INTRO: There are so many things I take for granted as an actor without even thinking twice. Learning a song, catching a cue, responding to a line, adjusting to a shift in blocking. Live theater depends so heavily on sound, sight, timing, and movement that it’s easy to forget how much of it assumes a certain kind of body and ability. And yet, there are artists who don’t fit that assumption at all—and instead of stepping away, they challenge it, reshape it, and demand to be included on their own terms. That kind of persistence carries a different motivation, and is something that requires a strength and determinations few of us have.

That’s why my conversation with John McGinty back in 2018 has stayed with me ever since. You see, John is deaf and lost his hearing at a young age. And so from the moment I wanted to bring John on the podcast, I knew it would be different kind of interview. So I asked if we could chat first to both introduce ourselves and discuss the plan for an interview. And it ended up being the kind of phone call most of us aren’t used to. You see, I called into service where I spoke to an ASL interpreter, who was then on video chat with John so he could understand what I was saying. And he would then answer back through the interpreter, who would in turn tell me what he said. It may sound like a complicated setup, but actually, I was surprised how easy it went.

And so, when John agreed to come on the podcast, it mattered that he be both seen and heard. So I paid for an ASL interpreter to be there with us to facilitate the conversation. Despite the fact that this podcast was making no money at the time, that choice felt essential, not optional. And I made sure to video the whole thing, so that our conversation would be available to both hearing and non-hearing followers of this podcast, making it the very first video episode I ever did. The result…was a deeply moving and personal conversation about losing his hearing and the challenges it brings to both auditioning and performing. We also explore how he made his Broadway debut in the revival of Children of a Lesser God, and about being the first deaf actor to play Quasimodo in The Hunchback of Notre Dame at Sacramento Music Circus. John has built a career that isn’t defined by limitation, but rather by commitment—the kind that asks for more from this industry and keeps pushing those boundaries to expand.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

John, thank you so much for being here.

John McGinty:

Thank you for having me.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So I wanted to just start off with understanding and knowing what got you into performing. What was it that led you into theater?

John McGinty:

You want the long version or the short one?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, we have plenty of time.

John McGinty:

I'll be brief. Okay. So I am originally from Cleveland, Ohio, and I grew up in a hearing family and they were very business oriented. It was very important to go to a good school. And I went to undergrad. I got a finance degree and I never really imagined that I wanted to be an actor. But I was inspired. Going back in time a little bit.

John McGinty:

The first clear memory I have was on a trip to London. I went to see the musical Phantom of the Opera.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And how old were you then?

John McGinty:

Gosh, maybe like nine. Nine or ten. I was a little kid. But back then there were no interpreters for the theater. There were no captions. And so I went to see the show with my grandma and the visual aspects of the storytelling made it really clear to me and I really enjoyed the show. And I guess a light bulb went off in my head and I thought, wow, this is really something special. I kind of forgot about it for some years, but I went to boarding school and I was kind of athletic.

John McGinty:

I played soccer. I was never really interested in being part of the drama club or anything. That wasn't my thing, but. But the drama teacher tried to coax me to audition for the production of Alice in Wonderland that they were doing. And I thought, that's definitely not for me. I'm a soccer player. But she didn't give up. And so I auditioned and I got cast as the White Rabbit.

John McGinty:

One thing that really stands out about that experience for me was it really gave me a lot of self confidence and it connected back to that light bulb moment at the Phantom of the Opera. And I thought, you know what? I really like theater, I like doing this. But I moved on. I went to college, I majored in finance, but after that I went to work at Deaf west and I was in Pittman work at Deaf west in la. And from then on, the rest is history.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

We can expand a little bit about how you got to Deaf west, going from finance degree to Deaf West.

