This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast brought to you by The Cat Statistica. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and we have another From The Vault episode for you during this holiday season. This episode was episode number 37 with Colin Cunliffe, who was Skimbleshanks in the 2016 Revival of Cats. This episode with Colin was released in March of 2021 and was an incredibly fun episode I wanted to bring back. Colin was hilarious with his thoughts on Skimble and was probably one of the first guests that came and criticized my take on Skimble from the first character episodes where I kind of explained my thoughts on Skimble. So I love this episode. Colin's also in Cabaret right now on Broadway. So if you have a chance to see Colin there, he is so much fun in that show. And I loved everything about this episode. So I wanted to bring back this episode from pretty early on, episode number 37 with Colin Cunliffe. Enjoy the episode.

[0:57] Mike Abrams: There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. And the wrong one died. And the wrong one died. Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of The Cat Statistica. I'm your host, Mike Abrams. And today we have an amazing guest. He starred as Skimbleshanks in the 2016 Broadway Revival of Cats. Welcome, Colin Cunliffe. And thank you for joining me.

[1:29] Colin Cunliffe: Thank you for having me, Mike.

[1:31] Mike Abrams: I am very excited to talk to you. I have done a little bit of research and had a little bit of conversations about Skimble Shanks, but I think there's a lot more to dig here. But before we get into the character and the plot and everything else, I loved it here. Let me just hear your background with the musical, because I know you were in a touring production prior to the Broadway Revival, but have you seen it before? What is your – do you see it as a kid? When was your introduction?

[1:56] Colin Cunliffe: I have a long history with this show. I'm one of those kids. I listened to the Broadway recording, the cast recording, for years. I'd actually seen my brother perform the Rum Tum Tugger number in a high school musical. It was an Andrew Lloyd Webber revue. It wasn't the first time my brother – he was older, so I was just a little bit in awe. And I was like, that's so cool. To which then got me into the cast recording. And years later, ended up going and seeing the London production. I had written in my – for a school report, when I turn 18, I'm going to move to New York and be in Cats on Broadway. So it was like tearing me up.

[2:40] Mike Abrams: You're a super fan.

[2:41] Colin Cunliffe: A super fan. But I actually hadn't even seen the show yet when I'd written that, so I didn't even really know the show.

[2:46] Mike Abrams: You saw the high school production. Well, tell me about this high school production. That's almost more fascinating than the Broadway production.

[2:53] Colin Cunliffe: Well, it was actually – it was a selection of Andrew Lloyd Webber numbers. So there were a few different ones, and there was – the Rum Tum Tugger was a number, and I think it was just –

[3:04] Mike Abrams: I love that for high school, they pick that. They give all the options to choose from for the cast. They're going to pick Tugger, thrust on stage in high school.

[3:13] Colin Cunliffe: Exactly. So I saw the London production with a friend, loved it, was very torn on whether I was a Rum Tum Tugger or a Skimbleshanks or a MonkaStrap. So they were pulling me in all different directions of my personality. And then there was an audition right when I graduated theater school in New York for the first non-equity tour of the show.

[3:38] Mike Abrams: So that's where you started, right? So you went on tour as a swing, and who did you cover?

[3:43] Colin Cunliffe: I covered – they called it the big boys swing track. And it was one of those moments I didn't really know what a swing was. It was my first big professional job. And they're like, so you got it. And I'm like, oh my god, great. They're like, so you're going to be covering all these cats? And I was like, well, but which one do I get to play? And they're like, no, you get to play all of them if somebody's sick or injured. I was like, oh, okay, I think this is good. And it was probably best I didn't know what I was getting myself into because I ended up covering seven tracks in the show. Let's see, there was MonkaStrap, Skimbleshanks, Rum Tum Tugger, Mungo Jerry, Tumble Brutus – I did not tumble – and Plato Macavity.

So Plato Macavity is, for one part of the show, he's Plato, and then the next part, he's Mungo. Mike, you've gotten so much knowledge now. And it's funny, for the audition, I'd gone and I was like, I'm a tugger, man. So I went in with black velvet belled jazz pants and a ripped army tank top and was like, what's up? And went for it. And they were probably like, this poor, poor kid, let's give him a callback just to be nice. And the musical director, Kristen Blodgett, she was like, this kid's a skimble. And so they gave me all this skimble material. And I kept being like, no, I'm a tugger. And it started, I think, then my long history of feeling actually the connection with quite a few of these cats.

[5:20] Mike Abrams: That is. And so this is your first job. And you didn't even realize that you basically had seven jobs now. You had to figure out seven lines and seven tracks and everything to go with it.

[5:32] Colin Cunliffe: Correct. Yeah. We're learning, you know, we're learning the show and you learn, we learned the Jellicle Ball first and it was the full companies learning this. And then they were like, okay, they started staging the number and they were like, okay, all the swings step out. And that's when they started just running the show with the playing company. And I was like, oh, I, okay. I'm starting to see what this is going to be. But, you know, I think years later, my body is very grateful for that. And it's just, it's wild because then, and then 20 years later, auditioned for the Broadway, this Broadway revival, didn't get it. And then got a call out of the blue a year later and asked me if I would come in the following Tuesday to start rehearsals.

[6:15] Mike Abrams: And you, so who did you audition for when you came back for the revival? Was it for Skimbleshanks?

[6:20] Colin Cunliffe: Same deal. They were like, we want to see you for Skimbleshanks. And I'm like, listen, I'd really like to do Tugger. Can I do the Tugger material? And they were like, sure. Okay. Yeah. And I went in and I did the Tugger material once. I'm like, great, let's work on the Skimble stuff again. I was like, can't they just see me as a Tugger? But it's actually this beautiful, I mean, I, Kristen Blodgett, who was, like I said, the musical director for this non-equity tour 20 years ago, who later is doing this Broadway revival. And I just think she, you know, she knows, she knows this show more than anyone. She's been involved for a very, very long time. She is a goddess when it comes to music and musical direction and conducting. And I just adore that woman with all my heart. And, but when she is set on what cat you are, I don't think she can have buds.

[7:14] Mike Abrams: You are typecasted now in her mind and you're in. So you came in halfway through, or partway through. I find it fascinating of like, there's the whole, the cat school and learning through it. But then when you come in, you kind of are continuing, you get a little bit less of that. So what were you told? I mean, you definitely, as a fan, knew more about this, but what are you told on like, hey, here's how you really need to play Skimbleshanks?

[7:38] Colin Cunliffe: They, um, I went and got my, my score because I, I had a hunch that I could bring this up, but they, they gave basically gave you, I think these were three words describing the path. Three words that your cast, that your cast definitely dealt with. Yes. Um, so Skimbles, I was told, uh, what was it? Self-regarding, caring, and bright.

[8:03] Mike Abrams: Interesting.

[8:04] Colin Cunliffe: I know. And we have a lot to talk about, Mike, because I listened to your Skimble. Um, well, let's start with Skim is not a good nickname. I get Skimble Shanks is long, but, but we go with Skimble, not Skim.

