(This is an automatically generated transcript and so there may be typographical or grammatical errors, especially as guests and host interact together.)

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I have always been fascinated by how performers navigate their identities and Personas. In this business. There's so much pressure to fit into categories, to play a version of yourself that's comfortable for others to understand. Sometimes it feels like a constant negotiation between onstage performer and the offstage person, and in both cases I found myself hiding parts of who I am, or sometimes struggling just to figure out what I am. J. Harrison Ghee, though, is someone who just owns it. I mean, talk about being visible, taking risk, and showing up fully as yourself. Even when it's scary or exhausting. J is the real deal.

And then there's Caroline Bowman, who played not one, but two of the hardest and most iconic female leads in musical theater, Elphaba, as well as Eva Perron. That's how I first met Caroline, doing the national tour of Evita. But then a few Years later, in 2019, I got to work with her again and met J. for the first time down at the St. Louis Muni performing Kinky Boots. They agreed to sit down with me one afternoon during that run and talk about roles they've played, hardships and resistance they've faced, and how they navigate criticism from others as well as themselves.

And I have to admit, it was a fascinating walk down memory lane for me as I went back to re edit this conversation. I mean, just think about where you were seven years ago. It certainly feels like a lifetime ago for me. This was before Caroline took the country by storm as Elsa in the Frozen national tour. This was also before J. won a Tony Award for taking on the dual role of Jerry and Daphne in Some Like It Hot. And before I made my Broadway debut in Beetlejuice. So I am glad to have a chance to look back at such a different time in each of our lives. You'll hear laughter and honesty, vulnerability and connection, with neither of them shrinking back or avoiding difficult topics. That unwavering authenticity made our time together so meaningful and worth revisiting.

Welcome to why I'll Never make it, an award winning theater podcast about the realities of a career in the arts. I'm your host, Patrick Oliver Jones, a Broadway actor here in New York City, and as we head into the 10th season, I wanted to take a moment to look back at 10 guests who have been so meaningful over the years. Their stories, honesty and lessons are still just as relevant today and I'm excited to share them with you again, reminding us all what it really Takes to keep creating, performing, and showing up in this business.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Caroline and J., thank you so much for joining me here on the season three opener.

Caroline Bowman:

Thank you for having us.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Thank you for having us. So excited to be here.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Now I have two divas in the house because both of you, you've done Lola.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And you have been Eva Perron. You're about to go into Frozen. And so what is it like portraying these powerful figures?

Caroline Bowman:

You wanna take this one? It's.

J. Harrison Ghee:

I mean, it's definitely been. For myself, it's been life changing in every way. It's helped build my relationship with my family and my father, who's a pastor in North Carolina. And so it's helped change his mind and his ideals of a lot of things. But also being able to reach a lot of audiences through such a dynamic character. And to. As I like to say, I've used the show as therapy for myself and like, gotten a lot of mess out and in that I've been able to be effective and change hearts and minds around the world, which has been unreal.

Caroline Bowman:

He's so good. He's like, he is made for this role. And I can't wait to see how many other roles. But this role is like, I've never seen Lola done like this. No, no, nobody has.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It was definitely a treat for me because I had seen the show in Toronto, so that was really my only experience with Kinky Boots. I never saw it on Broadway. But J, you definitely give a little extra that is quite.

Caroline Bowman:

Well, you bring something really, really special to it that nobody else does.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

But you also bring a few special things. You know, we did Evita together.

Caroline Bowman:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So I mean, your Ava Perron was a joy to hear every night as well.

Caroline Bowman:

That was really fun. And I actually was pretty young when I did that, so that was a shock when I got that role. Cause I was in the ensemble of Kinky Boots and auditioning. But. And when I got the audition for Evita, I was like, could this happen? And then I kept getting called back and I was like, oh my gosh. Are they really considering a 25 year old to go play Evita?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Cause what was that audition process like for you? Because you got called back several times.

Caroline Bowman:

Oh, yeah, I think I went in nine times.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Oh, wow.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Wow.

Caroline Bowman:

And it was while we were in previews for Kinky Boots, I was in auditions for Evita in February and then I didn't get the role until May. So I was. So we were opening a show. My very first show on Broadway or an original Broadway Cast. And then I was doing. Preparing my Eva Perron sides. Like, secretly in the corner, I was like, practicing my Bat Maz. Cause I knew I had to do that crazy dance sequence.

Caroline Bowman:

I'm doing my splits in the corner. And people were like, caroline, you don't have to do that in kinky boots. What are you doing? Nothing. And I would run off and go take Broadway dance center classes, like after we finish rehearsal for the day, or after we finished tech or on my dinner break, because I was like, oh, I need to go work on my dance. And I was so splitting my focus.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Because if you haven't seen especially this revival, Buenos Aires is no joke from beginning to end. It's like you're using the entire stage and everyone is going. And especially you in the front. I mean, you. You know, as a non dancer, I hate not having someone in front of me, so. So, yeah, you're out front and center, so you gotta know.

Caroline Bowman:

And I'm the only one singing. It was like, I never. I never thought about that. Like, the first big number of Evita is only Eva Perron singing, but everyone is on stage dancing. Wow. But it's only. I'm the one who has to.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

There's like 25 people on stage, but only one of them is singing 100%. And everyone's dancing to what she's singing.

Caroline Bowman:

Everyone's doing the same dance moves, but nobody's helping me.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh, my God.

Caroline Bowman:

So I would do for Evita. This is skipping ahead, but when I was practicing for Buenos Aires, we would do rehearsal all day, and then I would go home and go on a run and do interval sprints and sing what's New Buenos Aires while I'm like, sprinting.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Cause you have to build up that stamina.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Because that's a whole. Do you have the same kind of, like, physical workout in order to do Lola?

J. Harrison Ghee:

Honestly, no. Well, my training was a little different because I was a drag queen in real life before, during the trip.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

That's right.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So you came to Lola already kind of having that in your back, that experience.

J. Harrison Ghee:

And like, it was very funny. A lot of times when I was swinging the show and I had to swing the different angels and the tricks and the jump splits and things. There was always a special spot where the jump split angel would stretch and do the thing on tour. And our stage manager would, like, she cleared the area. She was like, do you need to practice and stretch? And I was like, no, I'm good. I'll just do it on stage. And she. It stressed her out that I wasn't in the way.

Caroline Bowman:

How old were you?

J. Harrison Ghee:

25? Yeah, 25. 26. And so she was, like, worried. And I just went on and everyone was so gagged at the fact that I had done the jump split. And I was like, you all hired a drag queen to play a drag queen.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

What do you expect?

J. Harrison Ghee:

I do this for a living. I'm doing it forever. I do this off this stage, on, like, smaller stages. It's like, I'm used to it. So, like. Yeah, different training. So I guess, yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Because Lola is a very physical, physical track. No matter what, you have to kind of give 100%. There's no marking Lola.

J. Harrison Ghee:

No. It's more draining to, like, try to pull back.

Caroline Bowman:

I would think so, yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Did you find that as well for Evita?

Caroline Bowman:

I'm like, well, I'm not going to show up at work if I'm not going to give you everything I have. Even if it's not very good, I'm still going to give you everything I have that day. Because it's like, why be there? It's just. That's not the way I operate. Is definitely not the way you operate.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Absolutely.

Caroline Bowman:

And then you're also leading the company. So by example people take, you're responsible for the energy, quite frankly. And so if your teammates see that you're not going to give it all, they're not definitely not going to give it on. The show suffers. So it's.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Do you see Lola as a leader of the company as well?

J. Harrison Ghee:

Absolutely. And that was one of the things Billy Porter actually said to me going into taking over the role. He was like, understand that you are responsible for the morale of the company. Like, you are a leader, and especially specifically of the Angels. Like, she's the leader of the pack, in a sense. And my Lola, specifically, I always said, well, I used to be one of the girls. This is just her moment to shine.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh, that's a good way to look at it.

J. Harrison Ghee:

And I really was one of the girls before. So it's like, it is a company of us. It is an ensemble of us. And the girls would say to me on tour a lot, they were like, it's different when you're not here because, like, we can be full out, because we know you're gonna come work full out.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So in that leadership role, how does that affect both your performance, but then also how you interact offstage?

J. Harrison Ghee:

It just makes you wanna be the best you you can be. It's one of those things. I had to have a conversation with My makeup artist, when I came to Broadway, because she took a little longer to do my makeup than I was used to getting done, because I was used to getting it done in 30, 35, 40 minutes and being able to walk around the theater and, like, touch base with people and. Because if I didn't see you on stage, I didn't see you at all.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

Caroline Bowman:

And that's. And I didn't like that and, like, having. Having a real human interaction before you're gonna go play characters.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah.