John McGinty:

To be honest with you, I think the degree in finance, I mean, I kind of did it for my dad, honestly. Sorry, mom and dad, if you're watching. I love you, dad. I just at the same time, I do love business and math and all that was interesting to me. I did an internship in finance, but sitting at a desk from 9 to 5 in front of a computer screen just, I realized, wasn't my passion. It's not what made me excited when I woke up in the morning. So. And so Deaf west, when that came up and I had to wake up in the morning to go to rehearsal, I was a different person.

John McGinty:

So it was really a life changing experience.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So theater tapped into a part of you that finance did not? Absolutely. And so once you started with Deaf west, was that you kind of putting your foot in the water or did you dive in and said were going for it?

John McGinty:

I'd say, yeah, it was a first toe in the water to make sure that it was something that I really loved. Because like I said, I never really dreamed of being a performer. I didn't know what that would even look like, especially as a deaf actor. You know, at that time, opportunities were much more limited for deaf actors. And I was new and sort of fledgling in all of this, but that was the first time I was able to work alongside deaf and hearing cast in a musical. And after that production, I had to go back to Boston, finish my degree and graduate. And then I moved to New York City. I got here and I started teaching sign language.

John McGinty:

I had a number of odd jobs and then I went back to school. I went to grad school in nyu. I got a master's degree in performing arts administration in 2013. Because I thought, well, that's sort of the happy marriage of business and theater and.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

True, true. And were you still thinking at this time that it would just be. You'd stick to the business end and maybe act every now and then?

John McGinty:

Yeah, that's kind of what I thought. I mean, I had this in my back pocket. I wanted something safe to fall back on and it was there. So.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

No, it's interesting as you say this because fan of the Opera was my first big, like, introduction. I'd been doing musicals and church choir and stuff like that. Found the opera is what just like got me into theater. And that's what I. That's when I knew I want to do that. And I also. I also love finance, love numbers, because I was always good at math and, you know, did all the honors math, so.

John McGinty:

Really?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yes. So. So. So what's interesting, as you tell your story, I relate to it a lot. And I got a backup degree.

John McGinty:

Did you. So did you get a degree in finance?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I got it in mass communication. So journalism, broadcasting was actually the. The fallback degree that I got.

John McGinty:

That's awesome.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. So. So. So yeah, I. I kind of went through that same process of dipping my toe and being like, I love theater, but I don't know if I can make a living in theater.

John McGinty:

Right. That fear of the lack of security and you never know what's coming next. I encourage everyone, especially people in the younger generation, do that, get a degree, because you never know what's going to happen. Why not have that to fall back on?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Exactly, exactly. Because I think as actors, we don't just need to know all the ins and outs of what it means to act. We need to know the ins and outs of life, of different businesses, of different careers and different walks of life. And I think that that brings. That's what we can bring onto the stage as well.

John McGinty:

I agree. Exactly.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So what was it that brought you from Deaf west to New York?

John McGinty:

So I graduated from Northeastern University in 2009 after doing this show at Deaf west. And I was offered an off off off Broadway show, a small theater with a fantastic director named Kim Weald, who I am eternally grateful to. I mean, if it weren't for her, honestly, I don't know if I would have moved to New York. I think, you know, my family had come to New York a lot when I was a kid, and seeing like the Empire State Building made me think, I want to live there. I saw Broadway shows, I saw the Lion King. I just always felt like New York was the place to be. And fast forward, I'm moving here and I thought, let me try this and see what happens.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Did you give yourself like, I'll be here six months or I'll do this show and see where it goes?

John McGinty:

I don't know. I kind of knew when I was moving that I was gonna stay for a while. I didn't know what work would look like, but I figured, we'll figure something else out.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And so you mentioned that being deaf and wasn't a lot of opportunities for actors who were deaf. And as you mentioned, like, shows didn't have interpreters. And so how have you seen from the time when you started Deaf west until now, how have you seen that progression?