[8:20] Mike Abrams: Okay. So what's one thing I think is super fascinating about this, and this is a little behind the scenes for anybody who's listened from the beginning. I recorded those in order and I basically learned the stuff as it went. So if you listen to the first kind of couple, I clearly had no idea what was happening like later on in the show. And then as I've learned more of her time, I listened back to him. I'm like, Oh, and I was reading back being like, I definitely felt some weird things or thought some weird things. Now that I know more, I'm like, Oh, that makes more sense. Like I should probably redo all of these. Um, but that's so what I want to hear. What else you have? Cause like skim. Okay. So Skimble. Yeah, he is. I I'm down for the uncle. He is definitely like the uncle, like the trial. I like to, he's like a little gay uncle. I like to think of him as, um, definitely not the creepy uncle though. He's not the home alone guy.

[9:14] Colin Cunliffe: I was so sad when I heard you say that they loved you. Kimball. I like to thank her and the hope. I do think I was a little scarred. And I told the story about his production and by being like blinded by that number. And I think there's some like subconscious animosity there that came out when I was writing where I'm just like, I, you know, I get it. I love it. It was cool. Like the whole, I was like, cause I was fascinated by that whole building the train. I was like, you know, I love the set design aspect of this. I was like, Oh, this is cool. This is going to be a wheel. And this is going to be that. And then I couldn't see like the whole for like five minutes after. And I was mad and I was sitting there just mad. And so I think I really just, I project a lot of that in the episode, that anger onto a skimball.

[10:00] Mike Abrams: Fair, fair enough. Fair enough.

[10:02] Colin Cunliffe: I mean, I do. And there is some, we'll get to the cast when we treat, but there is rumors that is the, that he is an uncle for a lot of the cats. And so I think that's where it came from.

[10:11] Mike Abrams: Yes. But maybe I was a little too harsh.

[10:15] Colin Cunliffe: It's all right. That's why we're chatting now.

[10:17] Mike Abrams: That's why you set the record straight. So I would have thought there would have been a word, something with orderly or something more like is very prompt. And like that character keeps everything in line, almost like Jenny a little bit, but in a different way. And so I do find the, those three words, they make sense, but I was definitely thinking there'd be a different route.

[10:40] Colin Cunliffe: There he is. I mean, that's the cool thing about skimball. And that's why I love him so much is that he, yes, he's very orderly and, and he gets the things done and all that, but he's, he is a little mischievous. Like the lie at the, on the opening is at 1142 with the signal overdue and the passengers all frantic to a man that's when he would appear. And it's so he knows that they're late, but he's been busy in the luggage van doing, but he's waiting for them to freak out before he then comes out as like, it's fine. We can go. I'm here, but you know, so he's playing around with them.

[11:20] Mike Abrams: Okay. It's a little more like that. I think it's a little more mischievous. And I think that's where then he clicks in with the kittens because the kittens and skimball are together a lot. And they liked him with that. And I think it's because he's, he is still playful. He likes to get shit done and it needs to get done, but work hard, play hard.

[11:40] Mike Abrams: That's fair. I can see that. And I think like it is a upbeat, fun number. And so it kind of has some of that aspect to it.

[11:46] Colin Cunliffe: Same deal with Jenny. I don't remember in the revival, if this is how he starts, I think so, but he's sleeping. So he's sleeping and same with Jenny, which I just, I like that little connection because they've been out all night doing their thing and having a blast. And so they're on just kind of a different time clock as well.

[12:07] Mike Abrams: What do you think their relation is? Cause there's, there's two rumors. And then there's also in, I don't know if it's in the 1998 movie or where, I mean, like my, for your production, my knowledge is two shows and trying to just remember what I saw versus I've seen the 1998 production in bits and pieces more than I wish I to admit at this point, because it's what's on YouTube and there's a part where they're holding hands, Jenny and skimball. And so I think that there's a lot of thought that they're either related or together. I think that they are like really, really tight, like best buds that totally get it on together. She's definitely had his kittens and he's raised her. You know, it's like, it's, it's an very incestuous, um, for the whole thing. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But you know, Jenny and skimball.

[12:58] Colin Cunliffe: They team up in the sensual clump in the middle of the ball. They roll downstage together. So, you know, they definitely have their fun together. OK. OK, so he comes out. He's fun. He definitely has that Uncle feel. There's a part in the 1998 movie that I don't know if you did in the revival, because it's, you know, I probably wouldn't have saw it anyways, because it's very quick. But Skimble definitely drops his pants in front of, like, 10 other cats. And it's a, I think it's also part of why, probably, I went the Creepy Uncle route when I was writing this, is that that, to me, was an interesting decision. Not from, like, a musical aspect, but from, like, if I'm thinking about the story and his characters, to have, you know, our train conductor coming in, doing his dance numbers, and all of a sudden, just, like, drop and drop.

He's telling the story of what happens when he goes into, like, the train cars. So he's actually, he's playing the character of the train conductor. It's not him taking off his pants. OK. He's miming taking off pants. Like, he's just gotten to the berth. They're getting ready for bed. He's going to splash some water on his face. So he's saying that, like, it was very pleasant. Yeah, you missed that one. I did not follow that at all when I watched it. So that makes sense. OK, so that makes more sense. What about the handing Old Deuteronomy something? You know, I keep trying to wrap my brain around it. I don't remember this. Is this at the end of the train? Do you know? It's either, I'm trying to think, because I basically just watched the YouTube clip over and over and over again until I got tired of it when I was writing these.

And I just remember him handing something. And I first was like, this looks like a bribe, because Old Deuteronomy gets very excited and shows whatever he handed around. I'm sure he's actually handing him nothing in the musical. But it was intended to be some type of, at first I thought it was just the ticket. Like, he pays, here's your ticket. But the way Old Deuteronomy got excited for it made me think that, you know, and again, the angle I'm taking is that this is a bribe. Like, this is your chance. Absolutely not, Mike. Absolutely. Skimble would never, never do that. Never. He does not mean to. Okay. The way it works. No, I'm trying to think because he comes, he sees him at the beginning of the number and the old dude's kind of like, all right, let's, let's pick this up.

And Skimble's like, yeah, I got it. And then he sees him at the train and he kind of is like, good job, Skimble. But the only other thing I'm thinking is maybe on the video, does he throw the Skimble, throw him the mouse? Like the, that might be it. Yeah, yeah. The imaginary mouse. Then again, he's acting out for like all the kittens and all the cats. I think that might be what you're. But he looks really excited when he gets it. It's a mouse and he'll do the cat and the cat. I guess that's true. So he throws them out. So what's the, what's the story there? Like, why is he throwing on the mouse? Well, that was the, that's really, because we didn't do that. I got it. That was actually a really fun thing.

Each night I'd throw the mouse to a different cat. So, Oh, so you're definitely not bribing. No, no, no, no. It's like, and who like that night was really making Skimble happy. And he's like, okay, you get the mouse, you know, that's a cool marking on stage and they're being lazy, they don't get the mouse. I do love hearing all the different things your production did to kind of have some improv in a show that's not improv. I mean, like with the, the picture and, um, there's just some crazy stories that come from it. Cause I think a lot of people have like very strong visual memories of something that happened in there that could be very different than someone else who saw it. And I think that's like a really cool take that your production did.