Caroline Bowman:

I mean, that makes. I feel like it makes your performance better. Cause you're, like, cool. I'm connected to you now. Let's go do this thing that. Our job. Let's go do our job.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah.

Caroline Bowman:

I used to try to do that when I was Elphaba, which is hard to do because the makeup takes a long time, and if I didn't do that, I would not see people. And then the first. The only thing that happens is everybody hates you. So not only am I, like, not getting any actual love from a human, I'm getting hatred thrown at me. So that was a lot. It was important to me to. To do, similar to what Jay always did at Kinky Boots, is like, go out and, like, give people a hug and say, all right, let's do this. Hands in, or something.

Caroline Bowman:

You know, whatever.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

That was actually one of my favorite memories of you on the Evita tour is that I can't remember if it was before the start of the show or maybe in our mission, but you would come onto the stage, you know? Cause we all have to be set on stage, and you're, like, kicking and like, go, let's go, guys.

Caroline Bowman:

Let's do that.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

You were, like a cheerleader for us, and it really was infectious, your positive, upbeat energy.

Caroline Bowman:

Well, the thing is, too, is I knew what I had to go through for the next two hours. I'm like, might as well, like, if I don't have my energy up at that point, I'm a goner. So it's like, it makes it easier to be like, okay, okay, okay, let's do it. Like, nobody ever under. And it's so funny, because there was a couple people who'd be like, how do you always have this much energy? And I'm like, I have to have this much energy.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It's not a choice.

Caroline Bowman:

That was a gift, too, because I was in the opening number, but hidden in Evita, so that was like, I had to be out there, so that was. I had to be ready by places which was nice. Cause I could go and say hey to everybody and give that whatever energy I had today.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Oh, absolutely. It was funny to me. One of the first times I did it at the Al Hirschfeld and went over. Because Lola and Charlie are literally on stage, right. And we're the only dressing rooms over there. And everyone else is in the left.

Caroline Bowman:

So far away. They're a city block away.

J. Harrison Ghee:

And I went over to the other side after I got my makeup done, and people were like, what are you doing over here? And I was like, I'm just coming to say hi. And they were like, oh, Lola's. Don't come over here. You're the first one to do it. And I was like, oh. It shocked people. Like, they were like, this is weird. This is weird.

J. Harrison Ghee:

And I was like, well, get used to it.

Caroline Bowman:

Just even to come over and say, how was your day today? I mean, and it means a lot. Cause you have. We all know what you have to go out and do. And so, like, everybody else in the cast that is. That follows you is like, oh, wow. The lead of my show appreciates me. And I appreciate. And we all appreciate you.

Caroline Bowman:

And we wouldn't. There would be no judgment if you didn't do that.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah, it was just mutual.

Caroline Bowman:

But it was like. It was just so great.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It really is an interesting dynamic between that because you bring up, like, whoever it is, and really whether you're doing a regional show, Broadway show, if the lead, the top people who. You know, we're all on stage, we're all in this journey together. But there's something about the lead interacting and asking how your day was or just connecting with you in some way.

J. Harrison Ghee:

One of the ladies, Adina Alexander on Broadway, I turned to her during Everybody say yeah. One day and gave her a high five and said, oh, that stitching was gorgeous on the booth. And she came to me off stage and was like, no one has ever commented. And to be so specific in a moment that it wasn't mic'd. It wasn't a thing. She's like, thank you.

Caroline Bowman:

And like, that's. You're respecting her character. She developed and, like, giving and improving with her. And that's.

J. Harrison Ghee:

It's like we're telling a story and we're doing a show and we're living in this world. Might as well flesh it out and, like, give it all to each other.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I love that. I love that. Now, you had mentioned that Lola was life changing for you or helped you. In what way did it affect you personally?

J. Harrison Ghee:

I live so out Loud now because of Lola. More so. Um, I just. There's a confidence that she has infused in me that I can't get rid of. And it really just allows me to. To be myself and to be a light to other people. And it's something I've lived my life, a lot of apologizing for who I was, and I didn't realize I was doing it. And once I had that realization, it was like, well, I can't go back.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah.

J. Harrison Ghee:

And I will never forget reading the Breakdown for Lola years ago and being like, this seems right, because it was like, you know, looking forward, star, actor, this, that, and the other. Can I be a wallflower? You know, be bold and all of these things. And I was like, well, I feel like that's me. And it sounds like. But at the time, I just. I still wasn't giving all of me. Genuinely, I would apologize for making bold choices or just kind of do enough to get by. And now it's like, you're just you.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So was the drag being in Lola? Was that a way to put on a mask? You know, I can be strong in

J. Harrison Ghee:

this area, and it's why I started doing drag to begin with outside of the show. It was a way for me to have complete creative control over this being and to be able to express myself and to affect people. I used to have my own show at New World Stages, and every week it was called the Crystal Fix. Everything I do in life, I try to do with intention and purpose. And so every show I did, I wanted the audience to walk away with something. There was a theme, a through line, and I wanted them to understand life or something in a different way. Now it's like, as I effectively do things for other people, it's like I'm also kind of ministering to myself and, like, encouraging myself through the art. And now it's just like.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah, it all, like, it's so fluid now.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right.

J. Harrison Ghee:

And a part. Also, my drag used to be so separate. I had separate accounts for it because my family didn't know I did it.

Caroline Bowman:

All right.

J. Harrison Ghee:

And now it's just like, it's all there. It's here. This is just me. Like, get into it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So before you, you were. You were Jay, and then Crystal was this other entity, this other being that you had, you felt powerful in.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

But eventually that power that you had as Crystal came into your own life.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

That's amazing.

J. Harrison Ghee:

And so. And Crystal informed Lola, and Lola informed Crystal and Jay. This got, like, mixed, like, is the, like, baby of it. All. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Giving birth to Jay, right? Yeah. And did you find the same with Elphaba? Did that give you a certain level of power? Certainly on stage. But then did it affect you as a performer as well?

Caroline Bowman:

You know, Elphaba in particular? I mean, that was, like, my dream to play Elphaba. And, you know, as long as I can remember, I mean, when I was 16 and I went for my sweet 16 birthday, it was my birthday present to go with, like, all my family. And we went and saw Wicked, but by that point, that was 2004, and I had already memorized the album. On Christmas morning, I laid down on the floor and, like, shut my eyes and listened to the whole album and was like, I'm gonna do this, and wanted it. So that was, like, kind of mind blowing, I think, and it was crazy, but because it is a huge endeavor to take on Elphaba, and it was. So my life really revolved around that. So I didn't really have much of a life to, like.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Once you became Elphaba.

Caroline Bowman:

Yeah. And I do. I actually think in a. Honestly, in a. It kind of affected my life in a negative way. And, like, I wasn't me.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, you had to take care of yourself so much so that Elva could be so strong.

Caroline Bowman:

So I didn't really have. I kind of lost Caroline a little bit and had to find her again after that journey was over. And looking back, I'm so grateful. And, like, it was. I'm proud, and I'm happy to have had that chapter, and I'm not. I don't think I'm gonna ever. I'm not gonna be, like, a recurring Alphabet, though. Like, it would be, like.

Caroline Bowman:

There's so many people that can do that a lot. And I'm just happy it happened. But I think now I have found confidence in the fact that I got to do that. And I'm a part of. It's a small part of the Wicked legacy, and it's a powerful role to do. So, yeah, it has affected my confidence and what I have to offer as a performer now, but I had to rebuild to get there, I think.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Wow.

Caroline Bowman:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

We now rejoin the conversation with Caroline explaining her introduction to theater and performing.

Caroline Bowman:

Well, my mom is an actor as well, and so I grew up watching her on stage. And, I mean, they wouldn't get a babysitter. I would go and watch her at every single performance. I remember going and watching her in Godspell and sitting in this, like. It was a community theater in Laurel, Maryland. Laurel Community Theater. And that's the first theater I started performing at, and I would sit.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

How old were you at this point?

Caroline Bowman:

I mean, six, maybe. Young.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah.

Caroline Bowman:

And what was interesting is I saw my mom. My. I lost my sister at a very young age. I was 3, and she was 6. And so I think I saw my mom. My mom was finding joy again through theater. And so as a young kid, I saw her be happy again. And I don't.

Caroline Bowman:

And I. This is something that I've, like, discovered in my adult life, I think. But, like, as a kid, it probably. I think it affected me deeply. And so I saw, like, theater sparking joy.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, theater is a type of therapy.

Caroline Bowman:

Absolutely.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I think anyone who's done it, really.