John McGinty:

That's a great question from my point of view. So I was raised in a hearing family in the hearing community, and so resources were fairly limited. And my knowledge of the deaf community and especially the deaf talent community was very limited. So there were a lot of assumptions made. And I call myself a late bloomer. And in terms of my connection to the deaf community, because I didn't really get into the deaf world until a bit later. And that kind of overlaps with My experience in theater, too, because I think for actors in general, there are not that many opportunities. But I'm an actor, and I'm deaf.

John McGinty:

And just like you, I'm an actor. All actors kind of go through that journey of trying to find the right opportunities. But I don't think being deaf is something that. I didn't think it was something that would limit me. I just realized after speaking with members of the deaf community that it was like just another attribute.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It basically just put you on the same path, but just a different way to get there.

John McGinty:

Yeah, it was just a different way of getting there. I think once I changed my attitude about the fact that opportunities might be limited and I thought, well, I could create my own opportunities, my mind opened and doors opened. I think education was a key element of that, because there are a lot of people who never worked with deaf actors before.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right, exactly.

John McGinty:

So figuring out how to collaborate with writers and producers and casting directors has been key. Just letting them know that I'm deaf and I'm just another person in the. In the industry, and there's no real difference.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Exactly. And it sounds like from your story that it was just as much people reaching out to you and bringing you in as you going toward theater.

John McGinty:

Exactly. Yeah, totally. I've got one great little anecdote. You know the musical the Hunchback of Notre Dame, Right? Yeah. So they did a production of the musical with a completely hearing cast. A hearing actor played Quasimodo based on the character in the Victor Hugo novel. And I reached out to my representation, my team, and said, you know, I want to audition for the next production. And they said, well, you don't sing.

John McGinty:

And I said, that's besides the point. This character's deaf. And so I just kind of went to the audition, I brought what I could do into the room and talked with them about how we could make this work and how it could work with their vision.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So you really had to open their eyes and kind of broaden their horizons as to what Quasimodo could be.

John McGinty:

Yeah. And the best part of all of it was, after that job, two other deaf actors have had the opportunity to play the role. So the point is, it takes one person to make that change. It could be you. It could be. You know what I mean?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right. Yeah. Cause I watched your acting reel that you had of different clips you had. So I saw. Is that the Quasimodo that you're talking about? That's in that clip? Yeah. Yep.

John McGinty:

I think it's really important that everyone, every community has to no matter what community you're a part of, you have to advocate for yourself and be fearless.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Absolutely. Absolutely. And so, kind of fast forwarding a bit. You got this off off Broadway show, and then you said, you know what? I'm gonna stay here. I'm gonna be gonna go for this. What was the next show or two like that made you think? Yes, I made the right decision.

John McGinty:

Okay. So after that, off, off, off show, I went back to teaching full time. I was teaching American Sign Language and decided that, you know, after the first two years in New York, I said, you know what? That's not working for me. Let me go back to grad school. So I went to nyu, and immediately after graduation, I got an offer to do a show at the Guthrie in Minneapolis. I was doing a production of Tribes there. And at that moment I realized, okay, you know what? I'm a working actor. Because after that, I mean, it wasn't for forever, but after that, you know, when it rains, it pours, they say, and sometimes there are dry spells, but it was pouring for a while.

John McGinty:

So I was like, this is awesome. Let me ride this wave for, like, the next two years. And then it kind of got dead. And after that. And that's when I realized, you know, this is an actor's life. This is what all actors go through. You know, when you're not working, you can create something else for yourself.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, those breaks in our job, that's. That's when we really find out if we're really committed, if we really want to do this. But it's also, I think that's when we have to really address our own fears and whatever. Whatever's holding us back. We have to address what it is that. That holds us back, that keeps us from pushing forward. Because like you said, it can be months in between those jobs, and you're just auditioning and auditioning and nothing comes.

