exist. And I know that they do, because I know they recorded them all, but they're just not there's Broadway HD, and there's a couple things that have a few but there's not a stage performance of a lot of things. And I, as someone who now has learned stuff over time, but you know, would like to see some of this history of some of these shows that just aren't on current stage. It's really hard to find,

[36:12] Speaker 2: yeah. I mean, you might be able to find, like a community theater production that will post their their production on on YouTube. But, yeah, I agree. I agree. And the paradigm is very, very different from in Alabama, or you said you're from Idaho, Indiana, Indiana, sorry, other I knew the

[36:37] Speaker 2: Indiana. I remember, I took my my sister and my niece and nephew, who are teenagers, to see dear Evan Hansen. And I was like, well, it's not, you know what I've seen on stage and and they were like, we loved it. We loved it. And that's, that's a very different take than you'd get if you asked some people here in in New York, and, and, you know, I which, I don't know, I thought they were too mean to that show, but I also love that show, like, tremendously. So, so, yeah, I mean, I see what you mean, yeah. And, and so it is helpful, and maybe not in the help, helpful in the way we think about it on the coast, but go a little, you know, towards the center of the United States, and they're glad. They're glad for

[37:26] Mike Abrams: it, completely, completely, yeah, all right, this is getting a little too we got a little too serious for this podcast, so we're gonna switch gears. I want to go into rapid fire. I want to talk about some some pieces of the show and your take on it. So if you were in the show. Which cat would you want to play?

[37:42] Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I would probably want to play the one who does the least amount of dancing. That's

[37:50] Speaker 3: probably Old Deuteronomy, or Buster for Joe. Yeah, I'm thinking they're going

[37:53] Speaker 2: to give me Old Deuteronomy. I mean, I am old enough and I have the low voice to play. I'll even sit on the damn tire through intermission, yeah.

[38:01] Mike Abrams: I mean, that's crazy. That is a crazy piece of this. Yeah, okay, I don't I all Deuteronomy. I love it. What is your favorite song on the show?

[38:11] Speaker 2: I'd have to say the one that I think really slays if it, if it's done well, is Uncle Jerry and Rumpel teaser. The

[38:18] Mike Abrams: first time I saw it, that was the song stuck in my head. Yeah? The entire time I left the theater, like, yeah. And I didn't know any of the songs, except for memory, when I walked in there, had no idea. And the whole time that was the song I sang. So I'm with you. I think that that's like, such a cool piece, too. It's also one of the few times that it's just those two cats on stage, like, it's not the whole group kind of together,

[38:40] Speaker 2: yeah, that's that song. That number has to slay. Yeah, it really does it, because I've seen on on lines of people not doing it well and out of breath and stuff. So anyways, go on next question. Who are

[38:52] Mike Abrams: your favorite and least favorite cats in the show? Okay?

[38:56] Speaker 2: Um, I think I'm, I'd have to say Mr. Musto please is my least favorite. I think she's kind of kind of conceded and stuck up and and very she's a little too precious for me, okay. And I think my favorite cat is probably, and this has to do with the last performer who played her. Is Jenny, any dots, and I loved that she taps. And I don't know if you know the actress who played her, her name is Eloise crop. She is a brilliant tap dancer. I saw her in dames at sea, I think, in the production that they did a couple of years ago here in New York. She is amazing, yeah, and

[39:36] Mike Abrams: she was in so I have interviewed her. She's amazing, phenomenal. And was, again, such an amazing tap dancer. She was in West Side Story, the movie, and then I think she's in music, man, right now, she was, I

[39:51] Speaker 2: think so, yeah, yeah. She's, she's, she works so much, and she deserves to work a lot. She's, she's, great, yeah.

[39:59] Mike Abrams: I. Okay, so Jenny, the the mother, we figure, but a lot of this, I love that a lot of this relates to, like, your experiences with it, because most people I talk to are either like the die hards, like they they know more than I do in and outs of it, or they were in the show, and so they in the show. It's interesting to hear, because they can't get the mindset out of their own character. It's like, I'm not supposed to like them, because my cat's not supposed to like them. So over the course of doing that, I've started to, you know, to actually bring that to real life. Wow, there's a lot of relationships between the cats. If we, if you like, really dig deep. That's something that I've been fascinated about asking characters. Because there are some that are together there. There are some that are probably brothers and sisters. There are some that might be fooling around on the side, like there is a very, very dark web of this community.