Caroline Bowman:

And my mom had done it and sings and did it all. And so, yeah, it was, like, something I wanted to do, too, with her, and so that was an issue.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So what was your first time on stage?

Caroline Bowman:

Ooh, I think I might have done a. It was, like, my very first production was like, A Christmas Carol, and I was a little caroler, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I think we've all done a version since Carol. Somewhere along the way.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Oh, yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And so how about you? What was your first time singing or on stage?

J. Harrison Ghee:

Well, I always say I came out of my mother singing. I felt like. And I grew up in church, and that's where, like, the singing came from for me. That. And I will never forget singing with, like, the children's choir at church and, like, leading songs and affecting audience, like, even the congregation, and being like, oh, there's a power I have that, like, I do this and people respond. But it wasn't until high school that I was like, I want to do this. Until then, I was gonna be. My mom wanted me to be the next Johnnie Cochran.

J. Harrison Ghee:

She was like, you like to argue with people. Like, go be a little girl. My dad has a PhD in administration and a master's in history. He's like, go get a degree and, like, do something in math and science. Be secure. And I was gonna go do that for them. And then in high school, I was in speech and debate, and I wrote an original oratory piece called Cookie Cutter Masquerade. And it was like, I was like, I can't do this anymore.

J. Harrison Ghee:

I can't hide this thing inside of me that I need to, like, let out. And then I was like, yeah, I'm gonna go study musical theater. I didn't know what I was getting myself into. My first, like, production that I did was 10th grade, and I was the tin man in the Wiz.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh, very cool.

J. Harrison Ghee:

And the Wiz is like my favorite movie. So good.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It is. So.

Caroline Bowman:

I bet you're amazing.

J. Harrison Ghee:

I wanted to be this of kind, but there was this other guy who looked much like Michael Jackson and song

Caroline Bowman:

is the best one.

J. Harrison Ghee:

And I made my own costume. It was everything.

Caroline Bowman:

So you were starting drag then?

J. Harrison Ghee:

Oh, yeah, it was everything.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

That's right. Because that's full beat makeup as well.

Caroline Bowman:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh, yeah. To be the tin Man.

J. Harrison Ghee:

And I didn't know how to tap, but I had old Stacey Adams dress shoes that had, like wooden soles so that, like would make. I spray painted them silver and like made a little shuffle step. And after the show, my brother was like, dude, when did you learn to tap? I was like, I'm good at what I do. Yeah.

Caroline Bowman:

You know that you fake it till you make it.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Exactly.

Caroline Bowman:

Still doing that.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah. Still faking it.

Caroline Bowman:

Still faking it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right, Right. Yeah. So, because it is so interesting how we all get started because you had mentioned about that power, that connection that you see with an audience. And is that something that even now, both of you see in whatever roles or whatever shows that you go into,

J. Harrison Ghee:

you hope your intention is that you can affect people and that they will feel your passion for what you do and in turn are affected and they just see life differently or they have a therapy moment for themselves and kind of open their eyes and just escape from reality for themselves. And that's always the intention as an artist, that your art reaches people.

Caroline Bowman:

So I do feel like there's in some way roles kind of come to you too. Like, there's only so much you can push for a role if you're not. If it's not meant for you, it's not. And so I feel like in any role you can find a connection, a deep connection with it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

You know, you had mentioned about roles that coming to you and some don't. Are there auditions or particular shows that you've gone out for? That didn't happen.

Caroline Bowman:

That just could have tons.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. What would be like one memorable one that you just were like, come on, why didn't that happen?

Caroline Bowman:

You know what? Let's just go for it. I really, really wanted Pretty Woman. I really, I thought I was perfect for Vivian. Like, I was like, this is my role. So that was a little sad. And I. Yeah, I just was like, I was thinking about that from when they made an announcement like years ago. I was like this.

Caroline Bowman:

I'm like, so this type. I've never, like. And. But you know, and I think as we get older. It's. It's harder because we're actually going in for more appropriate things. Like, we're, like, now we're falling into what our type is. And so it's like, oh.

Caroline Bowman:

Oh. It's more. It's. It's a little sad that I didn't get that, because I feel. I feel more right for the things I'm actually going in for. And I'm. And I'm more confident in saying no to things that I don't connect with. Instead of being young and being like, yes, I'll go in for everything.

Caroline Bowman:

I'll do it all.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I remember those days.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah. Yeah. I did a regional production of the Color Purple, and I was like, I should be Harpo, and just didn't happen. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

What did you end up doing?

J. Harrison Ghee:

I was in the ensemble, and it was fine. It was a great experience. And it's such a.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Talk about a powerful show. That's a really great one.

J. Harrison Ghee:

And we had a great time, and one of my best friends was playing Sofia, and so we were. I was really like, come on, let me be Harpo. Like, we was. It would be a dream for both of us. And it was just like, it didn't happen. It's like, fine.

Caroline Bowman:

I usually give myself. I say I can mourn this for a day. I give myself 24 hours to be like, I'm upset about whatever. If I really worked really hard on a role and ended up getting bad feedback or didn't get it. And I'll mourn it for a day, and then I gotta wake up the next day and be like, okay, we can't. I'm not gonna drag my feet anymore about that. So I. I allow the sadness, and then I move on.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Move on.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Because it really is. Yeah. It really is all about. Onto the next thing. Yeah.

Caroline Bowman:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Because you can't take that baggage with you.

Caroline Bowman:

Absolutely not. It weighs you down 100%.

J. Harrison Ghee:

And then you can't get to the next level that you need to be and should be.

Caroline Bowman:

And then every audition, you're just more and more weighed down, and it's. And then you. And then you're desperate, and then they cannot give you the job. When you walk into a room and you're desperate, you can't. They can't give it to you.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah.

Caroline Bowman:

Because they smell it. Everybody in the room smells it. And they're like, sorry, girl. Sorry, boy. It's not yours.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It really is a fine line between those roles that are perfect for you that you connect with. Like, you have a special connection to Lola in particular, but those roles that you connect with and showing that and showcasing your. How you can own the role, but then not coming across as like, I need this. I want this. This is mine. I'm dead.

Caroline Bowman:

Yeah, it's really hard. It's a really hard line. I'd still am figuring it out. I mean, I don't have it figured out.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I haven't figured it out either because I. I auditioned recently for Fun Home. I had just done the role of Bruce.

Caroline Bowman:

Oh, cool.

J. Harrison Ghee:

You're excited.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I auditioned for it again, but I think I may have had a little bit. I wasn't desperate for the role. I just knew I was right for it. But I think I just kind of overshot myself and just really gave that little extra too much in the room. It's like, see, Want me, use me, hire me. I think there was a little bit too much of that. So. Yeah, I think we all have our moments.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

When did you. This may seem like a conceited question, but I'm curious as to the journey of you discovering that you had this talent, that you had this gift, and that you wanted to. To share it on stage. You wanted to be a performer.

J. Harrison Ghee:

My mother always raised my brother and I to understand we were given gifts that weren't about us. So it was like, I knew I could sing, and I knew that dance came naturally and that there were, like, it was something I loved. And again, I sing and dance and people respond. And it was definitely, like I said, a journey that. It wasn't until high school that I was confident in saying, oh, I can go do something and be something in this world, in this field. And I cherish that from my mother more than anything. Knowing that this gift isn't about me. It's not something that I have to be overly confident or conceited about.

J. Harrison Ghee:

It's just like, be strong in knowing that this is something that's special and respect what you have and only allow people in your life to respect the gift you have.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Hmm. So important of surrounding ourselves with those kind of people.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

How about for you, Caroline?

Caroline Bowman:

I mean, I think when I started defending my choice to want to do this is when I was like, oh, I'm. I'm going to fight for this.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Why did you feel like you had to defend?

Caroline Bowman:

Well, I. Like my grandmother. I remember. I remember my grandmother. I think it was like my sophomore year of high school, I had decided I was like, I'm going to school for this. I want to go to a musical theater school. Like, I was very direct in what I wanted. And my grandmother pulled me aside at a family party.

Caroline Bowman:

I had, like, there was karaoke or something and they all wanted me to sing and I sang. And then she pulled me aside and she goes, are you sure this is what you want to do? Like, she and my dad's side of the family is a little bit more practical. And my mom's side is like, go for it. Why not? Like, life is short. Like, just like, go do what you want. And my dad for sure came around, but my grandmother was like, are you sure? And she was the only one in my family who had asked me that question. And I was like, yuni, yeah, I do. I really want to do this.

Caroline Bowman:

And I remember just being. It was probably a naive confidence that I had in myself. For sure.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

We all start there, for sure.