John McGinty:

Yeah, there are those periods. I mean, I'm sure there are a zillion moments that I've said, you know, I want to give up. I can't do this anymore. But there's always this little glimmer of hope inside, and it just tells you, you know, you can't really give up, so you just gotta keep going. And then, you know, something comes up, right? Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Cause one of my moments was on a cruise ship. So I'm performing. It's on a Disney cruise ship. And I'm playing Jafar. So it was great, good times. But in the middle of my cabin, I'm going, is this all it's gonna be, and what am I gonna do when this is done? And I thought, maybe I'll just move to Florida. Cause I had lived in Orlando before. I'll just do it again.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So I went through a whole scenario of what if maybe this isn't, you.

John McGinty:

Know, what's your dream role? I'm just curious. Vinach Dafar, right?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, I mean.

John McGinty:

I mean, I don't mean to turn the tables on you. I know it's your interview, it's your show, but.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

No, that's fine.

John McGinty:

Just curious.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Like, for me, one of my favorite shows is man of La Mancha. And playing Don Quixote, I've gotten a chance to do him once. But if that's a role that I would love to do here in New York, I've done it regionally, but I would love to do it in New York. I feel like a revival's coming soon, so maybe.

John McGinty:

I believe you can do it. It'll be you.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right? So that would be one of the roles. But on my bucket list is also Billy Flynn in Chicago. But that's. That's probably won't happen here because, you know, they need. They need.

John McGinty:

Don't say that. You shouldn't doubt yourself.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

They're hiring people like Jerry Springer and Huey Lewis to do it.

John McGinty:

Huey so much. I love it. I love it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I know. I know.

John McGinty:

If you put the doubts out there in the world, then they won't. Things won't happen. If you put positive things out there, they come true.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I tell myself that. And then four months go by without a job, and it's so. Yeah, it's a constant. Yeah, it's a constant back and forth.

John McGinty:

No, I totally get it. I get it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And so after that wave of a year or two of work, and then you said you hit a dry spell after that.

John McGinty:

Yeah. So I did Tribes at three different theaters. And then suddenly there wasn't work. I mean, there were a few little workshops here or there for new musicals. There were a lot of workshops actually going on at that time. But until Hunchback, that was the next time things really picked up. I did two productions of Hunchback, and that led me to a workshop of a revival of Children of a Lesser God, which ultimately went to Broadway. And so that was on and off for about a year.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So did someone see you at Hunchback or part of the creative team?

John McGinty:

I don't know. Honestly, I don't know the backstory, how that came to be, because I didn't formally audition. But I got a call saying Are you available to do this reading? And interesting. And it was funny because I got two offers. A reading for Children of a Lesser God here in New York. But, you know, at the time there was no promise that it was moving anywhere.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right.

John McGinty:

Or I could play Hamlet in Hamlet, a production that was actually happening, a regional production, and I had to make that call.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Don't you love it when that happens? Like, you go months without work and all of a sudden three things come at once. It's like, can we spread these out so I could do them all?

John McGinty:

I know, right? And it just. I had this moment of, oh, God, what do I do? I mean, Hamlet is a dream role, but at the same time, this could go to Broadway. So if I don't get on now and I decided not to do Hamlet, I did the reading of Children of Lesser God, and then I heard nothing.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right.

John McGinty:

And I thought, oh, no, I made the wrong choice.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So that reading was basically just a call and an offer. Hey, hey, come read with us.

John McGinty:

That's all it was. Yeah. Okay. Just come ready. Nothing formal. It's just gonna be a two day little thing.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah.

John McGinty:

So I did the reading, and I guess three months later, I had still heard nothing. And I really was like, shoot, I could have done Hamlet. I could have been Hamlet. And then four months went by and there was another workshop. And I thought, okay, well, maybe something's happening here.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah.

John McGinty:

So there's the possibility. There's rumblings. And the next. After the next workshop, I heard that there was gonna be a regional production in the Berkshires.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh, okay.

John McGinty:

Like a pre Broadway tryout, they were calling it. But after that, I heard nothing for a while. And I thought, oh, no, you know what? This is it. I'm done. I'm done.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Did you ever find out why there were so many gaps and why it took so long? I mean, Broadway shows take a long time anyway. But did you find out their process?