Well, I think it's, you know, I think it's built into the show where it's, you know, we don't leave the stage. Um, you, you don't have to get revved back up, you know, it's, you're looking around and you're playing on one of the coolest sets that's ever been designed. Um, the lighting is spectacular. Everyone's in makeup and costume, you know, so you don't have to ever leave the world. And that right there then just provides a lot of opportunity for, you know, relationships. And as you've learned from all this, they're, that's very strong in this show is how everybody's connected. So, you know, it's, it was really cool even coming in halfway through the run and taking kind of what I had done a scramble before 20 years prior.

And it's still kind of, it's still kind of worked. Um, and some of those relationships were oddly very similar with the same cats that, and ones that you wouldn't even, they're not even featured. Those moments aren't featured there in the dark by a pipe in the back, you know, but they're the strong kind of relationship building moments that I think really make that show. So let's talk about one of those with Tyler and Tugger hands. There was, and I've, I think I've gotten a little bit more to the bottom of it cause it was, it was in the rumor mill and Tyler answered some. And then I, um, I've heard that some of this came from the junkyard, which is the fan group that has come to see the show, um, that are, you know, the super fans that have been doing a lot.

And I think that the, essentially they basically saw that there was some friendship and some relationship that isn't normally there between Tugger and Skimbleshanks. And I think that they just went with it. And I'm curious, cause I believe Tyler said that you continued with it when you came on, what, like how much went into that? Like, is that just something where it's just like, Oh, we're going to do this? Or, or when you thought about it 20 years ago, did you also have some relationship with Tugger, which might've also just been because you really wanted to be Tugger. That definitely permeated my Skimbleshanks. Like, I think he, he, he doesn't want to like Tugger, but he does. And, and I think Tugger likes him.

I think that like, you know, Tugger breaks him a little bit. You know, there's, there's times where if, you know, the kittens aren't around or this and that, you know, maybe Skimbleshanks bends a little bit and, you know, they've, they've partied a few times together for sure. I think they've had some fun, you know, but Skimbleshanks can't really reveal that to all the cats. So did you ever take the mouse and say like, I see someone from the junkyard here, down there, and I'm going to throw it to Tugger today just to mess with them? No, I mean, I know, but I might've thrown him the mouse because he's, he's up on like this weird perch. Like he's not really involved with the immediate focus. So of course that's like, that's Tugger gold.

Cause you can just do whatever you want up there. And we've definitely, we would clock in with each other sometimes. And I mean, it would have been rare that I would have thrown it to Tugger though, just because this is Skimbleshanks's moment and this is not the time where Skimbleshanks wants Tugger taking his light. The more I've learned that there's some like deep passion of like where, I mean, to your point where you're, you're mad that I called, called Skimbleshanks like the uncle. And like, I love that there's that people have strong opinions about the show. And I, I mean, I have one strong opinion about the show, which we'll get to, uh, at the end, but the rest are just me kind of like trying to fill in the blanks because I'm more of a like sitcom fan where I like a neat, tidy story.

And I did not get that. And so knowing like, I would have, I wish he would have just been like, yep, I saw that person. I know that they think that these two are supposed to dislike each other. So I'm going to throw it to them. No, there's a little bit there that, that almost goes against the whole show where like, what I love about this show is that the whole thing starts off with like, what the hell are you doing here? Humans, you know, this is not a show for humans. So it's very understandable all the reactions to it. You know, this is a show where the humans have come into the junkyard and we decide after this opening number through the opening number that, okay, we'll let you watch, but we're not going to give you anything.

This isn't about you. We don't care about you. So humans. Okay. Okay. So you start by trying to scare us out with green eyes. See, that was a note. I remember getting a note and I don't, I think this was back when, when I first did the show that green eyes is not meant to scare people. It's the easiest temptation to want to make that be the thing like a boo moment. I was told it's not about scaring people. And so that's good to know. And it makes sense because then it's just like, Hey, they're roaming around and it's there and you're making it about the humans again, it's easy to do that. And I think you need to steer away from that because then that just gives it more of this there in our territory.

It's scared the living daylights out of me. Wait, were you on an aisle? I was not on an aisle and I was so glad I was not on an aisle. And I purposely told the next, the second time I came back a year later, I told my friend, I said, we're not sitting on an aisle, but of course we sat, I think at the last row, like a back row of something. And so then they're behind me jumping over, you know, no, I like to watch the shows. I don't like to be in the shows. I get it. I hate it. Sarah said it too, but it's like, as an audience member, I hate audience participation as an actor. I, I love it. You just mess with people. I mean, you get a break while it's a blast. I get it. Um, I didn't go into this show thinking that I was going to be that, that case.

And so for it to start that way, you know, and again, I saw a matinee the first time I was not prepared for anything. I was going to, going to happen. I really wasn't mentally there. And for it to start that way was, was not, not the way I expected. I mean, again, like a great, a great indication, but also why I'm just like children should not see the show. Yeah. That's, that's very interesting to me. I, I, that's an interesting statement that I've heard you make a few times. People are starting to get convinced me more of it as I've talked to other cast members and fans. There's just a lot. And maybe it's because I've read the story too much. I've read way too deep into it, but I'm, but there's just a lot there.

I'm like, all right, so that's definitely a prostitute. That's definitely going to a brothel. This is an orgy. Um, but it just clearly goes over the heads of kids. But there's like, I mean, it's respectful. It's sensual. It's a sensual clump. It's not the like insertion clump, you know, you don't talk about the violence that happens with Macavity. It's, you know, I think this is a bigger, a bigger discussion in the, is it okay to bring up sensual sexual things if there are, so there's, but then it's like Macavity and Demeter and abusive relationship, there's a kidnap of a, of a sibling. Yeah. That to me, that's more like a grad. There's, and then there's like attacks on each other. That's more aggressive.

And I think harsh than a, than a sensual clump or a hip thrust. It's just, it's, it's all together. You know, it's just like, there's, there's everything like where you can keep going. Every single thing here. And again, I think a lot of it goes over a kid's head and it's just like, Oh, it's cats, it's cool. It's like, it's, it's unbelievable talent and the makeup and the costumes and the set, it's all just like fascinating to watch, but there's, I mean, I could, I could write you 20 different things that are not PG 13 topics in the show that, that come up, that could keep coming up. Um, so that's kind of been my stance, but, uh, at the same time, I'll probably at some point bring my niece or nephew or somebody to it well before they're supposed to see it.

I mean, it's the fascinating, like thing with putting the show together is to like watch and watch people come into the show and have to just get comfy rubbing up on each other. And it's just, you just can't avoid it. Like you just got to go there. And that's why if it's a good company, it's, it's great, which I've been fortunate enough to, um, to work with good companies when I've done the show. But, um, yeah, you're out, you're out on each other. Yeah.

