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[0:19] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of Cats at Sashafi. I'm your host Mike Abrams, and it is July of 2022, and I was recently at BroadwayCon here in New York City. The Broadway Podcast Network put on some incredible programming, and I was very honored to be one of the shows that recorded live at the event. I had some amazing guests join me, and we had a CATS debate in front of a live audience. So what you're going to hear is live from BroadwayCon 2022. I hope you enjoy this episode.

[0:46] Mike Abrams: Alright, thanks everybody for being here. Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of Cats at Sashafi. I am Mike Abrams. I host this wonderful podcast where we talk about why Grizabella is the wrong jellicle choice. So today we have some wonderful guests. I'm going to have them introduce themselves. So I'd love to hear who you are, your theater connection, and then I'd love to hear the first time that you saw Cats.

[1:10] Zach Bravo: I guess I'll go first. So, hey everyone. My name is Zach Bravo. I'm an actor. I recently just finished the 2021-2022 national tour of Cats as Rum Tum Tugger, and I'm really honored to be a part of this podcast today.

[1:27] Mike Abrams: Awesome. When was the first time you saw Cats?

[1:28] Zach Bravo: Oh, the first time I saw it, I was like about 10 or 11, and that was really weird for me to watch at 10 or 11.

[1:37] Zach Raffio: Hey, I'm Zach Raffio. I'm the editor-in-chief of The Broadway Beat, which is a theater satire. The first time I saw Cats, I was 14. It was a youth production in my hometown, and one of my best friends, Georgie Simon, was Grizabella, and at intermission, I asked an adult at the table next to us, what is this about? And I like cats a lot.

[2:04] Jesse McAnally: Well, I'm Jesse McAnally.

[2:05] Andrew DeWolf: And Andrew, we might as well go together.

[2:07] Jesse McAnally: Oh yeah, I'm Andrew. We're both from Musicals With Cheese.

[2:10] Andrew DeWolf: Yes, and I think we watched Cats for the first time together for content, where we watched the whole three-hour pro shot together. But you also saw the movie and the national tour.

[2:22] Jesse McAnally: I watched the movie on Christmas Eve when that opened, and then I went to see the national tour when it came to Schenectady.

[2:28] Andrew DeWolf: A Christmas gift for you, for sure.

[2:31] Jesse McAnally: Oh wait, I might have seen you.

[2:33] Andrew DeWolf: This past time?

[2:34] Jesse McAnally: I believe so.

[2:35] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, that's where I finished.

[2:38] Jesse McAnally: Oh, that's awesome.

[2:39] Andrew DeWolf: Was that the, oh man, what is that?

[2:41] Jesse McAnally: That was around May.

[2:42] Andrew DeWolf: Procter's?

[2:43] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, Procter's.

[2:44] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, well, I might have waved at you or shaken my ass.

[2:46] Jesse McAnally: I'm sure you did.

[2:47] Andrew DeWolf: I was on the balcony, so.

[2:48] Jesse McAnally: Oh, I definitely was shaking at you.

[2:51] Andrew DeWolf: Only you.

[2:52] Jesse McAnally: It was for you.

[2:54] Andrew DeWolf: It was me. It was for me.

[2:57] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, that's the way Tiger works. It's individualized for you.

[2:59] Mike Abrams: Alright, so here's how we're going to do this since we're live. We have, I have a handful of the cats, so not all of them. I made it a little easier. I didn't put Peter or Baby Grizz or any of the challenging ones. So I'm going to put them in my hat here, and we're going to draw, and then you are going to defend this particular choice for the Heaviside Layer, and I also love the idea of having you also argue against each other, so whoever is defending, if you disagree, chime in and tell them why they're wrong.

[3:30] Zach Raffio: That's what I do all the time.

[3:31] Mike Abrams: So we're going to pull a cat out of the hat, and each person is going to get who you have. And after you do it, show who you get.

[3:41] Zach Bravo: Oh, boy.

[3:42] Mike Abrams: We're audio-based. We need to get this.

[3:44] Zach Raffio: This is an easy one.

[3:45] Mike Abrams: Oh, there you go.

[3:46] Zach Raffio: Can you hear me?

[3:48] Mike Abrams: Alright.

[3:49] Zach Raffio: The ASMR.

[3:51] Mike Abrams: Okay. Do I get to keep the hat?

[3:53] Zach Bravo: No, pass it back because I'm going to take the other two.

[3:55] Mike Abrams: Okay, that's fair. I will say, if you're extremely unhappy, there are two more, and we can do some trades here.

[4:04] Zach Raffio: Oh.

[4:06] Zach Bravo: Oh, no.

[4:08] Zach Raffio: I feel like you've got to be prepared for that one.

[4:10] Zach Bravo: I kind of knew this was happening.

[4:12] Zach Raffio: Yeah, yeah. This was not planned.

[4:14] Zach Bravo: Rigged.

[4:15] Mike Abrams: Good timing there. Well, here, do you feel good about that?

[4:18] Zach Raffio: Oh, yeah, I'm good.

[4:19] Mike Abrams: You ready to go?

[4:20] Zach Raffio: This is good.

[4:21] Mike Abrams: Alright. Oh, I got two of the better choices here. Alright, who wants to go first? Is anybody passionate about their drawing?

[4:29] Zach Raffio: I'll sort of start because I got the one I wanted.

[4:31] Zach Bravo: Oh.

[4:32] Zach Raffio: Which is Jenny Annie Dots. Her kind of schtick and why I think that she's separate from the others is that all day long she doesn't do anything. She's very, very lazy. She sleeps. And then at night she's like, I've got to catch up, and I've got to make up for the whole day. She's very, very active. And I find a sort of kinship with that, and I think that that sort of productivity speaks to everyone, and I think that that makes her the people's cat. So in many ways the people's cat should be the one to die or come back to life.

[5:06] Zach Bravo: Or the Jellicle's cat.