John McGinty:

No, no, honestly. And I'll probably never know what happened behind those closed doors, behind the scenes. I'm so grateful, though, and so thankful that I trusted my gut because I did the production in the Berkshires and then we went to Broadway.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Describe what that was like to finally realize you were going to be on Broadway.

John McGinty:

So I was living on the Upper west side at the time in like this tiny, tiny apartment, like 400 square feet, something ridiculous. And I was like, hit a mat or almost. Okay, so not that bad, maybe not that small, but like, I was sitting there with bedhead in my apartment on my laptop, and I get an email. And the subject was Broadway first offer. And I screamed. I think I like threw my laptop in the air. I was so excited. I was like bouncing up and down.

John McGinty:

It was so thrilling and such a huge honor and one of the most humbling experiences I've ever had. I learned so much during that, not just as an actor, but as a human being.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Absolutely, absolutely. And this is something that I'm curious about. It's a two part question. We'll do the first part. As an actor, as a deaf person, what has been your challenges in kind of getting yourself out there and being an actor?

John McGinty:

I don't know. I don't really necessarily look at things as challenges. I just kind of say there are sometimes roadblocks, but you can overcome these things. And it just takes a little bit of education, a little bit of effort, because I don't let my deafness limit me. I don't want that.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So it doesn't sound like you have.

John McGinty:

Well, I mean, I think it's important. I think as a person who happens to be deaf, I think my job is not only to self advocate, but to advocate for the younger generation of deaf people who are up and coming because I don't want them to go through the same struggles and frustrations that I've had to because it's a waste of time. So I think it's our collective job as a community to keep making progress and keep moving things forward. So I think everyone has limits and obstacles they have to overcome.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Absolutely. Yeah. It doesn't matter who we are.

John McGinty:

Yeah. So right now in the artistic community, I think we are making baby steps. The more that we're becoming aware of need for diversity and inclusion.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right.

John McGinty:

I don't just go in for deaf roles anymore. Sometimes I get seen for hearing roles and that's a great step forward.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Absolutely. And I think that no matter what community, whether it's. Whether you're black, whether you're gay, to go in for roles that aren't specific, even gender that aren't specific, and you can go for a role that just happens to be black, happens to be deaf, happens to be whatever it is.

John McGinty:

What I'll say, though, it's important to emphasize the difference between knowing, like, oh, well, I could play anything. There is a caveat. If it's a deaf character, I would not say to a hearing person, oh, well, maybe you could try that. Try go for that. No, you lose a lot of authenticity when that happens.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

That makes sense.

John McGinty:

If the role is written for a deaf act, it should be played by A deaf or hard of hearing actor. There's a hashtag that's trending deaf talent. And it's all about this movement right now. Right.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And I think that's going to be the same if it's written for a black actor. If it's written for, you know, then I, I, I think there's some roles that, that can be fluid, but there's certain roles that I think have to be portrayed by someone who understands that experience.

John McGinty:

You'd be surprised, though. You'd be amazed. Even in 2018, we still have issues where people don't get that things are.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

The way they've been and people want to keep it that way. That, yeah. So the second part of that question, and this is something I'm curious. How have you found a way that your deafness has actually helped you as an actor that has boosted you, that has pushed you forward in ways that you may not have otherwise?

John McGinty:

I mean, being deaf has many advantages. We call it deaf gain as opposed to hearing loss. Right. I have a unique story to tell. Therefore, there are so many positive contributions I can make to the artistic community.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Whenever I look at you as an actor because you're using your body and your hands, to me, that's, that's, you've tapped into something that I don't personally know. I'm also not a dancer. I think dancers have that ability too, of using their body. But I just wonder if something like that enables you to express things in a different or just more coherent way that maybe even I can't. Perhaps.