Caroline Bowman:

I didn't know. I just dreamed about wanting it and I want to just try. And I think I might have even said to her, like, what's the worst thing that could happen? I have to try because I'll be mad if I don't. I'll be mad at myself if I don't try. But. And then I think my dad, I think it was by senior year of high school, he came to see me in a high school musical. And he was like, you're pretty good at this, aren't you? Pretty good at this. Okay, yeah.

Caroline Bowman:

Like, he saw it. He, like finally saw me in a show and was like, okay, yeah, she's like, better than everybody else.

J. Harrison Ghee:

And sometimes you have, yeah, you have to like, show them.

Caroline Bowman:

Yeah.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Because my dad was very, again, he wanted me to do something very mainstream,

Patrick Oliver Jones:

go right, be safe office kind of thing.

J. Harrison Ghee:

And I was asking him for the application fee for school and I felt like it was a two day conference. Like, I went into his bedroom and like cried my face out and tried to put it in words for him to understand that it was something I had dealt with and I wasn't making this choice lightly. And he just, like, wouldn't give me this check and, like, wouldn't get. And he finally wrote it. And my dad is me. And my brother joked often that he was like Joe Jackson and just like so tough and everything. Just like we had to prove everything to him. And I took that check and I literally waved it in his face.

J. Harrison Ghee:

And I was like, you won't regret this. And now he, like, to this day he'll be like, well, I got mud on my face, but it smells good. But it just, it wasn't until he like, Came and saw me do a cruise ship gig and was like, oh. I was like, okay, you're good at this. And it's like, why is it taking you so long? I've been doing this my entire life.

Caroline Bowman:

My dad's the same way. My dad is like, he still comes to see me in shows and he's like, dang, I can't believe that you're up there, like. And then especially wicked, like, he would sit when I was the understudy for Elphaba, and he came, like, rushed up from Maryland to come see me. He was like, I was just looking around and everybody's watching. You cannot believe that all the audience is watching his daughter.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

There is something about that parental pride of having other people appreciate what their children do. And I think that. I think maybe for your dad, that was part of it. As to it, once he saw other people were appreciating, then it's like, oh, yeah, then I can appreciate this too, and I know that you can make it.

J. Harrison Ghee:

And he started to see that at my graduation from amda. My teachers, that day, he came to me later and my mom told me that my teachers had gone to him and was like, you've raised such a. Like a beautiful person, a human being. You won't have to worry about him. He's going to work. He's a great student. He's got talent and this, that. And apparently my dad was just in tears the entire weekend and just, like, so affected.

J. Harrison Ghee:

And I had already booked my first professional job before graduating, so he knew that, like, I was on the right path. Then things were happening, and then my career is, like, progressively grown and he's just like, oh, oh, okay, oh, okay, I get it now. I get it, I get it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

What have the both of you done in dealing with detractors or critics or those people who haven't come around and supported you?

J. Harrison Ghee:

I've learned to let them go. There are a lot of people who have been very negative and who were like, dear family friends and had a lot to say about even just the choice to do drag or the little things along the way. And I've learned to not carry them along. It's like, great. If you don't agree or don't understand, I'm just gonna keep going on my path of what makes sense for me and what I must do. And if you come around, great. If not, good luck.

Caroline Bowman:

Yeah. Because it's not going to help you keeping them around.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah. No love lost, you know, for who they are and all of that. But it's just like, no, there's something I have to do. And if you can't see that vision or tag along, then because ultimately you

Patrick Oliver Jones:

have to see it as that's their decision. That's not you, you know, and as you said, you don't have to carry that with you.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah, right. One of the things I say to people all the time is to keep people in your life who don't allow you to be delusional.

Caroline Bowman:

Keep people in your life who don't allow you to be delusional in the

J. Harrison Ghee:

sense of keep friends that keep you grounded. Yeah, all of my friends, will they keep me so level headed? My friends will never let me have a big head. Even if I tried, like, if I wanted to with all of my heart, they would not allow it to slap it back down. They'd be like, no, sit down. Like, they never let me think so highly of myself in any way. Or they know my heart and my passion and my desire and they know my abilities and they support me where I need it. And then they also are like, no, that's not your ministry. Don't try that.

J. Harrison Ghee:

That's not you. They know how to keep me in my lane.

Caroline Bowman:

The balance. Yeah, well, because in order to be in this industry, you have to know you have something to offer, but that doesn't mean you have to be a dick about it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Absolutely.

Caroline Bowman:

You don't have to be like, you don't have to be conceited. You don't have. It's like. Because also people don't want to work with that. I mean, you know, there are people who do have big heads and are. And work all the time and that's whatever. Hopefully we're getting rid of some.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, we're letting them go. Yes.

Caroline Bowman:

But it's like, why do you want, why would you ever want to be a hard person to work with? Like, it makes everybody's lives harder and then you have no real connection with the humans and then your life is awful. I always think, I'm like, man, certain people, they must have really lonely lives because this is our job. But ultimately it can't be the most important there is. Life to live. We can go and put on somebody else's shoes for two and a half hours at night, but then let's go have a good life and have friendships and people that balance you and keep you, keep you on the ground. Because that's what this is all about. That's the life we're living now.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

You had done a cabaret recently. I think it Was like a year. Year or two ago. And this was something.

Caroline Bowman:

My solo one.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Solo Cabaret. And I was reading that within that. You talked about an experience with a critic.

Caroline Bowman:

Oh, yeah, I did. Sara Bareilles, the song Sweet. Sweet as whole as an. The. That guy's an that girl. It's just. And in between verses, I just told stories or like, just different things, like on the Internet, because sometimes I. I don't do it anymore because it's just not helpful.

Caroline Bowman:

I try not to even read reviews because if I'll see the good ones and if there's bad ones, I don't really need to see them. But yeah, there have been a couple people who just blatantly are trying to, like, will try to hurt my feelings or like on a picture that I am tagged in, will comment underneath of it. And it's already happening with Frozen. Like, there's already. It's just everybody. Because we now have a platform or everybody now has a platform to share their voice. They feel like they can have an opinion about or should have an opinion about everything and should share it, whether it's negative or positive. So.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And all they have to be is asshole75 on Twitter and they can say whatever they want.

Caroline Bowman:

Yeah. And they're probably sitting in no man's land, like in front of their computer 24 hours.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Seeing you.

Caroline Bowman:

Right? Nah. Yeah. So that was. It was a fun. It was a funny way to kind of make light of it. Yeah. I had. I had somebody when I was on the non Equity Spamalot tour right out of college.

Caroline Bowman:

I had somebody write me directly to my cause. This was before there was no Instagram. Facebook was a thing. But like, I had on my website. I just made my website and there was like a contact section and it was a message to me that said, you are so incredibly generic. I hope you have a backup plan. And I was like, is that just crazy? But it's just, like, wild because why? Like, what was the point? I'm like, only person that saw it. Like, you just literally wanted to hurt my feelings.

Caroline Bowman:

I was like, what was the point of that? Like, why did you need to write that to me? On my.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Not to play devil's advocate. In their mind, they were probably like, oh, well, she should probably, like, have options in her life.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

She should think twice about this.

Caroline Bowman:

Maybe.

J. Harrison Ghee:

I don't know why I even tried to justify that, but it's still. It's.

Caroline Bowman:

Or it was somebody that I knew and it was some jealous girl or something or jealous somebody maybe. But it was like wild. Cause I'm like, I'll never forget it. Cause you know, you get 100 good reviews and you remember the one bad one.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, that's how it goes.

Caroline Bowman:

And it was just like. I couldn't believe that somebody would do that because I would never. I don't. Even if I think something is not good, I say nothing. I don't need it. You don't need to know my opinion.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Or maybe you just talk to the person you saw the show with, but that's about it.

Caroline Bowman:

10 blocks away, right?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

You just.

Caroline Bowman:

In the comfort of my own home with a glass of whiskey. Like, it's like. I'm like, you're not. You will not. I won't trash talk. Because quite frankly, we need all the support we can get legit.

J. Harrison Ghee:

I mean, even the things people will say to your face sometimes. I had a director say to me my first job, I was 19, working at Tokyo Disney. We were recording our sick tracks for the show and I had never been in a recording studio and I was like the male swing of. I was singing both male tracks and there's all these jazz harmonies and I was like, okay, great. And I was struggling with it and we were bouncing back and forth between these recordings and the director like patched in between one of the. When we were on break and she's like, are you even a singer?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And was it American or Japanese?

J. Harrison Ghee:

Japanese. Yeah.

Caroline Bowman:

It makes me laugh.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Japanese. Do not hold back. No, they do not.