[5:08] Zach Raffio: The Jellicle's cat, yeah. I feel weird being like, I like this cat and that's why she should die. But you all know what I mean. So Jenny Annie Dots, she's you, she's me, and she's coming back to life, baby.

[5:21] Mike Abrams: Awesome. Okay, okay. Do we have any counterpoints here?

[5:25] Zach Bravo: Who will train the mice?

[5:30] Zach Raffio: Yeah, I was going to ask that.

[5:31] Zach Bravo: I'll do it.

[5:33] Zach Raffio: You're going to do it?

[5:35] Zach Bravo: How did you just become blessed as a Jellicle like immediately here?

[5:39] Zach Raffio: What's your third name that you think about?

[5:41] Zach Bravo: Oh, man. I didn't think this joke through.

[5:47] Zach Raffio: I didn't think there would be so much follow-up.

[5:50] Zach Bravo: We're a debate podcast.

[5:54] Zach Raffio: Yeah, I'll take care of the mice. Don't worry about it. I know a guy.

[5:58] Zach Bravo: Fair enough. Alright, so 50% of the time you're doing nothing, and then the other 50% you're so good that you're the choice.

[6:04] Zach Raffio: Yeah, I think so. And I think I personally benefit from spacing that out more, but it's where I'm at right now. I respect Jenny for that.

[6:11] Mike Abrams: Love it. Alright, who wants to go next?

[6:14] Zach Bravo: You seem to be pretty confident in yours.

[6:16] Zach Raffio: I'll go. I think this is an easy one. Old Deuteronomy. And, I mean, it's in his name. He's old. It's time to hang up the coat, you know? He gets kidnapped. I mean, he's been through a lot. No, he gets skinned. He gets skinned alive and gets it back somehow.

[6:33] Zach Raffio: Yeah. I think it's time to hang it up. He's going to nominate himself for the choice and hand it off to someone else to make the choice next year, you know?

[6:43] Zach Bravo: Old Deuteronomy is too selfish to do that, and here's why. He would not do that by any means. He loves his job too much. If anything, he's not in the pile, but Gus definitely would be a good choice.

[6:57] Zach Raffio: I'm not defending him just yet, but for Gus, I would be like, he would be a good choice. Old Deuteronomy is like, see, but he's traumatized.

[7:05] Zach Bravo: From what?

[7:06] Zach Raffio: From getting skinned once.

[7:09] Zach Bravo: Have you been skinned more than once?

[7:11] Zach Raffio: Yeah.

[7:12] Zach Bravo: Give it a week.

[7:13] Zach Raffio: I feel like this happens multiple times because, I mean, Macavity has a reputation.

[7:18] Zach Bravo: Yeah.

[7:19] Zach Raffio: Every human long. Who's to say Macavity didn't have that the last time that Old Deuteronomy was before he – I'm sure Old Deuteronomy has gone through the Heaviside Layer, but as the same guy the entire time. Who's to say Macavity hasn't had that as a trophy?

[7:37] Zach Bravo: Maybe. It's also irresponsible to say that Deuteronomy's trauma is any more important than any of these other cats.

[7:44] Zach Raffio: I mean, that's true. But let's also think about this, right? The whole point here is that he made the wrong choice. So if he makes the wrong choice, maybe it's time to hang it up.

[7:52] Zach Bravo: When do you think Monkistrap actually decides it's his time? Because that's who's next in line, right?

[7:58] Zach Raffio: Oh, I think it would be a debate between Rum Tum Tugger and Monkistrap. I think Rum Tum Tugger is like the underdog that might –

[8:04] Zach Bravo: We're not there yet.

[8:10] Zach Raffio: We're not there yet. I like how your answer was just, eh, that's none of my business.

[8:18] Zach Bravo: So am I going to defend my choice?

[8:19] Zach Raffio: Yeah, go for it.

[8:20] Zach Bravo: I think Mr. Mistoffelees should have been the choice because he saves Old Deuteronomy. I feel like at that point there should be a give and take there. Like, you stopped me from being skinned through the power of cat magic. You are the Jellicle choice. Even the movie lent into that a lot more. Or I'm like, this is obviously the Jellicle choice, and then Jennifer Hudson's going to come in and just steal it for no reason.

[8:44] Zach Raffio: As far as a narrative makes sense, if Mistoffelees got chosen, it would make narrative sense. So I do love the, like, it's the quid pro quo version here. When I saw the show the first time, I thought Skimbleshanks was bribing Old Deuteronomy when he hands him the ticket. So that was my argument. He's clearly trying to get his way in. And since I'm holding Skimbleshanks, that's my argument.

[9:05] Zach Bravo: Basically both have the same argument, where he uses trains and he uses dark magic.

[9:13] Zach Raffio: Dark magic's kind of got you there.

[9:16] Zach Bravo: He unskinned him.

[9:18] Zach Raffio: He unskinned him, he saved him. Yeah, from Macavity, who just is kind of not a problem anymore now.

[9:24] Zach Bravo: So as Old Deuteronomy, how do you feel about that?

[9:28] Zach Raffio: I mean, yeah, I think that would make sense. The other thing that would make sense, though, would be Old Deuteronomy gives it up and then hands it off to Mr. Mistoffelees.

[9:36] Zach Bravo: You know, I see that argument.

[9:38] Zach Raffio: Or Tugger.

[9:40] Zach Bravo: Or Tugger.

[9:41] Zach Raffio: Or Tugger, or Monkistrap, who's supposed to be next, right?

[9:43] Zach Bravo: I didn't put Monkistrap in the pile.

[9:45] Zach Raffio: Well, I want to hear the defense for Tugger right now.

[9:50] Zach Bravo: Well, for Tugger, well, I mean, it was his idea to bring out Mistoffelees to begin with. Of course, like, that is that arc, that moment where Tugger is like, okay, I actually want to help the tribe. Like, I'm going to stop shaming for a second and just be like, let's be serious.