[25:57] Colin Cunliffe: There is some sexual activity that has happened over the years between the two of them. But I don't think that Skimble would necessarily call him his friend. I think he would, you know, it's more of a, can I say that F word on the show?

[26:15] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[26:15] Colin Cunliffe: Yeah. They're kind of like random weird fuck buddies that like, after partying a little too hard at the end of the night, they're like, oh well, okay just don't tell anybody.

[26:25] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it's the opposites attract.

[26:26] Colin Cunliffe: Yeah, totally. Okay, I can see that. And then so we've already discussed Jenny and it's, I think you're Rumpelteaser's uncle.

[26:36] Mike Abrams: That seems to be the consensus.

[26:38] Colin Cunliffe: That or like Rump was a product of me and Jenny. I mean, there's a million ways. I've tried to draw it out. I've had somebody send me their drawings of it. And there's, it's just a lot of dotted lines. That's what I've decided. Is that there's no, there's no straight lines. There's a couple very clear we know, but then everything else is just like, look, they're in an orgy. It's probably, it could be any of the options. And that's what I think a lot of the time. I think they lose track.

[27:05] Mike Abrams: But this was the one that I think threw me off the most is, is it Corpocat? I don't know how to pronounce this one. Again, this is how little I know about the non-main characters, which is a problem for the show.

[27:17] Colin Cunliffe: Which we'll also discuss in a second. But it says it's your adopted son.

[27:22] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Where did you find that? Who says that?

[27:24] Colin Cunliffe: There's a fan page, a fan Wikipedia page that has, it's essentially Wikipedia for everything. And it's in there. There's, there's different rumor mills for everybody. And it's in there. It's just a line. There's no context. That's where I got a lot of these things. I was like, all right, let me try to fill in the blanks here. But I just can't get over the fact that adopted, you know, it's like, this is already a weird family tree. Now we're going to throw in some random adoption. Is he abandoned? That's just random.

[27:49] Mike Abrams: Well, that's, that's what's weird because, um, Corkopat, Corkopat and Tantamile, which are sometimes unfortunately left out of productions. If it's like a scale production, they'll sometimes cut the twins, but they're the twins. And they're very like, very, um, very psychic. They have a lot of like very psychic power. So if you look, there are a lot of the times, like the first ones that see old Deuteronomy, or they're like the connection, get syllabub to sing, you know, at the top of the second act.

[28:21] Colin Cunliffe: So they're very kind of, um, mystical.

[28:24] Mike Abrams: So I would have.

[28:27] Colin Cunliffe: They're also twins and only one is adopted.

[28:29] Mike Abrams: That's exactly it. Yeah. Split them up here.

[28:32] Colin Cunliffe: That's, I don't know. I don't know if that's very cruel of you.

[28:34] Mike Abrams: Exactly. And Skippa wouldn't do that. He would, he would, he'd be the dad to both of them.

[28:39] Colin Cunliffe: Yeah. Okay. So yeah, I don't want to watch that one. I think that we can throw that one out.

[28:43] Mike Abrams: Yeah. It was, again, there was not a lot in most of these rumors. And then, and then for me, I'm watching either the movie or clips of songs and trying to fill in the blanks myself. And to, you know, the point I think is like, I, there's a lot of the cats I probably couldn't point out if you lined them up, because I just don't like, I'm not the super fan of the show. I'm not the one that like came in. I, I ended up here with a, you know, a joke that, that has gone now 30 episodes and I've loved it. And it's been fascinating to learn, but there's still a lot. Like I was looking up growl tiger the other day, cause I'm thinking about trying to maybe dig into that. And why was that whole number kind of canceled? Um, and I was just like, I can't find much on it at all.

[29:31] Colin Cunliffe: And I don't know, like, cause I'm trying to fill in the blanks and the productions with very limited information. Cause I've not seen that number.

[29:34] Mike Abrams: Cause it's not in your show.

[29:38] Colin Cunliffe: It's a little racially insensitive.

[29:41] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[29:46] Colin Cunliffe: Which is why, but it's like, it's one of those things that there's a, and then you go into European productions and productions in Asia where they're just flat out different characters added. And, and there's no, like, there's not productions for me to go watch. So I'm just kind of figuring this out on the fly. And I know there's a lot of stuff I got wrong. And honestly, I, I kind of like my version of it.

[30:07] Mike Abrams: So I'm sticking to it.

[30:08] Colin Cunliffe: I think you're pretty spot on with a lot of stuff though.

[30:11] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[30:12] Colin Cunliffe: I've been really impressed on kind of where and how you connect. That's um, that's the, I think the writer and the storyteller in me piecing together something that I, again, have very little with, but it was like, all right, here's what I didn't have gripes when I left with the ending. And so I was like, I'm going to rewrite parts of this, but what, okay. So let's come back to the piece you want. What, what did you want me to know about the, all the other cats I don't know anything about?

[30:36] Mike Abrams: Well, it was specifically Coraco Pat, just because, you know, I, cause you had referenced before that. It's just not, you know, I don't think he said he wasn't important, but he's very important.

[30:48] Colin Cunliffe: I think he's very like, he's there. The twins are like the conduit energy to like, keep the psychic stuff going with all of us.

[30:57] Mike Abrams: The non-important to me. I just, I think there's no number centered around them, which is probably again, now that I think back, hearing you say that, that's like such a bad way to think about it. Cause there's so much other like incredible dancing and all these other things. Like it's not diminishing the character, but from a storytelling standpoint, like I hadn't thought about the, that psychic piece coming through.

[31:15] Colin Cunliffe: So for me, they're just like, they're not progressing my, the story and especially my story. Cause they're not up, they're not competing. So they're just background dancers. They're, you know, I always joke, they're like the people coming on set, changing the stage for people or like the, you know, if you're doing America's Got Talent or The Voice, they've got some other singers joining them in, but they're not really competing.

[31:40] Mike Abrams: They're not the one that you're going to vote on.

[31:42] Colin Cunliffe: But there, it's also, it's also like one of the hardest, the twins track. It's one of the hardest tracks on the show.

[31:48] Mike Abrams: It's yeah.

[31:50] Colin Cunliffe: A friend of, yeah.

[31:53] Mike Abrams: So, and that's where I, every time I talk to people in the show or people who are just in general in the industry, you, you would watch that show and notice those things. I'm gonna watch that show and say, that's really cool. Those were great dancers. But since that cat wasn't brought to the forefront of like, like I remembered Mungo J and Rumpelteaser because you just sang the names over and over again. And it's like, there, those other cats don't resonate in that fashion.

[32:20] Colin Cunliffe: If you're just watching it from that angle.

[32:22] Mike Abrams: And so as a, as a fan, that's where I'm just like, yeah, they're just, I don't even know who they are.

[32:26] Colin Cunliffe: Right, right. Correct. But the Junkyard does. So like, there's, there's groups of people who do know, and, and there are other people who are in the industry who are going to be like, yes, I understand that track where that's like, there are pieces I'll never know. Someone, I, I think it was Georgina. She like told me a dance count. I'm like, cool. Like, I have no idea what you're talking about.