Caroline Bowman:

We were talking about this last night.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah, they like, they will read you so sweetly, but like also like be. Some of them, like just.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Just very blunt.

J. Harrison Ghee:

And she was just like. And my little 19 year old self shut down and I was like, this is what I've been doing my entire life. How are you gonna question, like, what. And I went and I didn't. And subconsciously I carried that with me for so long and was so insecure about my vocals and things and it was just like, what?

Caroline Bowman:

Oh my gosh. And it's just like one person in that you'll probably never ever get to see again. But it's like so amazing.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah.

Caroline Bowman:

On the. On a note, that has nothing to do with performing. I did the China tour of Fame, so I think it might be Asian culture too, is pretty direct. Or. Or. Or they don't realize that that is if there's a language barrier maybe.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, yeah, they probably just don't understand the nicety. Sure, sure.

Caroline Bowman:

Like, it's like. She probably didn't mean that. She probably didn't mean it. As though you even. She just. That wouldn't affect you in that way. So we had to do. We had to get health examinations because we were there for three months.

Caroline Bowman:

So we had to get, like, fully examined. And they did an ultrasound on my stomach. And yeah, it was very intense. But the night before, we had. It was like Christmas. And we had had this huge hot pot meal and, like, so much food. Like, I ate until I was stuffed. And she.

Caroline Bowman:

She said as she was doing the ultrasound, she goes, big breakfast. And I was like, oh, my gosh, this woman is calling me. She's like. And I was like. It was like, big dinner from the night before.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right. Still in my life. Still in there.

Caroline Bowman:

Oh. But it made me laugh.

J. Harrison Ghee:

It's amazing what people will say.

Caroline Bowman:

Yeah, but.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

But no, I had the same experience at Tokyo Disney as well. In my mind, it's how they, I guess, push you to do better. It's their way of motivating you by kind of calling you out for this or that. And so I think that's. I mean, there are many things to appreciate about Japanese culture specifically. I mean, I love that their. Their precision, their. Their nicety, their respect for other people.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

The simple fact that on any escalator in the entire country, people are going to stand on the right and walk on the left.

Caroline Bowman:

Wow. I mean, and I also heard that, like, the train systems over there are, like, unbelievable.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, yeah. I mean, they literally have people with. With rods pushing so that as many people can get onto a train as possible. Wow. Just so they can, like, you know,

J. Harrison Ghee:

close the door and run on time and be. Yeah, they're all about service efficiency.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. So, I mean. I mean, there's a lot to appreciate, but I think.

Caroline Bowman:

And I've heard working for Tokyo Disney is pretty awesome, too.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. I loved it. Where were you?

J. Harrison Ghee:

I was at Big Band Beat in disneysea.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh. I was at the Disneysea back when they had Broadway Encore. Did they have that?

J. Harrison Ghee:

No, we went into that theater.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Okay.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It's this, like, beautiful theater.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Gorgeous.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It's very similar to, like, you know, the Fox theaters around the country, but just like, ornate and beautiful and huge.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Stunning.

Caroline Bowman:

Awesome.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, it was really.

Caroline Bowman:

Love that.

J. Harrison Ghee:

And like, the most dedicated fans ever. But then also the fans would come up to you and find you and be like, are you a little sick? You okay? And you're like, can I not be human?

Caroline Bowman:

Have a moment.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah. Because they. When they know your show, they know your show and they're like, deviate from that in any way and they're like, what's going on?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

What has been some of your best interactions with fans?

Caroline Bowman:

When I've had, like, some fans cry when, like, just because they're so affected by a performance or. Or meeting me, which is, like, so weird. It's bizarre to me because I'm like, I'm just. I'm just. I fart and, like, I'm like, I, like, don't. I wear workout clothes all day long. And, like, I'm not. And I'm not even close to a celebrity, so that's, like, what I've slept.

Caroline Bowman:

Actual celebrities get all the time, but, like, yet their people are so affected, which is beautiful. It's. I mean, it's means we're doing something right.

J. Harrison Ghee:

It's amazing to, like, receive fan art, like, and.

Caroline Bowman:

Oh, yeah, that's pretty amazing.

J. Harrison Ghee:

It's. I've actually framed some of it in my apartment. It's just so stunning of people, like,

Caroline Bowman:

drawing, and that is, like, people are so taken. Talented.

J. Harrison Ghee:

It's ridiculous. Yeah. And it's. It that affects me the most because they're so inspired by me.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And it's like, that your art inspires their art.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah. And it's. And then to see how talented they are in what they do, and you're like, I wouldn't even know where to begin to sit down in.

Caroline Bowman:

Like, I can't even draw a stick figure.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Barely. Like.

Caroline Bowman:

Yeah. That's amazing.

J. Harrison Ghee:

It's. Yeah. And then you get the.

Caroline Bowman:

And then they take the time because they're like, I want to give this to Jay.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah.

Caroline Bowman:

Like, it's just doing that for somebody you don't even know. Like, I'm Like, I'm not even that creative with my husband. Like, I'm like, this is a beautiful gift.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah.

Caroline Bowman:

And I'm like, I would love to be able to sit down and do this for somebody I really, really love. And they are. It's just amazing.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Oh, like, the closing weekend of Kinky Boots on Broadway, one of the fans.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, that's right, because both of you got to close out the show, right?

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah. One of the fans made everyone in the theater these little tiles that she found these pictures from people's Instagrams and social media, and she made these, like, glued magnets to these ceramic tiles, like, lacquered these pictures, and they were personalized to everyone, had the dates of all the date of the run of Broadway on it, and she made these. And one of them. I fully, like, burst into tears at the stage door because it was the most touching thing, and it was a picture of me as a little kid. And then she had infused a picture of Lola of, like, me in the finale costume.

Caroline Bowman:

And it was like, I just got chills.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Me as a kid, and I'm, like, standing in front of this door, and then, like, Lola was kind of, like, looking over, and I, like, lost it, because that was my journey in a tile. And it just like it. Yeah, it was the most. And I just couldn't take it. And it's, like, on my fridge.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

That's very sweet.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I'm tearing up.

Caroline Bowman:

Oh, my God. I love that.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

But no, it is interesting that, like, our. Our smaller selves and what we would say to them. What would we say to our smaller self now? And just the journey that we've been through.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah. I had a realization while I was on tour, and it. I said to myself, I feel like there's a moment we all had as a child where we knew exactly who we are and what we wanted out of life. And then family and society and life and everything else got in the way of that and told us what we were and what we are was wrong. And all we're doing as adults is fighting to get back to that moment of innocence and purity where we, like, no, that's who I am. And, you know, so, like. And I've been doing acupuncture recently, and my acupuncturist is, like, about healing the little kid inside and, like, getting back to that person. And I was like, yeah, and every time I want to be done with acupuncture, we tap into something else.

J. Harrison Ghee:

And I'm like, oh, God, you're just

Caroline Bowman:

fighting to get back there.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah.

Caroline Bowman:

And isn't it amazing? Because it's like a. You do a. It's the circle of life legit, because you get. I feel like you finally get back to that innocence when you're older, after you've lived a full life, and, you know, you're like, oh, I see that. Don't sweat the small stuff. I mean, don't. Just don't sweat it. I feel like I find when I am speaking to my grandparents or older generations, they're a lot more like Eve and Keel and just living their best life.

Caroline Bowman:

Truly living their best life. Like, we're searching to live their best life. But.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, yeah, because as we're growing up, I don't think that we have the knowledge or capacity to deal with all those outside influences that you mentioned, Jay, because we think that that should be who we are. That is, someone saying, that I love and respect is telling Me, I'm this, then that must be what it is. And so then we try to live up to that or try to answer that call as opposed to our own call that's within us.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Right? Because nobody else can feel or understand that thing that you have. And you could try to put it into words, but nobody can understand it in a way that you can and live in that. And so you have to be your own living example of your light and your energy and just like, be, just be, just be.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

You know,

Patrick Oliver Jones:

With regards to, you've spoken a lot about Lola and kind of being a part of that journey. Has there been a role, role, Caroline, for you that has embodied that, that journey that you've gone on?

Caroline Bowman:

I mean, I think playing Evito was pretty life changing for me. That was me sort of stepping into what I really, I really wanted to be a leading lady and trusting that I could do that. And I think I always believed that I could. So having other people believe that I could and then finally being able to show that and, and do it confidently pretty young. I, I, yeah, I would say that that was pretty groundbreaking for my life and made me believe that I could

Patrick Oliver Jones:

do it because that was a chance for you to show everyone else what you felt and knew and signed yourself.