[10:06] Zach Raffio: I think I know a way for us to get...

[10:08] Zach Bravo: Tugger's just trying to get rid of his ex and get him to be the chosen choice.

[10:12] Zach Raffio: Tugger would never get rid of Mistoffelees like that.

[10:17] Zach Bravo: Never!

[10:19] Zach Raffio: We'll not get into that.

[10:21] Zach Bravo: We could.

[10:23] Zach Raffio: We could. They seem interesting.

[10:25] Zach Bravo: Alright, Tugoffelees 101.

[10:29] Zach Raffio: No, he just wouldn't... No, he wouldn't do that to Mistoffelees like that.

[10:34] Zach Bravo: See, I believe that they're exes and they're destined to get back together, and that was it.

[10:39] Zach Raffio: That sounds like a really toxic relationship in my book.

[10:42] Zach Bravo: I mean, it is Tugger, though.

[10:44] Zach Raffio: Yeah, he's not...

[10:45] Zach Bravo: Stay toxic, my friends.

[10:48] Zach Raffio: No, no, no. Well, I'm really close to how their dynamics work, and I just don't see that.

[10:58] Zach Bravo: But, yeah, no. I think Tugger would definitely... I think because of how he reacts to how the rest of the Jellicles are when Old Deuteronomy leaves, that gives him an idea that something changes within him when it's like, okay, now I can't be the lone wolf. I got to be a part of the tribe now. And I think that should be rewarded in a way.

[11:28] Zach Raffio: I think so. So you cause chaos for two hours and 20 minutes worth of show.

[11:34] Zach Bravo: Well, okay. But you've got this moment where you have your ah-ha is there. It's like Tony Stark in any movie. I'm going to ruin everything, then save it for the last minute and be the hero.

[11:43] Zach Raffio: You know who's not causing any chaos? Who's mostly just napping? She's pretty much staying out of it until nighttime, and then you go to sleep and she takes care of your business. And I honor you.

[11:54] Zach Bravo: Awesome. That's important.

[11:56] Zach Raffio: That's fair. Alright. What do you all as this panel think about Gus? Because nobody got to take the most common answer for the Jellicle choice that's not Grizabella.

[12:04] Zach Bravo: Oh, Gus was in there.

[12:05] Zach Raffio: Gus is in here, yeah.

[12:06] Zach Bravo: Oh. The thing about Gus is I'm stealing an argument Andrew made earlier. Yeah, he's old. He's got palsy. But he gets the strength to, like, come on and be what he used to be for a brief moment, and that's great. We shouldn't take that away from him yet.

[12:41] Mike Abrams: But he's gonna do great, and he's gonna perform while he's at it.

[12:45] Mike Abrams: All right. We're gonna keep going here, but I want to hear from all of you. If you are Old Deuteronomy, put your Old Deuteronomy hat on. What is your criteria? Literally, put your Old Deuteronomy hat on. What is your criteria to make, let's not say this year's choice. I want to hear next year's choice. So how are you choosing next year? For, let's say, Grizabella's not out of the picture. How are you picking next year? Not who are you picking, how are you picking? What's your criteria? I think the clock starts now.

[13:17] Zach Bravo: Yeah. Like, I'm watching everything you all do from here to next year's choice, and really just gathering my data. I'm not basing it on anything they've done in the past. It's really just from today through then.

[13:30] Mike Abrams: That's good. I do have a sincere cats question that maybe folks that know it a little better than I do. For the Jellicle Ball, is it like a special occasion where they don't see each other very often, or do they just hang out a bunch throughout the rest of the year? And the Jellicle Ball's just a nice time.

[13:44] Jesse McAnally: The Jellicle Ball's an orgy, so I do think that they hang out throughout the year.

[13:52] Mike Abrams: All right. Or that makes that whole premise a lot stranger.

[13:55] Zach Raffio: Well, I mean, I think some of them don't, though. He's on the train the whole time. I feel like they don't see him.

[14:02] Mike Abrams: Zach, you looked ready to jump in there with a different opinion on this.

[14:04] Zach Bravo: No, no, no. I don't have a different opinion. Like, you're very correct. It is an orgy.

[14:10] Zach Bravo: It is to an extent. I try not to think about it that way. But, you know, I see Plato lifting up Victoria, and we're all crawling up to the circle. I'm like, yeah, this is an orgy.

[14:21] Zach Bravo: But it's a fun one. I'm going to move on. Better than any orgy I've been to.

[14:30] Zach Bravo: But, no, I don't know. Like, well, as far as criteria, I would actually judge their actions from the past instead of, like, the time is now. Although I do like your argument there. I would definitely take it like, oh, like, okay, let's see where you left off from then and see where you are now into the next year. And if they had changed in any sort of way, like Tugger, for instance, then I would probably be like, yeah, sure, you can go.

[15:02] Mike Abrams: All right. So it's basically how you have acted throughout the year.

[15:07] Zach Bravo: Well, that confused it, because then you're changing your criteria from the previous year where Grizabella sat at the start and sat at the end.

[15:14] Zach Bravo: Yeah, I'm flipping it.

[15:15] Mike Abrams: Well, I was a different old dude back then.

[15:18] Zach Bravo: Okay. So you change every year.

[15:20] Mike Abrams: So you changed.

[15:21] Zach Bravo: Yeah.

[15:22] Zach Bravo: Getting Skinned Alive changed you.

[15:23] Mike Abrams: Yeah, yeah. So maybe you get the choice. How did you make last year's choice, then?

[15:28] Zach Bravo: Well, I got interrupted. I got interrupted because, well, Griz just came in. If anything, like, at that moment, I would have chosen Skimbleshanks. I feel like he would have been a really good, perfect candidate to go to the Heaviside Lair.