[32:46] Mike Abrams: Like, I appreciate that you, that you recognize this and other people listening to this will. It was, it was right over my head. I have no idea what you're talking about.

[32:55] Colin Cunliffe: But I, so, okay. I, the only other part of your song I wanted to ask you about is the sneeze.

[33:03] Mike Abrams: Yeah, she's playing along.

[33:05] Colin Cunliffe: She's playing along with the storytelling.

[33:07] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[33:08] Colin Cunliffe: So this is all goes back to like, you're telling the story. That's why you take your pants off. That's what you do. Like, and it's the playful aspect that is, it's the playful aspects with the being on time. It's kind of giving both sides of the personality.

[33:19] Mike Abrams: Exactly. And, and, and I think he is, he's a storyteller. I think that, again, that's why the kittens really like him. He, he does this a lot with them and they're there. That's why, you know, when I was like, oh God, is Skimball the creepy uncle. And I've just thought that I've like, I'm the sweet carry the whole time. And so I really like looked into myself and looked at, but no, they're, because they're enjoying.

[33:41] Mike Abrams: Okay. Yeah, I can see that. I definitely can see that.

[33:44] Colin Cunliffe: I think deep down inside the performers are dreading that number and they hate that number. And I didn't realize that because it's up and it's fun. But it's kind of only up and fun for Skimball, the rest of them, they have to carry. I mean, those train pieces, some of them so awkward, so heavy, you're holding them where you have to spin it with one foot through the spokes.

[34:03] Mike Abrams: You know?

[34:04] Colin Cunliffe: So I think, I think you're loving the number. They hate the number, but Skimball loves it as, as, as the performers, not as the cats.

[34:13] Mike Abrams: I think the cat.

[34:14] Colin Cunliffe: Yeah. That makes sense. That definitely makes sense. Who pointed the light at me.

[34:19] Mike Abrams: That's what I realized.

[34:20] Colin Cunliffe: That's what I really want to know because I know it's not you.

[34:23] Mike Abrams: No.

[34:23] Colin Cunliffe: Who's the track that does the light?

[34:26] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[34:26] Colin Cunliffe: I think that was a bad design. I don't support that. Mike, I actually feel really bad about that because I want to know because I felt like they just angled it. Like it was like, I see this guy. It's really hard. I'm going to hit him.

[34:40] Mike Abrams: But it was, yeah, it was a lot and it didn't happen the second time.

[34:44] Colin Cunliffe: Okay. But it was, it was, it was an experience. Good. And it was coming right off of, I like was again, at that point, I'm starting to kind of grasp my own take of like, here's what's happening. And then I am ready. I'm like, oh, this is awesome. Look at this train. And then it's just like, boom, couldn't even see it. And I, you know, you can, you have to tell me, I don't remember what was next. Cause I think I was like taken aback by it. Like, I don't know what happens there.

[35:07] Colin Cunliffe: It's towards the end, but the train falls apart and it's like, oh no. But then onto the next, it's going to be okay.

[35:19] Mike Abrams: I'll skim ball and his train.

[35:21] Colin Cunliffe: See again, even then, like there's these little cracks of where, like, it's a little odd that skimbles train fell apart. That doesn't go with skimball.

[35:30] Mike Abrams: So I think, I think there's some, yeah, there's, there's some holes in my episode very clearly. And, you know, I'm, I'm aware that there are probably a lot more, I usually ask the super fans. My favorite thing is what did I get wrong? Like, where did I really miss? And so I love hearing these things of where, because it's the beauty of the show is that there's not a direct path. Anyone's like, I walked out and I thought that there are some consensuses and some stuff that like, it seems right, but there's a lot where you can just be like, no, I'm sorry. This is how I interpreted it. And there's only probably what three people there's like Andy Blankenbuehler, Andrew Webber, a couple other people that maybe like, was like, this is how I intended it. And no one else in the world can answer this question.

[36:16] Colin Cunliffe: And so I like the fact that I can kind of say, no, I got a creepy uncle vibe, but now that you're explaining it to me, I'm like, oh no, that's wholesome. That's not creepy uncle vibe.

[36:25] Mike Abrams: Right. Right. Well, I mean, it's, it's the genius of, of, I think Jillian Lynn as well, the choreographer, the original choreographer is, and unfortunately I never got the chance to work with her specifically, but you, you get these things obviously passed down to you. And every, at least the original choreography, every move is, has a dramatic intention behind it, which I like that.

[36:51] Colin Cunliffe: You know, I didn't grow up as a ballet dancer and all that. I kind of played catch up as, as a dancer, as a growing up, but I do click with narrative dancing or, or dramatic kind of storytelling with the moves and stuff.

[37:08] Mike Abrams: And I mean, things like titties to the wind and that's like, you face right.

[37:12] Colin Cunliffe: But hearing, you know, cause she was Jillian Lynn was also very sensual and, you know, had a bit of a mouth on her from what I understand. But that where it looks like, oh, turn to the right. If you think titties to the wind, it's the, it gives it a whole new air about it.

[37:29] Mike Abrams: So that whole piece, having all of that stuff to it, I just, I love that. There is, again, it's, it's all goes back to, these are things that as a performer and someone who's trained in this, you're going to recognize and appreciate.

[37:44] Colin Cunliffe: And as someone who's not, it's not that I don't appreciate her performance. It's just, it's just, I don't even, it just doesn't resonate. I don't even capture that. I just am seeing these other pieces.

[37:51] Mike Abrams: Well, I don't think it's necessarily, I don't think it needs to be known from a, to an audience standpoint. I mean, it's like, they don't need to know that that's titties to the wind. That's it's amongst many other movements, you know?

[38:05] Colin Cunliffe: So, you know, I think it's, we can have our secrets as performers. And I don't think you always need to know what we're thinking and what we're doing and why, or maybe at least what, why we're doing things.

[38:18] Mike Abrams: But again, you mix that in within this show that then is all poetry.

[38:23] Colin Cunliffe: And with all this choreography, it's like, of course, people are going to go out there and be like, what the hell was that?

[38:30] Mike Abrams: Which I, again, I love, I love that people get so, you're a perfect example where you're like, I don't even know. And like, I don't even know if you like it or if you don't like it, but yet you're doing this podcast on it and you're going in.

[38:43] Colin Cunliffe: So I don't, I don't know if you're a fan of the show or not.

[38:46] Mike Abrams: And it's, it's almost not even important or it, because it's, it, it's this fascination.

[38:55] Mike Abrams: That brought you to then do this podcast on a show that you may or may not even like. Like, what an odd show to bring that and stir that up in people. It is the most... Usually when I walk out of... And this is a me thing. I'm very aware of this. I don't usually walk out and say, I didn't like something or I hated it. There's things I'm just like, this wasn't really my cup of tea. But I don't usually be like, I want my two hours back. And so it's very rare. I've never walked out of a movie. I very rarely will turn something off. I'll usually just watch it in completion. I'll just be like, eh. I'm fairly easily entertained. This is one of the few shows where everyone seems to have an opinion on it.