[40:48] Speaker 2: Damn. I'm gonna have to look that. I'm gonna have to, like, go in and type, you know, cats, the musical dark web and

[40:53] Mike Abrams: see what. I'll send you a couple things. There's a, there's a lot there. Well, just don't, just don't do the deep dive into the fan fiction. That would be my recommendation that will get there are, like, novels out there, like full on novels of fan fiction. Most of them are between mustafales and Tugger. Like, 90% of them are the two of them being together. So like, gay cats, the musical fan fiction about those two being in a relationship together. Yeah, I would definitely avoid that. Anyway, there are, like, literally, books absurd, I read as much as I could as research for this. You know, when I was doing the monologs of that and even that was like, not good for my mental health. It was too it was too deep, it was too dark. It was, like, a lot of it was just like, I mean, the thing that's crazy about it is it's so over the top, because some of them are, are really, really well written. Like, these are people who put a lot of time and effort into it, and it's their outlet to write that type of, you know, it's like 50 Shades of Gray came from Twilight. Like, someone should publish one of these castles, but I found one with like, 30 chapters.

[41:59] Speaker 2: You know, it takes me, like, 10 years to write a play. I don't know who has the time to write gay cats, the musical fan fiction, but

[42:07] Mike Abrams: 1000s of stories on one fan fiction website that I found actually, hold on, I can pull it up. I'm gonna ask you my next question, and as I do that, I'm gonna pull up the because I have exactly how many I found at the time I read this. So

[42:26] Mike Abrams: are. We're gonna get to our the million dollar question, okay, because I still have give it. Oh, no, really, let's go. Let's go through them quickly while I look this up too. Okay,

[42:36] Speaker 2: so for the film, the cats take it away. Now right after that, one of the byproducts of the film, the cats giveth, and that's the the Esquire review. You know what I'm talking I

[42:48] Mike Abrams: do well I do because you told me about it in our pre chat. And so I do know exactly what you're talking about. Do you look it up? I did.

[42:55] Speaker 2: Okay, people out there, you have to just type in Esquire cats review. This dude from Esquire magazine was a journalist tasked to review the movie brought his dad, I think it's from, they're from Kentucky, and he wrote his dad's review. Go in there and read it huge, if that's that's like the Adel the zine of cats. For me, the cats give it. And then, of course, I can't do this without mentioning our fear one of our fearless leaders, Dory Berenstein, co founder and CEO of Broadway Podcast Network. She CO produced and directed, along with, I believe it's her daughter, Sammy can old a documentary called The shows must go on, which delved deeply into two productions. One was Phantom and the other was cats as they work diligently to open and perform during like the throes of the pandemic, not now, but way back in the day. The film is inspirational, and it is wonderful. It's a wonderful ode to the theater world. So please everybody, go find that and watch it. It's very, very it's brilliant.

[43:58] Mike Abrams: It's so good. Sammy did such an amazing job with it. And, yeah, I mean, it's, it's such a, like, a time capsule, almost, of like, what that experience was like, and so unique. And, yeah, it was the South Korea production, right? That that she that where they did it, essentially in a bubble of cats. That was the one that she was mostly interviewing with. So wild. Yeah, it

[44:19] Speaker 2: was wild. I mean, we had where we were completely shut down and dark. Over here they're, they're taking this to different theaters in different locations. So the cats giveth there. Okay, final score. The cats giveth four times. The cats take it away two times. So the cats have not been that bad, to

[44:44] Mike Abrams: Wow. I really thought, okay, so I, I definitely thought a couple of these are going to be I thought more of your history skewed earlier, but it sounds like it's the more recent that you've really it's it's giveth, more recently, which I love. Yes,

[44:56] Speaker 2: it's given, given. Give it a lot. Lately, amazing. You know, I did okay