[15:42] Zach Bravo: I mean, is Santa still judging me for last year when he makes this year's decision?

[15:47] Jesse McAnally: Yeah.

[15:48] Zach Bravo: Bye, guys.

[15:49] Mike Abrams: Oh, drop the mic right there. I don't know. I feel like you just got to do it beat by beat. So, yeah, just every year, different choice, different criteria. So next year, it very well could have been Macavity, because if we're starting over, he could just be a...

[16:04] Zach Raffio: Macavity's not a Jellicle cat, though.

[16:06] Zach Bravo: He's not a dear little cat?

[16:08] Zach Raffio: No, I don't think so.

[16:09] Zach Bravo: Huh. I don't know that.

[16:11] Jesse McAnally: Any thoughts? Is Macavity a Jellicle or not a Jellicle?

[16:15] Zach Raffio: Wow. He's not. He can't even... He doesn't qualify.

[16:19] Zach Bravo: That's why he's trying to steal his way in.

[16:20] Mike Abrams: The audience is torn here.

[16:21] Jesse McAnally: I know, yeah. So, wait. Are you saying, like, Macavity, like, renowned himself as a Jellicle cat?

[16:30] Zach Raffio: Because I think he's a Jellicle cat. I thought he was a Jellicle cat.

[16:32] Zach Bravo: Yeah. Who said he wasn't?

[16:34] Zach Raffio: He did. Just heard him.

[16:36] Zach Bravo: Why?

[16:37] Zach Raffio: It might be like, you know when you get, like, a service animal and you can, like, print out the thing if you need to?

[16:39] Zach Bravo: Yeah.

[16:40] Zach Raffio: It's like, I think if they went and checked the database, maybe they'd see that he's not. But for all intents and purposes, he's getting on the plane. Like, he's a cat, but he's not a Jellicle cat.

[16:49] Zach Bravo: Right. Like, he's not invited to the Jellicle ball. That's for sure.

[16:53] Zach Raffio: Oh, okay. I see.

[16:55] Zach Bravo: I... I... I... Yeah. Well, neither was Grizabella. Grizabella wasn't a Jellicle cat, either.

[17:00] Zach Raffio: Oh, was she?

[17:01] Zach Bravo: Yes.

[17:02] Zach Raffio: Okay. Yeah. Okay. I was like, oh. I thought she was, like, whining about not being able to let in or touch nobody.

[17:07] Zach Bravo: If she crashed the party and then got selected, there would be riots. I'd be furious.

[17:09] Zach Raffio: I would say the movie implies that is what is happening.

[17:13] Zach Bravo: Yeah, she just kind of walked in. I think she does crash the party.

[17:15] Zach Raffio: That's how I was interpreting it. Some people just don't seem to like her. It seems like she gets invited back in. She, like, crashes and then gets welcomed.

[17:24] Zach Bravo: She became a Jellicle again, and that's why they picked her. Is that the new life that begins again? Becoming a Jellicle and then dying?

[17:30] Jesse McAnally: Well, so there's some interesting pieces of that. That's where the potential baby Griz comes in. So there's a baby Griz, which dances the opening number.

[17:38] Zach Raffio: Yes.

[17:39] Jesse McAnally: Which I think is just a body to dance. But they're named baby Griz, so it could be foreshadowing her reincarnation.

[17:46] Jesse McAnally: My theory with that is that, like, when we see baby Griz in the beginning and then we see, like, Griz at her worst, is, like, the Jellicle cats don't – time is not relevant to how, like, we perceive time. So do you know what I mean?

[18:05] Zach Raffio: No.

[18:06] Jesse McAnally: They judge by the moonlight, right?

[18:08] Zach Raffio: Yeah, sure.

[18:09] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, sure. Why not? No, but, like, I don't know how to explain it. I explained it really well on our podcast one time about, like, how – like, yeah, no, so, like –

[18:21] Zach Raffio: It's not annual is basically what you're saying.

[18:23] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, yeah. It's not, like, you know – because the question is it says it's, like, an annual or –

[18:28] Zach Raffio: Once a year.

[18:29] Jesse McAnally: Once a year. But you're saying the year is different.

[18:32] Zach Raffio: It's a different calendar.

[18:33] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, we're not going on the current –

[18:36] Zach Raffio: Yeah, because, like, you know, Jellicle cats are very pretentious. Like, we know how great we are. And, you know, we see the audience, and the audience is, like – they're in our space, and it's like, okay, well, we're going to tell you how great we are, and you're not going to catch up anytime soon because you're not smart. That's basically the premise. And we're going to dance our asses off and look cute and preen and all that stuff.

[19:00] Jesse McAnally: So if we really want to get technical, like, MonkeyStrap is telling, like, Jellicle cats meet once a year. That's once a year for y'all, but once a year for us is, like, probably, like, once every five seconds, you know, or whatever.

[19:15] Zach Bravo: That's a lot of orgies.

[19:17] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. They're cats.

[19:19] Zach Bravo: Oh, yeah. Welcome to the junkyard, everybody. That is a – I had not thought about that detail.

[19:26] Zach Raffio: Cerebral is that – okay, you're living a different life.

[19:29] Jesse McAnally: That's why you get nine of them.

[19:31] Zach Bravo: Yeah. Okay. All right. Wait, wait, wait. Hold on. If the Heaviside Lair take away one of the nine lives, does it go nine times?

[19:37] Zach Raffio: Theoretically.

[19:40] Jesse McAnally: That is the – I don't think the nine lives thing applies to cats.

[19:43] Zach Bravo: Well, so the 2016 Gus said that he thought his nine lives were over, and that's why he couldn't be picked, because he wouldn't be able to be reincarnated. There's also a belief, is that truly are they dying? Or is the Heaviside Lair just, you know, a little spot in the Winter Garden Theater, you know, that's just up in the attic? There's that line where they say it might just be a spot.