John McGinty:

Perhaps. Yeah. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I mean, and that's one reason why I was so grateful and so excited to have you here, is because, as you said, you have a different experience, you have a different story to tell. And so for me, and I think it's easy for anyone in the hearing world to be, to look at and be like, oh, that's an impediment, or that's a challenge, or that's this or that, that. And so I wanted to hear from someone directly as far as, like, is it really, is, you know, is it a disability, all this?

John McGinty:

Yeah, it's interesting. The word disability gets thrown around, Right. And I think it's different for everyone how people choose to identify. I don't consider myself a person with a disability. I don't. I think deaf culture is something very different. It doesn't mean that all deaf people identify the same way. But I appreciate you saying that as, as far as, you know, putting the terminology out there in the discussion, because I remember, like, I said before, we still have way a ways to go in terms of education because there are a lot of assumptions people make.

John McGinty:

People still call me hearing impaired. When I see that, I cringe. It's just the words hearing impaired.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right.

John McGinty:

Boil my blood. So it's part of life, though, and it's part of my job is that education component.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Because just as we were talking and getting to know each other before this interview, I had said, deaf actor versus an actor who is deaf. And you helped me realize that distinction as well. For you, what does that distinction mean?

John McGinty:

Well, for me, I remember I was doing an interview a while back, and I was asked, what's it like being a deaf actor? And I thought, you're asking me what it's like to act as a deaf person. Is that what you're asking? Or like to play a deaf role? I think that's. That's kind of limiting as an actor, and that's different. I'm just an actor. If I say I'm just an actor without having to say that I'm deaf, then, like, I don't know, where does that. Why is it so important to emphasize the deaf part? Right, right. So what?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Because we don't. I don't have the moniker hearing actor.

John McGinty:

Right, right. I'm an actor. You're an actor. I'm an actor who just happens to be deaf.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Exactly. And that gets me to Children of a Lesser God, which is one of the main themes of it, is about that struggle between hearing and the deaf communities. And one of its themes is speaking versus signing. And that was something that was. The play was written in the 70s, and do you see the themes that it had then still relevant to today?

John McGinty:

Well, first of all, I think the play has a lot to do with human connection, not even just in terms of the deafness and hearing.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right. That's one factor, one theme of the show.

John McGinty:

Right, of course, of course. But to answer your question, in terms of themes of the show, I think there are a few that still do come up. Like, for example, schools for the deaf today. Oftentimes hearing teachers who don't know sign language are still teaching in those institutions. So deaf children and hard of hearing children are growing up with language models that aren't native. Like, so they're not really learning their language firsthand, and they're not getting access to direct education, and it's an impediment to their education and their language acquisition. So I think that's a theme in Children of a Lesser God. My character was fighting for deaf Students to have equal rights to education, have deaf people teaching deaf children, because it makes a big difference, and it's still relevant today.

John McGinty:

Sometimes in situations with interpreters, where interpreters are required for access. Even still today, we get people who push back and say, oh, well, we don't need an interpreter. We don't have to provide an interpreter, because whatever. It's a right. It's my right. I mean, granted, things have definitely gotten better. Technology has revolutionized.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right.

John McGinty:

Just the space of communication for deaf people.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

But, yeah, because whenever we had our first phone call, and this was something, of course, I knew nothing about, when we had our first phone call, I. Let's see, you called through a service that. It's like a video on your end of an interpreter signing.

John McGinty:

An interpreter on a screen. Right.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Signing what I'm saying to you. And then they would answer back, and so I would hear their voice. Hear. Yeah. So it's exactly the fact that that kind of technology is. It's wonderful to be far out.

John McGinty:

Right, Right. It's amazing.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And so what was the rehearsal process? Because, as you said, it was a blending of those who were deaf and hearing in the rehearsal process for children. How did that work? I assume you had interpreters and the like in the room with you there.