[45:01] Mike Abrams: now, before I before I pull up, I really grabbed my my last question. I did pull this up. So in the Mr. Misophys episode, I think it's like the ninth, eighth or ninth episode, I did the research. I found 3200 cats and musical stories on fanfiction.net 203 that included most office and Tugger, and the one that I read a few lines of in that episode was written in 2009 and it had 15 chapters, 17,000 words, and it was written by Cleo Leo, and it was called tug my heart strings. And I pulled out some quotes from it. So if you want to hear that, you can do the reason I particularly pick this is because she, I'm assuming she, to be honest, but the author decided that Tugger should be the Jellicle choice over Grizabella. And so as someone who has argued at length that I don't think Grizabella should be the Jellicle choice, I was really excited to see someone write a 1715, chapter, 17,000 word story that did end up with the same, you know, ending plot as mine. So that is my question for you. Is what I'll ask everybody to end the show. Do you want to defend Grizabella as your Jellicle Joyce? Or, if not, who else would you would you choose if, since we've established, you'd be all Deuteronomy.

[46:21] Speaker 2: Okay, I have a backup and, but I do have to defend Grizabella, and I think I have a different reason for it. My backup is Jenny, any dots, because she's eventually gonna break her cat ankles if she has to keep dancing on the older side. It fits. It fits. And she's heavy, you know? She's got, yeah, she's, she's so maybe, but I still have to go with Grizabella, and I'm going to read this because I can find no good reason for the other cats to hate her this much. I want to talk to the other grizabellas and find out what, what they think. It's a very thinly drawn character. More importantly, Old Deuteronomy is going to need someone to take over for him. He's ancient, and I think that Grizabella and Old Deuteronomy are striking a pact up on the tire while the other cats are busy singing, up up up past the Russell hotel where he expects her to come to him when she comes back down for another life, he'll train her to be the next new cat leader, and then she can send him up to the heavy Side layer the next year, if he's not dead yet, think of the conflict and the espionage. There's cats too, right there for you.

[47:27] Mike Abrams: Wow. Okay, so your version is, I'm, we're gonna break this down here. This is, this is my favorite part of this. Of every episode, is getting to hear the different theories. So your belief is, is that he's picking her to as a like, it's a collusion to make her the choice this year so she can come back. She'll remember, you know, I guess memory, she'll remember and come back and make him the choice next year, and then she's going to now be in charge next year, right? That is going to make monkeys trap really angry. Oh, because he is very much supposed to be the next in line, is he? Yeah, that's one of the few things I think that, like they've there's some visual cues to it, of he's directly below Deuteronomy. He's one of the sons. He's the one that kind of takes charge. So, but I love it. I like the idea that she's gonna be I like any cats two story you can start writing. So I love that she's gonna die, come back, and then it's like, look, it's your turn. There's gonna be my turn. It's gonna be a quid pro, quid pro quo here, this whole thing, and then she's gonna take over that you are definitely the first person that's made this argument. And I love it. Wow. You could tell I thought really hard about it. I mean, you put, you did put some thought in it's shocks me how a handful of people come on and are surprised when I ask this question. And I'm always like, you know, the show is called the rock had died. Like, of course, we're gonna go about this. But yeah, I I'm here for it. I do think that the the idea that everyone hates her, I think there's some backstory to that. It seems like she abandoned them.

[49:00] Speaker 2: I can't find anything. I can't find anything. And grizzabel, the glamor cat, the song, I mean, I mean, what did she do? Did she was Did she steal cat boyfriends? Did she was she mean to every all I can see is that she would haunt a couple of bars. So she's a Barfly cat. Big deal.

[49:20] Mike Abrams: The rumor is that she leaves the tribe, which is very cultish, so you're not supposed to leave to begin with, and goes and becomes like a sex worker, and so shames the tribe, and that is why and abandon them and abandon, probably her children, that there's a couple that you could make an argument. Might be her kittens, and then she's coming back after she's kind of had a rough life.

[49:46] Speaker 2: Now, see, you're very fortunate that you had all the grizabellas on to fill in the blanks, because I was, I tried, I really did. I tried to find it, you know. But I was like, they're just a bunch of millennial cats, and they hate her because. She's

[50:00] Mike Abrams: old. Oh, there is most of the stuff, which is why this show is so bizarre. You can't pick up like i There are a few cues. If you really watch some of them, you can pick up a couple things of like, they might turn first, or they might like, be staged together. So you can assume that they maybe are together. But for the most part, all of this has been filled in because the revival and the original Broadway like they go through the cat's story and they basically someone will tell them every single character's whole back story, or what they're supposed to be thinking about. And none of it is like most of it's not portrayed super clearly on stage. It's supposed to be what they're like channeling as they're dancing and doing their stuff. So that's why, basically this why my show is so basic.