[20:05] Zach Raffio: It just might be in the attic of the Winter Garden Theater, and they go up there and they hang out.

[20:09] Jesse McAnally: I love the idea of Hugh Jackman just wandering around and then accidentally stumbling into the Heaviside Lair. What is this? There are hundreds of grizzly bears up there.

[20:24] Mike Abrams: All right. I want to now pivot, because I think besides Zach, you got, I think, your choice. But you all got randomly selected choices. I want to hear who you would actually pick if you're Old Deuteronomy picking.

[20:36] Zach Bravo: Oh, Skimbleshanks, for sure. Give your reason.

[20:40] Zach Bravo: Well, if you hear the music at the very top of Act II, it's very specific, where Old Deuteronomy is singing the moments of happiness. I have to sing it real quick. The moments of happiness, and there's a Skimbleshanks motif that kind of implicates, like, oh, that could be him. That could be Skimbleshanks. I mean, I did the show eight times a week, and I always heard that, and that always made me think, like, oh, that could be a sort of signal being like, oh, could be Skimbleshanks. And he's so, like, he's very, like, fatherly, too. I feel like he, like, takes over that sort of position when Old Deuteronomy is not around, where he's, like, taking care of, like, all the rest of the kittens and, like, I mean, at least for the dynamic between Skimbleshanks and Tugger, like, he's my uncle, and I just, like, like to mess around with him.

But he definitely has that sort of, like, maturity where, like, he can take care of everyone, but he can also hold his own. And I don't know, like, and his song is, like, really great. I love his song so much. It's very Christmassy.

[21:48] Mike Abrams: So if you're Skimble, are you angry every year that this happens?

[21:51] Zach Bravo: If I was Skimble? Yeah, that you... Am I angry? Yeah, you're angry that all of a sudden this, you know, this cat that left you all comes back and takes your time to shine away?

[22:00] Zach Bravo: I probably would. Chris definitely did that.

[22:02] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[22:03] Zach Bravo: Every night, he was like, what the hell?

[22:06] Mike Abrams: Zach, are you sticking with Jenny?

[22:08] Zach Raffio: I'm gonna stick with Jenny, but I do like the Railway Cat. I like that he has a job. That stands for something in my eyes.

[22:15] Zach Raffio: Jenny has a job, right, and takes care of the mice?

[22:17] Zach Bravo: Jenny, she has a job to a point.

[22:18] Zach Raffio: Jenny has more of a...

[22:20] Zach Bravo: Oh, night work is the same as any other job.

[22:22] Zach Raffio: It is, but she's training animals. It seems more like if you love what you do, you never work a day in your life, whereas Skimbleshanks is really clocking in, clocking out.

[22:31] Zach Raffio: Yeah. But I'm gonna stick with Jenny.

[22:34] Mike Abrams: All right. Jesse?

[22:36] Jesse McAnally: Bust for Jones.

[22:38] Jesse McAnally: Death to capitalism.

[22:40] Jesse McAnally: Skin and bones. He's taking up everything. He's ruining the entire Jellicle community. He's drinking too much of the milk.

[22:48] Zach Raffio: Oh, yeah, too much. Love it, love it.

[22:52] Jesse McAnally: I have to pick Grizabella, because...

[22:54] Jesse McAnally: I thought we were gonna get through this whole thing without anybody saying it.

[22:56] Jesse McAnally: No, the Heaviside lair is not a reward. It is a mercy killing. So Grizabella is the only one who deserves that.

[23:04] Zach Raffio: Old Deuteronomy.

[23:05] Jesse McAnally: It's the first thing you said when we shook hands. You said that to me, and you whispered it.

[23:10] Jesse McAnally: Chris deserved to die.

[23:12] Zach Raffio: Ooh, you gotta chill.

[23:15] Jesse McAnally: Mercy? It's a mercy kill.

[23:17] Mike Abrams: Okay, Kevorkian over here. Tell me more here.

[23:23] Jesse McAnally: Well, I mean, the reason none of the other ones are picked, and they're better, they're better choices if it was a reward, but Grizabella's the only one who is so sad that she has to die. You know?

[23:38] Zach Raffio: That's the show, though.

[23:39] Jesse McAnally: That's the show. You could have argued that with Gus as well. Gus is not sad at the end of his song. He's very happy and performing.

[23:48] Zach Raffio: Skibble shanks the railway can.

[23:53] Jesse McAnally: I'm not saying I agree with it, but that's the Jellicle way. They're all monsters.

[24:01] Zach Raffio: You pulled this, and this is like you just embraced Old Deuteronomy here when you got that, didn't you?

[24:05] Jesse McAnally: A little bit.

[24:06] Zach Raffio: Yeah. Put the coat on.

[24:08] Jesse McAnally: I got skinned.

[24:11] Mike Abrams: Okay, who is the least worthy?

[24:17] Jesse McAnally: Who are the two that are always running around together?

[24:20] Zach Raffio: Muggle Jerry and Ripple Teaser?

[24:21] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. Them? I mean, they team up with the cavity, right? That's none of my business. But I don't know. I think they got each other. They don't need to separate. That's also the twins.

[24:34] Zach Raffio: There's the twins. Tantamile and Corkapet?

[24:37] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, I don't need them. Old Deut needs them, but we don't really need them. They can go. They're the ones that usually get cut when there's not enough cats anyway, so that feels right.

[24:49] Zach Bravo: I'm going to argue the Rumpus cat.

[24:52] Jesse McAnally: The Rumpus cat's not real. He's not worthy.

[24:54] Zach Bravo: Real or not, he's not worthy.

[24:59] Jesse McAnally: That superhero outfit? No.

[25:01] Zach Bravo: Fair enough.

[25:03] Jesse McAnally: That's Gus, though, isn't it?

[25:04] Zach Bravo: That doesn't matter.

[25:06] Jesse McAnally: It's Gus in a character.