John McGinty:

Oh, yeah, we definitely did. Not only did we have an interpreter, we also had a director of Artistic Sign Language, which we sometimes call a DASL or a dasl, and they serve a consulting role because they are the deaf eyes in the room. They have a theater background. They understand plays and text, and they provide a deaf perspective to the production, to the director, and to the whole production in terms of adjusting blocking, in terms of adjusting line translations. I'm an actor. I can't see from the outside if my translation's working, and the director can't necessarily give me that feedback. So having a director of Artistic Sign Language in the room is invaluable because it makes the world of the play as authentic as possible. If you're in the real world, if you're having a conversation with a deaf person, the way that you sign is maybe one thing, but that might not be what it looks like on stage.

John McGinty:

And if the role calls for somebody who's a fluent signer, you need to have a fluent signer. So a director of Artistic Sign Language can give their feedback and the training that they provide to make the production look as it should.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right.

John McGinty:

One thing I loved was during rehearsal when we tried to interact with each other without the help of interpreters. Sometimes we typed back and forth with each other on our phone. Sometimes we wrote back and forth with each other with a pen and paper. That kind of way of forging human connection. That was really awesome, too.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah.

John McGinty:

But with all due respect and love for interpreters, but, like, give us our space and we can all connect.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Yeah. And in fact, there are moments in the show where sign isn't interpreted and we as the audience are just. We're there to just see the connection and see communication. Even though we can't understand the exact words, we can still just see how people are connecting. How was Children of a Lesser God different in some way? Was it. Yes. Being on Broadway had its own bigness, but was there a difference in that production or doing that role than from other shows you've been in?

John McGinty:

I think this role is very different than anything I'd done because as John, as myself, I tend to be very reserved. I'm kind of. I don't want. I live sort of gently and not so boldly the way Oren does. And it taught me a lot about myself. It taught me about the importance of speaking up and fighting for what you believe in.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, I can certainly say, listening to your story, that you have Oren elements throughout your life of pushing and putting yourself out there.

John McGinty:

I do, yeah. And if it wasn't for that, I don't know if I would be getting what I needed if I wasn't fighting for it. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

You'd still be desk crunching numbers.

John McGinty:

Well, maybe, yeah. I mean, before I played Orin, the roles I typically played were very meek characters and kind of, you know, in that woe is me realm. But this was like something really different and a new opportunity. So I was very, very grateful to have had that experience.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Have you found that roles written for a deaf person tend to be that. That's reserved. Meek.

John McGinty:

Not all of them. I wouldn't say all of them. But oftentimes when there's a deaf roll, I can tell when it's written by a hearing person, it's pretty clear when it's not written by a deaf person, because that hearing lens on a deaf character is very, very clear. I'm not saying that there aren't good plays and good roles out there. Like Tribes, for example. Tribes is written by a hearing playwright. And one thing I love about Nina Reen, who wrote the play, is that in the script, she. Like a footnote or something, she has specified that the role must be played by a deaf actor.

John McGinty:

There's a moment in the play, however, that always flummoxes me, the deaf character is speaking, and the batteries on his hearing aids suddenly die, and instantly his speech degrades in a moment, in an instant. And to me, as a deaf person, I thought, well, that's very odd. I mean, not that what I'm saying is the gospel, but when my hearing aid batteries die, I think my speech is the same. I've asked hearing people, does my voice sound very different when my hearing aids are off and they tell me that I sound the same? So that moment in a play doesn't ring true. Oh, so deaf and hard of hearing playwrights. If you're out there watching or listening to this, please, we need your voices. We need your work, because it's so important. All of us, myself included, we have unique stories to tell.

John McGinty:

And those stories, stories by deaf people, need to really see the light of day.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, and I think that you bring up a good point because certainly there's whether it's the MeToo movement and writing for that moment, or whether it's black actors and actresses coming, you know, and writing for their experience. I think whatever background and experience we come from, it's important to have people familiar with and from those communities expressing those ideas.

John McGinty:

Exactly.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And so have you thought about writing anything yourself? Has that been in the back of your mind?

John McGinty:

Okay, so never say never, right? A couple of times I've tried. I just wrote pilot like, three weeks ago.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Okay.