And it's kind of wild that there's huge hate towards it or huge love towards it. And I don't fall on either of those. I fall in a fascination of the story and one very specific angle of it. Which I think is also again, cool that I can have this passion, this one thing. And there's 40 years of history for us to explore it. Why there's enough there for us to have these conversations.

[40:05] Colin Cunliffe: But there are people who are adamant that it's Team Gus. There are people who are adamant that it's perfect as is. There should be no wrong that... No, people are very upset if you and Tugger really do have the relationship or if there's some like, those cats aren't supposed to be friends. And it's like, well, they're friends off stage. So they're definitely going to have some friendship on stage, even though those cats maybe shouldn't be. And that to me is just a fascinating piece. I don't really... And I wouldn't do this, but I would always love to know if you and I went to see a different show, just any random show, I'd probably walk out and just be like, oh, that was fun. And you probably would be like, oh, I love that certain number or that song.

You would appreciate pieces to it more than I would. I would mostly just be like, that looked really difficult to do if it was a number or like, that was impressive. Or I can't hit that note. That's like, I can't hit any note, but most people can't hit that note. But there's been plenty of shows where I'll hear people who are very knowledgeable and they'll be like, oh, that was a disaster. I'm like, you know, I mean, my lottery ticket was fine. I enjoyed myself.

[41:11] Mike Abrams: And I think that's the beauty of audiences is that it's not one or the other. I had a director one time tell us, he's like, you'll be doing a show and someone in the front row will be having the time of their life and their lives changed by your performance. And the person sitting right next to them will want to kill themselves at the same time because they hate the show so much. I'm paraphrasing. It was actually much more eloquent. But that same idea where it's like, and both audience members to me are important. It's wild. And I think it's different when it's live too. And I've said this a lot because I'm much more of a sports fan. And so I will recognize as a hockey player, as someone who grew up playing most sports and has played a lot of hockey, that there are things I'm like, oh, that player's doing that.

It's completely not important to what you would think as a non-fan. But I know that if that player doesn't do that, something else doesn't happen. And this whole thing that falls apart, that's what I don't have in the theater world. I don't look at any of those things.

[42:15] Colin Cunliffe: Do you look for those moments? Like you're searching those out or you're watching it from kind of like a beginning to finish. And then those things may come up and get your attention. Or are you looking at it from a like, I want to see this play. I want to see this player.

[42:31] Mike Abrams: I usually go in like a movie in the sense of like, I'm going there to be entertained with the story. Sports games and then sports games. Oh, so I mean, I started playing hockey when I was three years old. I've still played to this day. And no, I watched that. But there are things that like as a player, and I think if you've played at a high level in any of these things, there are things where you appreciate and you understand and you watch and you just see it because you've coached. I mean, I've coached and done a lot with it. But there's a few things where it'll happen in a game and it's happened so fast that an average person who doesn't watch or doesn't play wouldn't pick up on that. But it's so important to either the way that they're playing the game or the way that this particular movement's happening.

And there's some beauty into it. And so I recognize that that is the same thing that I'm witnessing in the theater world. But I don't know enough about it because I haven't had like coaching or someone being like, no, you've got to be over there or you've got to be doing this or you have to do this particular motion for that to make sense. Because I'm just watching it as a person just being like, what's the story? Tell me the story. I might pick up a thing or two. I've started to pick up more on sets. I've really liked seeing, oh, that's kind of cool how that's coming in and that's going out and that's coming up. But there's a lot of times with the other cats, to your point, with the twins, I never would have noticed that piece that seems like they're the first ones to recognize, the first ones to notice, the first ones to turn.

And that's thought through. That's definitely thought about. But as an audience member, it's just like, I was against, I was so confused at the show the first time I saw it that I didn't pick up any of it. But even now, if I watch the movie again, I don't think I would have pieced that together. I think there are still, there are even performers that wouldn't even piece that together. You know, Cats is unique like that. I think where it is hard to get those specifics and it's definitely something that's been passed down. But then I would be shocked sometimes with these super fans that they would know some of these relationships. And I'm like, how did you know that? There's nothing in the script that says that.

This connection happens in the back. So it's fascinating. But also to your point about how one maybe watches a show, I think it can sometimes be a detriment as an actor or a dancer or whatever. I think we can sometimes fall victim to dissecting it too much. I've definitely had moments where I'm like, yo, boy, stop trying to look at this so technically. Step back. Have a little bit of innocence. Realize where you are, what's happening. You're stepping into a theater. You're going to escape. Chill out.

[45:12] Colin Cunliffe: You know, and I think a lot of performers do that. They end up being miserable and they almost lose the love of theater because they're watching it so technically and they're looking for something that is wrong or that it's like, oh, they sing it like this versus like, give it a chance. It is a little bit of, it is a part of your job, you know, like, and so you do take it from a different angle because you're, you're watching that of, you know, this is, you know, the ins and outs of the industry that most of us don't. So, okay. Before we go to my rapid fire, and of course my final question, is there anything else that you think I missed? Because I think it's, I'm very excited to hear some of the things you've changed my mind on in a good way.

[46:00] Mike Abrams: Oh, what was your, you had an issue with the writing. There's something that you didn't like in the, in the Skimble number that they changed.

[46:10] Colin Cunliffe: Oh, because he changed, Angelo Dwebber changed a lyric from the book.

[46:15] Mike Abrams: Yeah. So I, I, it's a, it was a weird choice. It was like every other one, when they changed the poems to the songs, had like very deliberate, like I had to cut out a couple of lines. Like it was very clear, or I maybe changed, this was just like a couple words changed, but had no real change in the lyric or the storytelling or anything else. And it wasn't like, the only thing is maybe when I thought about it more, because I reread through everything and kind of listened back to the episode, that it was, maybe it was have to do with like how they actual scored the number differently, but it seemed like it wasn't so significant that I was like, you couldn't fit those words into the score. Like you couldn't make that work. Like it was just, there's no need to do that. And they still did it.

[47:01] Colin Cunliffe: I appreciate that observation.

[47:09] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I love that you picked that up.

[47:15] Colin Cunliffe: Oh, I do. I didn't want, there was something else, Peter. I'm so fascinated by your fascination with Peter. It's just, it's strange to me. I'm going to help you out with something. So in the naming of cats, which you've heard, it's one of the hardest things to memorize. There are three different names.

[47:30] Mike Abrams: Three names.

[47:31] Colin Cunliffe: Yeah. Okay. So has someone talked to you about this?

[47:37] Mike Abrams: Yes, but I still, so someone tried to explain it to me in the sense. So I'll let you keep going. Cause I think I want to hear your version of it.

[47:42] Colin Cunliffe: There's the three names. Right. There's like the common name and that can be like, you know, Peter, and maybe there's been a few different cats named Peter. And then there's the name that no other cat has. So that's like a Mistoffelees or a Mumpus trap. Then there's the name that you just don't even, it's, it's all, it's like, it's just, it's like, we can't even understand it as humans.

[48:04] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I, so someone has tried to explain this to me.