[25:07] Zach Bravo: I mean, if the movie can go and take Growltire, which is also a character, and then make him, like, a real character for some reason, Rumpus cat.

[25:16] Jesse McAnally: The movie made some choices.

[25:18] Zach Bravo: What?

[25:19] Jesse McAnally: The movie's great. It's a one-to-one adaptation.

[25:21] Zach Bravo: Well, we're gonna get there in a second.

[25:23] Zach Raffio: Okay, I don't know how anyone could pick Bustopher Jones.

[25:27] Jesse McAnally: Okay. Yeah.

[25:29] Andrew DeWolf: Um, you gotta get him out of the-

[25:30] Zach Bravo: You gotta get him out of here!

[25:32] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, other than, like, an actual, like, revenge killer at that point.

[25:35] Andrew DeWolf: No, it's like, oh my god, our resources!

[25:38] Zach Raffio: True, yeah.

[25:39] Zach Bravo: Okay, let's go into the movie.

[25:42] Andrew DeWolf: Christmas.

[25:43] Zach Bravo: It's Christmas Eve.

[25:44] Andrew DeWolf: By myself in the theater, yeah.

[25:48] Zach Raffio: How was that experience?

[25:50] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, it was, uh, everyone left, like, there was, like, four people in the theater, and they left, like, midway through, and it was just me.

[25:57] Zach Bravo: Just you.

[25:57] Andrew DeWolf: I was just sitting there.

[25:58] Zach Raffio: Private screening.

[25:59] Andrew DeWolf: Private screening of CATS.

[26:01] Jesse McAnally: The opposite of a rowdy screening.

[26:03] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, and it was, it was before the improvements to the-

[26:05] Zach Bravo: Oh, yeah, you saw it.

[26:06] Andrew DeWolf: So I saw the original.

[26:07] Zach Raffio: You saw the, the, the hand and the, all the other-

[26:10] Andrew DeWolf: The hand cut.

[26:10] Zach Raffio: Yeah, the hand cut.

[26:11] Andrew DeWolf: The other cut. There was just, like, a boom mic and an actor just standing in the middle of the gelcoat trap at one point.

[26:17] Zach Bravo: They didn't finish the movie, and they put it in my theater.

[26:21] Andrew DeWolf: And you got to see it by yourself?

[26:23] Zach Raffio: I got to see it all by myself.

[26:24] Andrew DeWolf: Nobody wanted to see it with me.

[26:27] Zach Bravo: Where were you, Jason?

[26:28] Andrew DeWolf: I am in a, we live in different states, so I saw it the night it opened.

[26:35] Zach Raffio: That was the first time I saw it, and I was a little too drunk.

[26:39] Jesse McAnally: You went to see it four times.

[26:40] Andrew DeWolf: I saw it twice.

[26:43] Jesse McAnally: For the podcast, and I was a little too drunk, so I was like, did I see what I saw?

[26:47] Andrew DeWolf: So I went back the next day, and I was like, bone sober.

[26:51] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, I saw what I saw.

[26:53] Andrew DeWolf: And once again, it started with, like, a half full audience.

[26:56] Zach Bravo: By the time Midpoint hit, the audience was empty.

[27:01] Jesse McAnally: Which viewing did you like better?

[27:03] Andrew DeWolf: The second one, only because there was one other person in the audience, and then when Jennifer Hudson sang Memory and got to the Touch Me part, he stood up, clapped, and then left.

[27:13] Zach Raffio: And then left.

[27:15] Andrew DeWolf: They're like, I don't need to know that cats aren't dogs.

[27:17] Jesse McAnally: I'm out of here.

[27:20] Andrew DeWolf: I brought four other people that stuck through, to their credit, to the end.

[27:24] Zach Bravo: I love it.

[27:25] Andrew DeWolf: They didn't get to see the fourth wall be broken at the end there.

[27:27] Zach Raffio: And you feel like you're trapped.

[27:30] Jesse McAnally: The movie specifically, you feel like you're trapped.

[27:33] Zach Bravo: Zach, have you seen it?

[27:34] Zach Raffio: I have.

[27:35] Zach Bravo: I saw it very late.

[27:36] Zach Raffio: I saw it last year on a plane.

[27:38] Andrew DeWolf: It's a good viewing spot.

[27:40] Zach Raffio: I was like, oh, I never just got around to it.

[27:42] Andrew DeWolf: So I double featured that and The Father with Anthony Hopkins, which was, like, two bad choices.

[27:50] Jesse McAnally: Both for different reasons.

[27:52] Zach Raffio: Don't watch The Father on a plane.

[27:54] Andrew DeWolf: I had to, like, go to the bathroom after and sort of calm myself down.

[27:58] Zach Raffio: And then I watched Cats and had to calm myself down.

[28:02] Andrew DeWolf: Just watch Pitch Perfect 3 or something.

[28:04] Zach Raffio: I watched it two weeks before I started rehearsals, because I wanted to get a little bit of insight.

[28:13] Andrew DeWolf: The first time that I had heard that it was coming out, like, I was doing a production out in Long Island somewhere, and I heard that-

[28:23] Jesse McAnally: Who are you?

[28:23] Zach Bravo: I'm sorry?

[28:24] Jesse McAnally: Who were you in the show?

[28:25] Zach Bravo: In the show?

[28:26] Jesse McAnally: Oh, you just got here.

[28:27] Zach Bravo: I played Rum Tum Tugger.

[28:28] Jesse McAnally: Oh, sorry.

[28:29] Zach Bravo: Yeah, no, you're good.

[28:30] Zach Raffio: You're good.

[28:31] Zach Bravo: Yeah, I played Tugger in the last national tour.

[28:34] Andrew DeWolf: And so when I heard about it, I was like, why?

[28:41] Zach Raffio: Because from the image itself, I was already like, I don't know how I feel about this.