Caroline Bowman:

I think I haven't, I'm not done proving myself. I think I still am, like, trying to be like, no, I can do this. And I still haven't, I haven't figured out how to completely walk into a, like what we were talking about earlier, walking in without desperation. And I don't know if I care a lot. I care about everything, and not just in this business, but I care a lot about other people and I care how they feel, whether it's about me or. And I'm a complete empath. And so I like, take on, probably to a fault, like, I'll take on other people's emotions. And I had my mom tell me one time, she's like, you can't be helpful if you go there with them.

Caroline Bowman:

So I couldn't be like a good friend or couldn't be a good partner if I completely took on what they were feeling. And so I had to learn how to. I don't know, I'm still really working on myself, which I think is good. I think we all are. So I, I mean, Audra McDonald doesn't audition anymore, but, like, how do they walk into a room and audition for things? Like, how does, like, Kelly o' Hara or, and I know again, Sutton Foster, I'm sure They don't audition. I'm sure they just get offers, which. That's even crazy, too.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Like, I'm like, that's a whole other level.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Okay.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah.

Caroline Bowman:

Like, what. What is. Will I. Will I get to the day where somebody just says, do you want this role? I don't know. I think I'll maybe always have to prove myself. I mean, maybe eventually that'd be cool. But I'm still, like, working on who I am when I walk into the room. And you were saying earlier about not apologizing, I think because you don't want to seem desperate, but at the same time, I want to walk in and be like, hi, how you doing? I want to know about your day before we start doing this audition.

Caroline Bowman:

But that may seem like.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Especially if it's someone you know behind the table right then.

Caroline Bowman:

And that's the thing is, like, I think the more I'm excited for more people to know me, like, really know me, because then I can walk into the room and just be completely myself. And it doesn't look like I'm trying too hard. Right.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Because they know that whenever you say that stupid pun or joke, you're actually.

Caroline Bowman:

No, I'm just acting like a goofball. They're like, yes. No, she's actually like this every day.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. She's not putting on an act. This is who she is.

Caroline Bowman:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

What then does it mean to make it to you?

Caroline Bowman:

That's changed a lot over. Over my life, I think.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Where did it start? And where. Where do you see it now?

Caroline Bowman:

And every. Every wish on a candle I had for every birthday was, I want to be on Broadway. So, like, when that happened, I was like, do I. What do I wish for now? I mean, I can't even remember how many birthdays I wished. I was like, I want to be on Broadway. Like, it was like, in my head, closed my eyes, quietly, didn't say it out loud. That was my wish. And so I think it's interesting having your dream come true and then having to figure out what your next dream is.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah. I've always said my dream is to just entertain the world in whatever capacity I can. I don't have an end all be all of, like, I want to have this award, that thing or this or be here or be there. It's just like, as long as I can entertain and affect and reach people, I've made it, so.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I've made it so you're there.

Caroline Bowman:

Yeah.

J. Harrison Ghee:

But, like, you can always keep making it.

Caroline Bowman:

Sure, sure.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Of course. It reminds me of the Andre de Shields acceptance speech.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Oh, God, yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Which has become, like, my life motto. One of the last things he gave, like, these three mantras for life, but one was that the top of one mountain is the bottom is the bottom

Caroline Bowman:

of the next mountain.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

The next mountain. And that's so true. So once you reach Broadway Mountain, what's next?

Caroline Bowman:

Well, and it's so funny, because I started thinking about that after I got on Broadway. I was like, oh, I have to think about what my next dream is. And then I was like, that one was so clear. And I'm trying to suss out what my clear dream is, because I've tried to be, like, cool, because I really am into secreting and making things happen. I think that that's so real as long as you work hard. But I didn't really have a clear image of what that next dream was like. I'm like, do I want to be on tv? Do I want to? But I'm like, I couldn't figure out what clearly that dream is. And it's exciting figuring it out.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah.

J. Harrison Ghee:

I don't know. Just.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. What's next for Jay?

J. Harrison Ghee:

We'll see.

Caroline Bowman:

Oh, I'm so excited for what's next for Jay. I'll secret it for you.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Because, I mean, until working together at Muni again, I didn't know much about Kinky Boots or the people that had come and gone from it. So, you know, this was. It was my first introduction to you, and I was so glad that we got to meet up and get to know each other, because, yeah, we talked earlier about leads, really being a leader in the cast, and your energy, your light, your infectious spirit that you bring to Lola just, I think, exudes to all of us. And it's really hard to leave Kinky Boots and not be excited by the end of the show. I mean, the show's written that way totally.

J. Harrison Ghee:

It's constructed so brilliantly, but, I mean,

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I think the performers that are in it add that extra spark that isn't just on the page.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Thank you. And that's one of the things I've carried with me, that Jerry always said to us when he came to check in on the tour or whatever, that we were all in these roles because we were these people. A part of us were these characters, and we had to embrace that, you know? So every Charlie, every Lola, every Nicola, every Lauren, like, we're all these people. Every factory worker, you. You are part of that person is you in some way or other.

Caroline Bowman:

You have a story to tell.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Now allow that to, like, be full and, like, carry that. And, like, don't shy away from it. And I always tell people who joined the tour, I was like, this show will change your life if you let it. And you have to be open to the journey and the experience of Kinky Boots, because it really is, like, an experience. Yeah.

Caroline Bowman:

And on Broadway, it was. So Jerry would tell us when we were teching the show, he goes, you are exposed. We see you. So you tell a story. Tell us your story. And so he really wanted all of us to have a thorough backstory. And I appreciate that. Cause I go to a show and I watch the ensemble, especially after working with Jerry Mitchell.

Caroline Bowman:

I look for people's story, and I'm like, that person didn't enter the scene with intention. That person left the scene. I'm like, you're just pushing a set piece out. No, you're not. There's something to be said about that, and that's why it's so strong. It lasted so long on Broadway because it was such a strong company of storytellers.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I think that's something I've had to learn myself in being ensemble. Because in New York, I've mostly just been ensemble. But when it comes to regional, then I can do supporting and principal roles. But I think you have to approach both the same way and that you have to be just as committed and specific as you were saying, Caroline, about the character, whether it's ensemble number seven or, you know, whether you're the lead soul.

Caroline Bowman:

And it's sort of more work as an ensemble member, because you have to come up with it. You have to be creative.

J. Harrison Ghee:

But then it makes your. It makes work a little more fun. Because as a hundred percent. And I went on as a factory worker, the people who were on every night would be like, you were just happy to be in this factory. And it was like, well, my backstory that I've given myself. Guys, if you only knew. And it was just like, I created this full story, and they were like. Like, oh, okay, that makes sense.

J. Harrison Ghee:

I understand. Yeah. Carlton Worthington.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Was that your factory?

J. Harrison Ghee:

That was my factory worker name. I love it. Yeah, I love it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

That's so funny.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah. He was disowned from his family.

Caroline Bowman:

Oh.

J. Harrison Ghee:

And they. They. I know that was working. Like, the family sent me to the factory to, like, man me up. And we were making men's shoes, and then the girls come in and, like, we start making these boots. And my job at the factory was to put the stones on all the boots. And I was like, yeah, it's like.

Caroline Bowman:

So that was.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah, like, really heavy with the queen's cake.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So little did they know. Yeah.

Caroline Bowman:

My original factory name was Maggie Radcliffe. Nobody knew the last name. And. But then now there's a Maggie in every single show because Jerry asked all of us to have our name. Like, what were our factory names? And so Maggie was written into the script because I came up with her.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah.

Caroline Bowman:

Like, that is so cool. Nicola asks, wants to ask Maggie to be a bridesmaid because Harvey Fierstein found out that I had named my character Maggie.

J. Harrison Ghee:

And.

Caroline Bowman:

And Stark Sands, who was the original Charlie, kept calling me different name. Like, he would. Like, when he was calling for the fact he would change it every day. And he would, like, call me, like, Helen. And I went up to him and I was like, stark, why do you keep calling me different names? And he was like, I'm so sorry. What is your factory name? And I was like, maggie. And I was kidding. Like, I was just giving him the crap.

Caroline Bowman:

But the next day, they're like. He screamed, Maggie. And everybody turned around and was like, who's Maggie? And I go, that's me. That's me.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

That's me.

Caroline Bowman:

And so Harvey wrote Maggie into the script, and so everybody. Every character. Who is that? It's so funny. And she, you know, sings a lot of high notes and pushes some sets, but she is in the show everywhere, all across the world.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah.