[48:10] Colin Cunliffe: Where are the other Peters? Like where are the other common names? Like those characters?

[48:16] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Like everybody else, the part I pulled out is that there's, I understand now that there's, and I didn't when I first got obsessed with this, but I understand now that there are the three names and that this is the common one, but there are not other common names. And for some reason, Peter still gets to go on stage and dance in the opening number. So does Bill Bailey.

[48:38] Colin Cunliffe: So, okay. So Bill Bailey, I guess one other one, but it's rare. It's weird. I'm not going to lie. And it's not, it's not in any other productions, really. Peter's not, he doesn't have, again, that Wikipedia page. I did, I finally did a Peter episode just to make it up myself. And there that the, the Wikipedia page has like 4,000 pages worth of stuff and they don't have a Peter page. There's not one. But there are some pictures and I know it's part of the Gus Bus track and I've got my made up stories for where they are, but I mean, it's, it's very clear that they just needed another body for the opening number. And that name is in the poem and there it is. But I just think it's like, there's, there's not enough common names for me. And it was like, why was this one picked and really stuck with?

[49:26] Colin Cunliffe: Yeah, I get it. But I wrote my own story for Peter. I'm going to have to listen to that one. There's no way I'm, I'm right. I'm very, very aware of this. I don't think anybody's ever thought to that level of Peter, but I, I gave him a backstory. I gave my opinion on it, but maybe that's what Peter needs. And then in future production production, someone is going to have listened to that and Peter's going to get a feature.

[49:49] Mike Abrams: I want to know more. And I've, and about, and this isn't my, in my Peter episode, but there's a, I forget where in Asia there isn't a Gilbert and Gilbert has a page, but Peter doesn't. And it's only in like one or two productions. And I want to know more about Gilbert, but I don't have, I don't have the capacity to try to figure it took me a long time to figure out Peter.

[50:20] Colin Cunliffe: Yeah. I think stick with Peter. That's a lot. So let's go into rapid fire.

[50:25] Mike Abrams: Yes. You've played a lot of the cats, but I usually want to say, who would you want to play? So if you were, I'm going to take Tugger out of it. Cause I think we've established very clearly that that's what you, you want to play, uh, in, in your next, uh, Jellicle life. But, but what would be like, what's another cat, like, what's another track you didn't either didn't get the chance to do, or only did as a swing a couple of times that you would want to do.

[50:50] Colin Cunliffe: It's funny because tumble Brutus, I was thrown on in like an emergency, emergency, emergency situation. Um, I loved, I w I didn't really tumble. I did. I, it was horrible. I did a somersault like a final bow. And I was like, this is what I got. So, um, the cast loved that one. Um, but I really liked playing him oddly enough. He's a little, he's a shit like, you know, and he's got really great makeup. Um, his colors were my colors. So that was nice.

[51:27] Colin Cunliffe: Tumble Brutus, I guess if I could tumble, it would be okay. I like, I like this question because I like what a lot of people have answered what they like can't do. It's like either they're not physically that character or something, or, or don't have that skill. Um, so I love that answer. I think that's fun. And again, another cat I know very little about.

[51:55] Colin Cunliffe: It's a good song.

[51:58] Mike Abrams: Who's your favorite and least favorite cat? Not character, cat.

[52:02] Colin Cunliffe: Oddly enough, I hate Tumble Brutus as a cat. He's just a little shit. And my favorite, you know, I like Elektra. She's weird. I don't know if she'd be my favorite, but I like her. I really like Gus.

[52:21] Mike Abrams: I mean, Gus is great.

[52:23] Colin Cunliffe: Yeah.

[52:24] Mike Abrams: Favorite song?

[52:27] Colin Cunliffe: Old Deuteronomy. When Old Deuteronomy enters.

[52:29] Mike Abrams: Old Deuteronomy. Okay. I like that.

[52:31] Colin Cunliffe: I just think it's some of the most beautiful music. I have Kristen Blodgett's cutoffs ingrained in my head. And Monk and Tugger sing this really, these beautiful, beautiful lines. And I think that's the other thing that people don't realize is that cats is a hard fucking show to sing. You know, it is intense. That score is intense. And you were singing the whole time. You're screaming your face off. There's booth singers. You know, everyone is singing on stage and they're screaming their faces off.

[53:00] Mike Abrams: Yeah, the booth singers thing was fascinating to me. Like that it's so difficult. And that was the, when I left the first time I walked out and I said, that was an impressive feat, like story, whatever, everything else that kind of went through my mind. And that was just an impressive thing to watch.

[53:20] Colin Cunliffe: I don't know if you'll find this interesting or entertaining, but I, so after, so after I left the show with Skimble, they brought me back to cover Rum Tum Tugger, Monk and Strap, and Skimble. And then I would sing in the booth. Oh wait, did I cut out?

[53:39] Mike Abrams: Nope.

[53:40] Colin Cunliffe: Okay. So I came back to cover Monk and Strap, Skimble and Tugger, and then sing in the booth. And there was a show where I was going into work and I had, I had a kitten that we had adopted at home right kind of at the beginning of when I joined the company. Really great cat Tito. And I get a call from my partner that he had choked on a chicken bone and rushing him to the hospital. So as the beginning notes of the show start, I see that they're taking my cat into the hospital and they need me to come because they don't know if he's going to make it. So I had to through a glass pane, mimic my cat is choking on a chicken bone. I have to leave and I have to get the, the swing down here to sing, you know, and Kristen Blah just conducting, oh, go, go, go, you know, and I had to run out and, and Tito didn't make it.

[54:48] Mike Abrams: Oh no.

[54:50] Colin Cunliffe: Doing cats. It was traumatic. It was horrible. And I, I probably shouldn't say this, but I wanted to spread his ashes on the tire, but I didn't get him cremated in time before we closed. I didn't get his, get his ass. So I have this desire to still find a company of cats that I can spread. I did. I was, I was expecting this like, oh, and you know, and he survived and this happened. It's not dark. It was darker than the show. Oh my God. The next day at work was the most horrible thing. Singing that end song about sending your cat or about your cats ascending to heaven for cat heaven. It was just day after you rushed her out.

[55:34] Mike Abrams: That's gotta be rough. Yeah. That's gotta be really rough.

[55:39] Colin Cunliffe: That's what I'm telling. I tell this, this show runs very deep. That's, that's a layer that I did not expect. I'm telling you, that's a whole nother layer. I did not realize that there's possibly cast members sprinting out to take care of their own actual cat. Well, you know, I tried to, I mean, that's a crazy story. I'd like to say, you know, if he was sick or whatever, I wouldn't have left, but he was, he was dying and croaking and they needed to pull the plug on him. Wow. Yeah. But that was a moment where I was like, oh my God. Oh shit. Like people are coming here who are maybe like, you know, they're mourning over their, their dead animals, their dead cats and stuff like that. And with this whole thing with like ascension up, I'm like, this maybe was a, maybe that's a nice moment for these people, you know, to kind of a little cathartic cat.