[28:44] Zach Bravo: But then I watched it just to, like, you know, just watch it.

[28:50] Andrew DeWolf: And then after seeing it, I was like, I really hope we're not going for this sort of vibe with the show.

[28:57] Zach Raffio: And then ultimately, like, of course, we weren't, because we were doing the revival version back in 2016.

[29:07] Jesse McAnally: How did the rest of your cast feel about the movie?

[29:10] Zach Bravo: Well, we had a press team to tell us to not talk about the movie.

[29:18] Andrew DeWolf: And if we were asked about the movie, we had to say, while the movie is a great take on what Cats is, we prefer you see it live.

[29:33] Zach Raffio: We could not, like...

[29:34] Jesse McAnally: You couldn't say, don't watch the movie?

[29:36] Zach Bravo: We couldn't shit on it, basically.

[29:38] Andrew DeWolf: We couldn't.

[29:39] Jesse McAnally: I can't imagine you all just being in there and being like, hold on, here's my talking points.

[29:41] Zach Bravo: The movie is...

[29:44] Jesse McAnally: Come see it live.

[29:45] Zach Bravo: Like, you have to, like, pull out your word for word quote.

[29:48] Andrew DeWolf: No, like, there were moments where, like, I had to, like, write it down because, like, I would get, like, you know, phone calls that, like, you know, for, like, articles for, like, the theaters and all that stuff.

[29:57] Jesse McAnally: And I would just be like, okay, I gotta be...

[30:00] Zach Bravo: The movie is really great, but we really prefer you see the show.

[30:05] Andrew DeWolf: When really, I was like, it's trash.

[30:11] Jesse McAnally: So you're saying people on press tours don't always tell the truth?

[30:20] Zach Bravo: The movie was...

[30:22] Jesse McAnally: My mind is blown.

[30:24] Zach Bravo: I will say, I will say that the, as far as, like, the score is concerned, they did have, like, a more modern twist to it.

[30:33] Andrew DeWolf: So I did enjoy that because there are, like, there's only two versions of, like, the orchestration of Catch, which is, like, the London version and in 81 and the Broadway cast recording in 83.

[30:46] Jesse McAnally: Both of which had very different sounds back then.

[30:49] Zach Bravo: And even...

[30:50] Andrew DeWolf: Sorry.

[30:50] Zach Bravo: And even in the 1998 staged film version of it, Andrew Lloyd Webber was still, like, trying to make it as big as possible.

[30:59] Jesse McAnally: Like, I think he had, like, almost, like, nearly a hundred piece orchestra just for the 98 version.

[31:06] Zach Raffio: So, like, he's...

[31:07] Zach Bravo: You know him.

[31:07] Jesse McAnally: He's just always trying to go bigger and...

[31:09] Zach Raffio: Love it.

[31:09] Andrew DeWolf: Bigger.

[31:10] Zach Bravo: I...

[31:12] Jesse McAnally: Zach, I'm still thinking. Did you have any weird reactions on the plane?

[31:15] Zach Raffio: Because I watched the 98 movie on a plane and I got some looks for sure.

[31:19] Andrew DeWolf: You mean, like, people, like, watching?

[31:20] Zach Raffio: Yeah, watching you watch Cats.

[31:23] Andrew DeWolf: No.

[31:24] Zach Raffio: Yeah.

[31:26] Andrew DeWolf: Every person on the plane, besides me, was watching Jungle Cruise.

[31:32] Zach Bravo: It was as if the choices were The Father and Jungle Cruise and somehow Cats at one point.

[31:39] Zach Raffio: So I think they were very interested in The Rock's little hat and they weren't really paying attention to me.

[31:43] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, you got off.

[31:46] Zach Raffio: I'm glad you got off the hook.

[31:46] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, King of Switzerland over here.

[31:49] Zach Bravo: A little thing called spirit, thank you.

[31:54] Jesse McAnally: Surprised the TV worked.

[31:57] Zach Raffio: Oh, it worked.

[32:00] Andrew DeWolf: All right.

[32:01] Zach Bravo: I do want to...

[32:02] Jesse McAnally: I mean, we...

[32:03] Zach Bravo: I want to open up.

[32:03] Jesse McAnally: Is there any questions from the crowd here about Cats?

[32:07] Zach Bravo: You all know my point of view on it, but love to hear.

[32:09] Andrew DeWolf: Open it up for a few minutes before we wrap up.

[32:12] Jesse McAnally: Come on, guys.

[32:14] Zach Bravo: Cats.

[32:15] Andrew DeWolf: Somebody's got an opinion.

[32:18] Zach Raffio: He is the Rum Tum Tugger.

[32:19] Jesse McAnally: Come on.

[32:21] Zach Raffio: I do have something to say.

[32:24] Zach Bravo: I know it's based on the T.S. Eliot poems, whatever, and like a lot of people feel like they see Cats and it's like, this is nonsense, but I kind of feel like it's actually genius.

[32:39] Andrew DeWolf: It's a hot take.

[32:40] Zach Raffio: Do you think it's nonsense or genius?

[32:42] Jesse McAnally: And that's all I want to know from all of y'all.

[32:45] Zach Bravo: What's your talking points from press?

[32:50] Andrew DeWolf: It's quite genius.

[32:52] Zach Raffio: No, no, no.

[32:53] Andrew DeWolf: In my opinion, it actually is.

[32:54] Zach Bravo: I really think so.

[32:54] Andrew DeWolf: Because it doesn't...

[32:57] Zach Raffio: It's just open for interpretation, which there are not a lot of musicals like that.

[33:01] Andrew DeWolf: I think people can handle that.

[33:03] Zach Bravo: No, yeah.

[33:05] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, Andrew Lloyd Webber at that time was pushing the envelope a lot, especially with like the Bible musicals, the Jesus Christ Superstar, Joseph and all that stuff.