Caroline Bowman:

Because I one day was like, I'm going to be a mixture of Maggie Smith and Daniel Radcliffe. Harry Potter.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh, there you go. Those are two people to look up to. I mean, who wouldn't want to be Maggie Smith?

Caroline Bowman:

I'm sorry.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

She's fierce and she. She. She takes grief from no one.

J. Harrison Ghee:

No, no. Oh, she's the best.

Caroline Bowman:

No. Strong lady.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Love her in Dalton Abbot.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Stay tuned. When we return, you'll hear some audition stories as well as the very first final five questions.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

If you have, like, a memorable audition that went wrong, auditions that went great that you always think about. I'd love to just get that story.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Okay.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Jay's got one. And you.

J. Harrison Ghee:

It's not like a fun or epic.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

No, no, no.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Just something that means a lot to you.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah, Yeah.

Caroline Bowman:

I gotta think.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, think about it. All right, Jay, so what is a memorable audition to you that you've had?

J. Harrison Ghee:

Earlier this year, I was in auditions for the revival of Dreamgirls. And I've always seen myself as a perfect Cece. Like, now, later in life, a perfect Curtis, but never imagined myself as Jimmy early. Ever. Didn't think about it wasn't on my radar at all. And they were having me come in for Jimmy early, and I was like, okay. So I, like, go in the room, like, sing the stuff. And they're like, okay, you sound great.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Now unbutton your shirt and, like, sing from your crotch. And I was like, okay. They were like, you just. You're too pretty. It's too clean. It's too Jimmy.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh, they want to mess it up.

J. Harrison Ghee:

They're like, you have to rough him up. You've got to be dirty. You've got to, like, be careful. You have to do the most. And I was like, oh, okay. So I did that, and they were like, great. Left the room sweating. Like, it was wonderful.

J. Harrison Ghee:

They ended up bringing me back in for a work session with the musical supervisor and casting. And again, they just working through things, and they're like, okay, great. Just dirty him up. Like, make him rougher. Like, throw caution to the wind. And as I was in the room, I realized to myself, I was so used to being told or, like, regimented of, like, okay, these are your parameters. Be within these things. And these people were literally asking me to just do whatever and not care.

J. Harrison Ghee:

And I was like, oh. And again, I left the room sweating and, like, a little out of breath because I was like, oh, God, yo. Like, put me through the wringer, like, doing this. But also, it showed me that I could be much more than I thought I could. And I was glad I had that opportunity to just be like, all right, there's more in me, and there's still more I can find in my voice and in my choices and how I carry myself. And even after having played Lola, which was such a, like, over the top character, I was like, oh, I can be even further than that.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, it is interesting. We get kind of in our little box about, okay, this is how I get cast. These are the roles that. This is what my voice does. But then to be told, no, go over there where you haven't been before.

J. Harrison Ghee:

They were like, yeah, we love that little growl you did and this little thing and that little air you let in your voice here. And I was like, oh, I didn't even know I could. Could. I had been such a, like, pretty singer all the time, and I was like, oh, no, I can be gritty. I can be dirty. I can go there if I let myself. So, yeah, all right.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I like that. All right, Caroline, your turn.

Caroline Bowman:

I have one now. So I was auditioning for the Falsettos tour, and I didn't really. I. They Originally were calling me in for Cordelia. Is that the lesbian from next door? I think I can't remember the characters names. I really. I was like, if I'm gonna go on tour, I wanna play Trina. I wanted to play the Stephanie J.

Caroline Bowman:

Block character, but I knew I was a little young and knew I probably wouldn't get it, but I was like, I want this. And so I went in for James Lapine and just casting the first day and. And a lot of people had. Apparently James Lapine in the room is very like, he will test you. Like, he's very like, he's not afraid to like poke at you, especially if he likes you. So a lot of people had warned me about him before I went in the room. And so I was ready to like be sassy with him. And we.

Caroline Bowman:

I sang. So there's. There was two songs. The holding to the Ground and Break. And then the funny song is I'm Breaking down and she's literally having a breakdown, like chopping watermelon. And there's lots of props that make it really funny too.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah.

Caroline Bowman:

And so I sang holding to the. And we had already like shot the shit a little bit. We like talked and. And he. I was joking with him and I said. But he. So he wanted me to sing holding to the Ground and he like really worked on it with me, like as an acting piece. And it was really fun.

Caroline Bowman:

Like, I got to a really emotional place with it and it was like really deep. And I finished and he was like, okay, I can tell that you're funny, so you don't have to sing the other song. And so I was like, great, I guess I'm getting a call back. So I did. I got a callback for the whole entire team and I. And like for my whole life pretty much. And I don't always do this, but I've been told that you're supposed to wear the same thing. Have you been hurt? I've heard this.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. When you get called back, wear the same thing.

Caroline Bowman:

And William Finn was gonna be in the room and so I was like, I'll wear the same dress. I was like my housewife. Like, it was like a 1950s looking dress with a sweater over top. Like, it was very Trina to me. And so I walk in the room and the first thing James Lapine goes. He goes, oh, you made a big mistake. And the whole room is. There was like 15 people in the room.

Caroline Bowman:

He goes, you made a big mistake. And I was like, what? And he's like, you Wore. You wore the same thing twice. Like, why would you do that? You don't do that. You don't do that with James Lapine. Like. And he just started. He started bashing me.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh, wow.

Caroline Bowman:

And so I was like, okay, okay. He's giving me shit. Like, this is what people told me. Me. And so I was like, well, I was like, william Finn hasn't seen the dress. I wore it for him. And. And William Finn was like, what, is there, like, fruit on it? Like, he.

Caroline Bowman:

Like, he. He wasn't having it either. Nobody was having it. And yeah, he was just giving me all this crap for wearing the same dress again. And. And then. And I ended up. And then I ended up auditioning and I started singing holding to the Ground again.

Caroline Bowman:

And I don't really think it affected. I think I was like, hold, keeping my cool. But he stopped me and he goes, sing it to us. He was very, like, not talking to me. He was very, like, forward. And I'm like, okay. And so he wanted me to sing it into the eyes of everybody. And I just started bawling, like, to the point where I couldn't really sing the song.

Caroline Bowman:

I just started, like, I got. I had a full out, like, breakdown singing holding to the Ground. Then he was like, go right into I'm Breaking Down. He fully made me have a breakdown to sing I'm Breaking Down. It was kind of weird. I was. And I was like, I think that's what he did. Like, he fully was trying to make me break down so that I.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

He was pushing you.

Caroline Bowman:

I had a breakdown while I was singing. Like, I'm breaking Down, my life is shitty and my kid seems like an idiot to me. Like, I was like, oh, my God, why are. This is either this is either like, you're. You're torturing me, or this is the best acting exercise I've ever had. And I walked out of there. I was like, what just happened? Like, I'm sweating from every single pore in my whole body.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And I assume you had no idea how they're receiving it because you're so like, yeah, I don't know.

Caroline Bowman:

I probably looked crazy. I think I looked crazy.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh, my God.

Caroline Bowman:

But whatever, it was fine. I'm glad and I'm glad I went in for the part that I wanted to go in for. I just didn't. I. I knew I was a little young and that's what my feedback was, but. Yeah, but, but, but, but the thing

Patrick Oliver Jones:

is, your youngness didn't change from the time you started auditioning. To the callback. So it's, like, true.

Caroline Bowman:

You did call me back. You did call.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

You knew I was young.

Caroline Bowman:

It is interesting. Interesting when I get that feedback because I'm like, wow, I'm the same age I was before.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I. I think that's just their easy go to.

Caroline Bowman:

Yeah, she's just young.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

She's too young. Too old or whatever the.

Caroline Bowman:

Yeah, it's an. It's an easy feedback if you ask for it, so. Which is why I don't ask for feedback anymore. I'm just like, if I got. Because I'm not gonna give it a job if. And it's not gonna be helpful. Really.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

No.

Caroline Bowman:

Unless literally, they say, you know what? She. They. They didn't like this choice.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right, Right.

Caroline Bowman:

And they liked this choice better.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

From now on, when you audition, do X, Y, and Z, and that's how you need to present. It's like, right. Oh. Oh, okay.

Caroline Bowman:

Right. But if it's. If I don't need feedback, if it's gonna be. You're too young.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Too young.

Caroline Bowman:

Cool.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I can't.

Caroline Bowman:

Great.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Great.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Can't do nothing about that.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

You're a woman. I'm sorry. We can't.

Caroline Bowman:

Cat.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It's like, okay, well, I've always been a woman, so I don't really know what.

Caroline Bowman:

That can't really work on that. Anyway, I'm excited to audition for James Lapine again because I guess I'll wear two different outfits. So if he calls me.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

No, no, I think you should wear that exact same dress and be like, I'm back, actually.