[50:45] Speaker 2: I'm sorry to interrupt you. I apologize. I've just, I can't believe this. Basically, when a cast member gets hired on, they give them their whole cat story.

[50:55] Mike Abrams: They give them a lot. They give them a lot more. They give them a pretty good kind of deep dive. They give them three words that are supposed to be the like adjectives of their character. They give them some relationships that they might be playing to. There's a couple of things that are like, very clearly, this is accepted truth. And there are a couple of things it's like, yeah, we kind of assume this, but we're not positive. Wow. I

[51:17] Speaker 2: would just love to know like, the arc of where that started and how it developed. That's that's a book in its I

[51:23] Mike Abrams: have been trying to get a couple of people that have been on it, but it's also part of the lore that I don't think they want it to be like, fully shared. So what I have been doing, and why this show is 70 plus episodes in, is I'm getting individual versions of it from the previous cast members of what they can remember about their character. And so you can hear, you know, the past episodes, really, that's what I'm asking about. They're digging deep into, are you related to this cat? Are you, you know, did you get told about that? What is the backstory? How do you, how do you approach this? And that's my fascination with the show currently and still.

[51:58] Speaker 2: So it's not just you just, you go to Cat school for a couple of weeks and learn how to, you know, Preen yourself, and to do that too, all around like, I didn't realize that this is another part. Oh

[52:09] Mike Abrams: yeah, they go through a whole, like, day or two story of the whole backstory of everybody. Wow. So one day, I'm gonna get that cat's Bible and I'm gonna share it with the world. Until then, I'm piecemealing it together. I'd

[52:23] Speaker 2: pay a textbook price to get that cat's Bible from you. I think I'd pay $120

[52:30] Mike Abrams: for that. I think a lot of people want it, and why it's probably not possible to get it very easily. Wow. Come on, Mike, one day I'm working on it. You

[52:39] Speaker 2: can do it. You're the guy who came in with very little knowledge about cats, except it was going to be a movie, and you've done all this.

[52:45] Mike Abrams: This is true. This is true. I'm getting there. I'm slowly getting there for everybody.

[52:53] Mike Abrams: That's exactly right. Well, I want you to tell everybody a little bit about how they can hear your show, and what to expect from your show and how to stay in touch. Okay,

[53:03] Speaker 2: your program is your ticket is a discussion of smaller theater works, and the people in organizations that make it happen, it's there to give them a little help, and, you know, maybe bring in some extra bodies and more money to their shows, which can sometimes make a difference in a small theater, you can find your program is your ticket on the Broadway Podcast Network, along with my friend Mike. Here, I am on all of the social medias, I think, except maybe Tik Tok. I'm on facebook@facebook.com, your program is your ticket. I'm on Twitter at ad program ticket. Instagram and YouTube at your program is your ticket? ITunes stitcher player FM podcast, podcast, sorry, iTunes stitcher player FM podcast addict, podbean, Pocket Cast, that's why screw it up. Deezer, tune in, listen notes. And I'm also on the UK based theater platform, thespy, and I appreciate all good ratings and reviews and subscriptions. So please do that, if you would be so kind. I have a personal website. It's Sean W chandler.com don't forget the W, because there is a Sean Chandler that's a writer, but he writes westerns. I'm also a writer, and you could look at all of my projects that I work on. I write plays and screenplays and TV shows and stuff. So there we go,

[54:21] Mike Abrams: amazing. And we'll put all that in the description too, so it'll be linked to make it a little easier. So thanks. Thank you for being an amazing guest and sharing your experiences with the show and your I guess, the celebration of the show, validating your marriage and all the the different times you've been able to kind of see it over over the years.

[54:42] Speaker 2: It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me on Mike. What a what a wonderful treat,

[54:45] Mike Abrams: amazing. And thanks everyone else for listening to this episode of the wrong cat died, the podcast, breakdown of the cast, atrophy to follow along. You can subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, or anywhere else you listen to the podcast, follow us on Twitter and Instagram at the wrong cat died, or check out our website. The wrong cat died. Dot com, you.