[33:16] Zach Raffio: And Cats, I'm sure people were like, okay, now he's going crazy with just dancing.

[33:22] Andrew DeWolf: Cats, what's this?

[33:24] Zach Bravo: But no, there's actually something very magical, dare I say, angelical about it, about how you can...

[33:33] Andrew DeWolf: I think that's what's really great about this panel and this podcast, really, with Mike, is that you can have your opinion as to who you think is actually worthy of going to the Heaviside Lair.

[33:45] Zach Raffio: And I know for me, when working in the show, I tried to develop different points of views all the time whenever I would interact with a different cat, whether it be Mongo Jerry or Monkey Strap or Cork or Pat.

[34:02] Andrew DeWolf: I knew that I was...

[34:03] Zach Bravo: Or I knew that Tiger was never going to be a choice.

[34:07] Zach Raffio: Like Chrissy Cartwright, who had worked with Cats from the very beginning, she told me straight up, he's not a contender.

[34:16] Andrew DeWolf: So I was like, all right, great.

[34:17] Zach Bravo: So I'm just here to live life and party all the time.

[34:21] Zach Raffio: But I'm sure that there are other people out there that could argue that like, oh yeah, no, he could be a contender.

[34:26] Andrew DeWolf: I tried fighting for him for like five minutes.

[34:33] Zach Bravo: But I really do think that it's really great in its own way because you can have your own thoughts and opinions about it and which direction you want to go.

[34:44] Zach Raffio: It's like a choose-your-own-adventure musical sort of deal.

[34:47] Andrew DeWolf: The genius of it is that it was a world that was built and there's probably somebody that relates to everybody.

[34:53] Zach Bravo: And so that's kind of where you can see a little bit of yourself and probably one of the characters or a couple of them.

[34:58] Andrew DeWolf: The hard part about it is that it's really hard to, at that point, follow it.

[35:04] Zach Raffio: Because you're in a world, you're not really getting the structure.

[35:07] Andrew DeWolf: And that's where, as I now have 80 episodes of this, there's stuff I didn't know in the first 10 that I still like.

[35:15] Zach Bravo: I didn't know the balls and orgy.

[35:16] Andrew DeWolf: I didn't know some of these things that everyone's like, oh yeah, this is universal truth of Cats.

[35:21] Zach Raffio: I did not pick that up when I saw it in 2016.

[35:24] Andrew DeWolf: And I think that that is hard for certain audience members.

[35:27] Zach Bravo: If you are a, like, I'm a sitcom fan.

[35:31] Andrew DeWolf: It is not a sitcom.

[35:32] Zach Raffio: It is not a neat and tidy story through and through.

[35:35] Andrew DeWolf: But it's a world you get entered into.

[35:37] Zach Bravo: And it's from the moment you walk into the theater, because you see the stage.

[35:41] Andrew DeWolf: It's like, you know, there's not a curtain.

[35:42] Zach Raffio: It's like you're in the junkyard from the minute you go.

[35:45] Andrew DeWolf: And so I think that's what's pretty interesting about it.

[35:48] Zach Bravo: Anything that's made that much money is genius.

[35:51] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, it's been around for 41 years.

[35:56] Zach Raffio: We were just talking, it's in Vienna right now.

[35:58] Andrew DeWolf: It's on a Royal Caribbean cruise.

[35:59] Zach Bravo: It's touring internationally.

[36:01] Andrew DeWolf: It toured in Southeast Asia.

[36:04] Zach Raffio: It's got the Broadway revival.

[36:06] Andrew DeWolf: It is running constantly.

[36:08] Zach Bravo: There's a youth production in Canada going on right now for 18 and under that someone just told me about.

[36:14] Andrew DeWolf: Because that's what my life has turned into, by the way.

[36:18] Zach Raffio: But it runs constantly.

[36:19] Andrew DeWolf: And so to your point, it's made a lot of money.

[36:21] Zach Bravo: But it's because it's relatable content for almost everybody.

[36:24] Andrew DeWolf: And it will outlive all of us.

[36:26] Zach Raffio: Any one of us in this room, cats will survive behind it.

[36:28] Andrew DeWolf: Exactly.

[36:29] Zach Bravo: Also the music.

[36:30] Jesse McAnally: I mean, the music itself is just so flourishing.

[36:34] Zach Raffio: Even when you just hear, ba-na-na, come on.

[36:38] Andrew DeWolf: I just got chills doing that.

[36:42] Zach Bravo: I don't know if they did that for the Gillian Lynn version.

[36:46] Andrew DeWolf: But in the beginning of the overture, when it has that big flourish, ba-na-na, and they have this light ring that comes up.

[36:56] Zach Raffio: And it's just so, oh, man.

[36:57] Andrew DeWolf: I watched it from the corner every night doing the show.

[37:00] Zach Bravo: And seeing that, that's the magic.

[37:03] Andrew DeWolf: That is the magic that Cats has to offer.

[37:07] Zach Raffio: It's not only us jumping cats, but the music itself.

[37:10] Andrew DeWolf: It makes you feel shit.

[37:13] Zach Bravo: So there's that.

[37:14] Jesse McAnally: Love it.

[37:15] Zach Bravo: Well, thank you all for being here.

[37:17] Andrew DeWolf: Thank you, panelists, for having an incredible debate and discussion.

[37:21] Zach Raffio: Thank you.

[37:22] Zach Bravo: All right.

[37:23] Andrew DeWolf: And everyone, enjoy the rest of your BroadwayCon.

[37:27] Zach Bravo: I hope you've had a blast hearing the live episode from BroadwayCon.

[37:30] Andrew DeWolf: So thank you for listening to this episode of The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of the cast's atrophy.

[37:34] Zach Bravo: To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or anywhere else you listen to your podcasts.

[37:39] Andrew DeWolf: Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok at TheWrongCatDied.

[37:42] Zach Bravo: And check out our website, TheWrongCatDied.com.