Caroline Bowman:

That's brilliant.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah.

Caroline Bowman:

And be like, I'm coming for you, James Lapine.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

You loved it so much. I'm doing it again. All right, Caroline. So now we're at the final five. Final five questions.

Caroline Bowman:

I don't know what the music should be for that. Maybe it should be happy.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

The final five with some kind of, like, you know, wand that brushes across. Welcome to the very first final Five questions. Now, that intro music was inspired by something Caroline said, which is why I thought it would be so funny to include that portion. The way she talked about it, it got me thinking and inspired me to go into GarageBand, play around a bit. And that is the result. So final five is how I end every interview. And I separated these questions from the main episode because while the five questions are the same, each of the answers that guests give are very different based upon their experience and based upon what they've gone through. And as this is the very first final Five bonus episode, I have both Caroline and Jay answering these questions.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

All right, so number one, if there was another job that you could have that wasn't in theater, what would that be?

Caroline Bowman:

Probably a veterinarian. And I used to say that all the time. I just don't like school. So I had school in Vietnam. I had to go to a lot of school, school to be a vet, so.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

But obviously you love animals.

Caroline Bowman:

I love animals and I especially love dogs. But I love all animals and I think they're sometimes better than humans often. And I also, I don't know if I would be able to put them to sleep, but that would be a really hard part of my job. So I do, I do say that one day I would like to live on like a big old farm and have like a dog kennel or like a dog shelter, even like a no kill shelter or something and just have a bunch of dogs just running around and living their best life. So yeah, something with, with animals.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So as far as like a bucket list role or show, what would be at the top of that list for you?

Caroline Bowman:

Maybe I'm gonna say two. Joe and Little Women and Sally Bowles and Cabaret. Yeah, right now. Those are my two right now.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Different, very different roles, but very good. Yeah, I love that. Number three. Who is it that you look up to or that inspires your performance, your craft as an actor?

Caroline Bowman:

Sutton Foster has always been my idol. I don't know what I'm going to do if I ever work with her because I pee my pants and then. Annalee Ashford is a dear friend of mine. I met her doing Kinky Boots and she has just been a big champion of mine and I'm 100% her biggest fan, so. And it's cool to have a friend that is like so successful and. But that you also look up to and she's just so grounded in a human being and has a beautiful family, but also is just nailing it with. And she's so true to who she is and like she knows exactly what she can do. And it's just I, I admire that so much.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, it's important to have people in our lives that are examples of that we can ourselves.

Caroline Bowman:

Yeah, I think about, I do like I'll be like, what would Annalee do for her? And then I think about what I would. It's so she, she's a master class of not only comedy but just like acting because she just, she knows, she just knows what she does best and I'm still trying to figure that out for me. And so I think about her a Lot.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, speaking of figuring things out that. That leads to, number four, what is a. A lesson or a character trait in yourself that. That took you a long time to work on or. Or something that you're still working on even now.

Caroline Bowman:

Caring about what other people think, like,

Patrick Oliver Jones:

caring too much or caring too much.

Caroline Bowman:

Caring too much, probably, like, trying not to let that affect me. And letting go of that is something I'm still working on and something I think I've gotten better at. I think I've been able to release a little bit as I've gotten older. I've been able to be like, okay, yeah, it's a waste of energy.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

We'll let that go now.

Caroline Bowman:

We'll let that go. But it's still hard. That's a hard thing, I think. I think for anybody.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Because it's still. It's still.

Caroline Bowman:

We have. Well, it's also a business of, like, people need. Needing to like you sort of. Or making. Making somebody like you.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. I mean, we do have to convince people behind the table to. To like us, to want us, to see us as good enough.

Caroline Bowman:

Right.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

For their production. Oh, I get that.

Caroline Bowman:

So knowing that I'm good enough, working on that.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Right.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

All right, last one. What is the best advice you've received, whether in life or in theater?

Caroline Bowman:

Don't compare yourselves to others. Everybody's journey is different. And not. Your journey's not going to look like theirs and theirs isn't going to look like yours. So, yeah, not comparing yourself.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

All right, Jay, here we are at the final five.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Final five.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So number one, if there is another job that you could have that wasn't in theater, what would that be?

J. Harrison Ghee:

Event coordinating and planning.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Like, what type of events?

J. Harrison Ghee:

All of them. All of them. Specifically weddings.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Okay.

J. Harrison Ghee:

I live for weddings. They are the most special day. They make me the most happy. Either that or interior design.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Okay.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Like, give me a room to decorate and I'm, like, so happy. I'm at HomeGoods every other day.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, your 11 o' clock number in kinky boots. You're basically wearing a wedding dress.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Oh, yeah. Oh, I've already had my wedding gown picked out. Like, I'm getting married as a man, but my reception. Full drag.

Caroline Bowman:

Full.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Love it.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah, I love weddings.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

All right, number two, what is a bucket list, role or show for you?

J. Harrison Ghee:

I've always wanted to play seaweed and hairspray. Never done it. I booked it once, but then Norwegian Cruise Line called me, like, the next day, and they were like, did you not get our email with the offer and The Hairspray production was, like, two weeks in Massachusetts, and I was like, I've got student loans. I need to go work on this cruise ship. So that also, I would love to be Motormouth Maybelle, because if Edna can be a drag queen, why can't Motormouth? Just saying.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I see that. I see that.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Just saying.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And you'd be. Oh, you'd be good. You'd be good, too. What's the kind of the warden in Chicago?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

What's her name?

J. Harrison Ghee:

Oh, Matron Mama Morton. Yeah, Matrimon Mama Morton.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I could see you really tackling that one. I'm just adding that to your list.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Thank you. Appreciate it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Number three. Who is it that you look up to or that inspires you?

J. Harrison Ghee:

Billy Porter. I found him when I went to amda. I found his album at the corner of Broadway in Seoul, and I was like, there's someone in this industry that I can look up to that is like me. There's someone who is bold and confident and living in his truth in such a way that I was like, yeah, he is an idea that I can be something in this industry.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So that must have been quite a thrill for you to meet and get to know him.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah. He came out on tour and was our Lola in Pittsburgh in his hometown, and we spent a lot of time together that week, and I got to watch him work, and, like, I literally sat at his feet all week, and I was just like, this is crazy. And now I'm just like, I'll call her, text them sometimes. Like, hey, Billy Porter.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Isn't that crazy? Like, the names that we get in our phone now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I scroll through sometimes, and, you know, it's like, I know this person, that famous person.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

They're on TV right now, and I could just text them.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Oh, it never fails that. Like, the other day, I did or I did press while we were at the Muni, and I got in the truck, and Brendon Urie, Panic at the Disco was on, and. And he was one of my Charlies on Broadway. And it never fails that, like, I'll get into an Uber or get into it. And he's, like, playing, and I was like, of course I'm going to do press, and here's Panic at the Disco playing. But I'm like, I can just call him sometimes. Like, hey, Brendan, how are you today? What's going on? Like, yeah, and he actually had me, like, perform with him at Madison Square Garden, which is like, hello.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Mind blowing.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Yeah. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

That's awesome. That's awesome. And number four, what lesson or character trait in yourself have took you the longest to work on? Or something you're still working on now?

J. Harrison Ghee:

It sounds crazy, but, like, I'm still working on living out loud. Like, there are times I get dressed in the morning and I'm like, this outfit looks ridiculous. That's how I feel today. Here we go. I know, like, I know that there will be looks. I know that there will be whatever. But I also know that, like, people need to see all kinds of representation. And, like, I love to joke about, like, yes, I'm a six' four black man wearing a dress today.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Get into it. But it's something that it's taken me a while to carry confidently. And even still as I do it, sometimes I'm aware too much of eyes on me or. So it's definitely something that I'm aware of. And I'm trying to be like, well, whatever, and just being myself genuinely.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I think that's something we're all working on every day. Just trying. Yeah. All right, last. Last one. What is the best advice that you've received?

J. Harrison Ghee:

I think it would have to be, oh, God. From my mother about the gift that I was given and just respecting that it's not about me and giving of it freely and genuinely and wholeheartedly because it really isn't about me. There are powers greater. I didn't create the gift. It was given to me for a reason. I'm just the vessel.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. But thank you so much.

J. Harrison Ghee:

Thank you.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, that about does it for this episode, I'm your host, Patrick Oliver Jones, in charge of writing, editing, and producing this podcast. Background music is from John Bartman and the theme song that was created by me. Be sure to join me next time. As we go into the 10th and and final conversation in this special series, it's a look back at my time with the one and only Lynn Nott.