I, I hope that somebody then got the pun, I got the pun and it was perfect. I, I hope that somebody went to see the show to mourn their cat and walked out feeling better than they walked in. I don't, I mean, I don't want to say that there's, I don't, it seems like a low probability. There's a lot of people with cats. It's been for 40 years. It's right. Yeah. It's had to have happened at some point. Yes. So I will say if somebody is listening and they went to see the show and it solved your, it was the last stage of your grief, I would love to talk to you and hear your story.

[57:04] Mike Abrams: All right, let's ask, I'm going to ask my final question, which is, you've clearly heard my arguments against Isabella. I think there's, I've heard some compelling arguments for her and I, I, I'm not ready to change the name of my podcast and change the whole show, but I definitely think that there's more merit there than I've give credit. So do you want to argue for her or do you think it should be somebody else?

[57:31] Colin Cunliffe: I mean, it's, you know, this has been really hard for me, Mike. I've been going through who I think should have gotten picked if it wasn't for Isabella and immediately went on the Gus, jumped on the Gus train and then her, who I just have to say, Christopher Gurr was so amazing in the show. I just, he was such a pleasure to work to watch every night where that number can, if it's the person's not great, can be hell you're on stage for a long time. So the side note, but then I heard his whole thing with like him and old dude and I was like, oh, that's fascinating. Okay. I get that. And it almost bothered me because it was, it was such a compelling argument against it and everyone else argues for him.

And I was just like, I, when I heard it, I was like, ah, why'd you got to run it? Like that was at least my other argument and he just ruined it. Well, that's why, that's why I hate working with Christopher Gurr because he's too good of an actor ruins all that stuff by justifying things. But I, so it's been really, I've been running through my brain. Okay. Who is it? Okay. Who would it be? Okay. I think more so than Grizabella is Victoria, the white cat. She's the one that initiates the gesture of forgiveness or whatever you want to call it. But she goes and she's the first cat that touches. Now, granted old dude, I think does maybe a little bit of a cue, but it's like, you know, we've, we've witnessed Victoria throughout the show, go through these changes and, and, and all this stuff, which, you know, I was told once that there's a Victoria, the dance solo in the beginning, you know, it was all about her becoming a woman, you know, and her going through, which I just think is beautiful and lovely.

So I think, I don't know if I'm a hundred percent with that, but because Christopher, Christopher Gurr ruined all of that, I might say Victoria is a little bit more deserving than Grizabella. I get Grizabella's trials and tribulations, but really she came back and did what just came back. I don't think she lived a rough life. And the, the, the point is, is that at least this Mamie's argument of, or not Mamie, I don't think she made this argument, but everyone makes the argument for her. Is that her belting out memory is deserving of winning, but I've not heard of Victoria arguments. I kind of like it. She says, she screams, touch me. She screams it screams. Victoria is the one that touches her. She does. Yeah. Of course Grizabella is just like somebody touch me like really loud. Why does that then grant someone the prize of the heavy side layer?

[1:00:12] Mike Abrams: I like it. I've not heard of Victoria argument, so I'm, I'm just happy to have somebody else agree. It's not Grizabella. I don't think it's Grizabella. I don't, again, I don't know if I'm a hundred percent in agreement that it's Victoria, but I think that that might be the one that's hedging a little bit ahead. I think what I've really learned is there needs to be a cats too.

[1:00:32] Colin Cunliffe: Yes. But the return to the return, like the second, the second act, you know, now that Grizabella is done and out, that was up next. That's what I want to see. I'm not qualified to write it or perform it.

[1:00:44] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I mean, it's, it's season two. If the, if I was writing it would be the way it'd be not, not the sequel. So, um, before we wrap up, I want to know what are you, I don't want to talk about cats forever. No one will do this with me, Mike. I do find it fascinating that a lot of your cast is just like, yes, I would love to. Cause no one wants to ever talk about this ever again.

[1:01:05] Colin Cunliffe: No, no, this is not normal. We're not able to have these conversations. I'm glad I'm filling a void that I don't think a lot of people realize needed to be filled. Um, but I want to hear what, what are you working on these days?

[1:01:27] Colin Cunliffe: Um, yeah. Um, so, uh, Broadway shut down. Um, we got out of there because our landlords wouldn't give us a break on our rent and we can't really get into, we're not getting any help elsewhere. So we gave up our keys to the apartment and we moved, uh, to this great place about two hours outside of the city. I'm paying so much less than I do in the city, but while it shut down, um, came up here and a good friend lives nearby and we started a production company called the fat. Yeah. We, uh, in August we produced a, uh, very safe, distant and masked a dance festival at the Forestburg playhouse, which was awesome. Uh, we sold that out, which was really cool and just really special to be able to get back on stage and bring up some local choreographers from the city and get to collaborate.

Um, and then in October we produced a haunted hotel, which was super cool with like live performance. And then, you know, um, a lot of dance kind of elements within that than the storytelling. So we kind of are watering that.

[1:02:35] Mike Abrams: So how can people find out more about it?

[1:02:41] Colin Cunliffe: Um, or about other things you're producing? Just go, I guess. Um, oh, I'm so bad with that. The fat, just keep an eye out for, um, go to, it's not, we have an Instagram account. By January 1st, 2021, we'll have a website. So go to the fat.com in one, the fed.com. This will, it should release in, in next year. So go to the fed.com and learn more.

[1:03:08] Mike Abrams: Um, and how can we find you on social media? I guess maybe this is a dangerous question now.

[1:03:12] Colin Cunliffe: Oh, you're going to it's I'm this asshole. So it's Colin C O L I N underscore Hollis H O L L I S underscore Shannon S H A N N O N Colin Hollis Shannon.

[1:03:31] Mike Abrams: Okay. And the Instagram is that all of them?

[1:03:35] Colin Cunliffe: I'm only on Instagram.

[1:03:38] Mike Abrams: Just joined a few years ago.

[1:03:39] Colin Cunliffe: I'm new. Sounds like you're active.

[1:03:44] Mike Abrams: Um, well we'll, we'll send people to the fat.com in 2021.

[1:03:49] Colin Cunliffe: Yeah. Why don't you visit me on that Instagram too?

[1:03:51] Mike Abrams: On Instagram.

[1:03:54] Colin Cunliffe: Amazing. Um, well thank you for being a amazing guest. Uh, thank you for changing my mind on skimble, not skim. I definitely, there's, there's some things, there's no way we're going in and editing the episode, so it's going to live out there that way. But now people can listen to this one and, and, and no, it's not the creepy uncle vibe. It's the fun uncle, not skim, skimble, plenty of other things that are there. And I love the Victoria argument just because I don't think I've, I've had enough people try to make it. And so I just love any, anytime it's not Grizabella. It's like, it's a good episode for me.

[1:04:37] Mike Abrams: Well, thank you for listening to this episode with Colin Cunliffe on the wrong cat died. The podcast breakdown of the catastrophe to follow along and subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or anywhere else you listen to podcasts, follow us on Twitter and Instagram at the wrong cat died or check out our website, the wrong cat died.com.