John McGinty:

I was running, so I went for a run and I had this idea. Oh, this brilliant idea. I've got inspiration. I'm going to run home. Thirty minutes later, I had written something out. The next day I read it. I was like, oh, my God, this is terrible. I chucked it.

John McGinty:

I started laying like garbage. But I tried, right. And, you know, maybe I'll try something else.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, who knows? It could be your own story at some point. Who knows?

John McGinty:

Who knows?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. So you had mentioned growing up in hearing family, and I assume that you've known those who grew up in a deaf family. What is that difference? Like, as far as in communication or. I assume the experience is much different as well.

John McGinty:

Well, I mean, every family is different.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

This is true. Very true.

John McGinty:

So it's like apples and oranges. I can't say my family is completely different because they were hearing. I don't know.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right.

John McGinty:

All I can tell you is what my experience.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I certainly don't mean to have you speak for the entire deaf community. I more just am curious about your own experience with that.

John McGinty:

So, in my family, well, I was born hearing, and I Lost my hearing when I was a year old, so immediately my parents. Thank God for that. My parents decided to start learning some sign language, and that was our primary mode of communication. Later, I learned to speak and went to a school that used that philosophy. But my family still today uses sign language to communicate to varying levels. Yeah. And to me, that has been so critical.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I bet. And you mentioned a philosophy of learning to speak. There. There is that tug of war between pushing to speak and pushing to just use sign language. Am I understanding that correctly?

John McGinty:

I personally believe in the bilingual bicultural philosophy. I think the deaf field of deaf education is fraught right now, but I think it ultimately comes down to what is best for each individual student. There's no one size fits all. What's best for you is what's best for you. It's like, like, for example, some people grow up with cochlear implants and people assume, oh, that means your parents decided that you needed to be a certain way. I mean, I decided to get a cochlear implant myself because that's what I believed was best for me. Right, you know.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right, Exactly. Yeah. Because as you said, each experience, each person is different and they need to live their own life. And so going forward as an actor, you know, children never. Lister, God, closed or where. Where would you like to go? Where would you like to see yourself as an actor? Go from here.

John McGinty:

I want to play Hamlet.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh, that's right. That's right.

John McGinty:

You got to go back full circle. I never got to do that and.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Be like, do it again.

John McGinty:

Right. Please, please. I actually, I. I want to try to expand my resume. I want to go into film and TV some more. I think I'd like to try that.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

In your acting wheel. I saw that one of the clips that you did was. Had captions and another of the clips that you did, there was no caption for the sign language. Was that a show exclusively? Maybe meant for the deaf community? Because there was no subtitles under the sign. Which.

John McGinty:

Oh, God, this is embarrassing. I can't remember which clip it is. In my rehearsal, it was.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

You remember, it sounded like you were coming in through a door and having an argument, and then it showed another clip of you.

John McGinty:

Oh, sign. Right. So Sign was a short film that was written by a phenomenal team. Andrew Keenan Bolger and Adam Wachter. Adam and Andrew kind of put together this 15 minute short film and it has a score, a beautiful score, but no audible dialogue. So. So you see us communicating in sign language and there are scenes where it looks like people are speaking, but you never know what anyone's saying except for people in the audience who can understand sign language or I guess, lip read.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right, Right. And so even the hearing, the hearing people spoke, but you couldn't hear them. You just saw their lips moving. What an interesting. And what was the basic story of that 15 minute film?

John McGinty:

The film follows a couple, two gay men in their relationship. How they meet, how they fall in love. You bear witness to their journeys over the course of several months and the obstacles that they encounter regarding communication and whatnot, how they interact with each other's families. I don't want to give away too much of the movie. I think people should watch it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And it's called Sign.

John McGinty:

I believe the website is signed signthefilm.com if you want to watch it, sign the film dot com.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I'll put that in the show notes so people can click to that. And so with acting, this is something that I just happened to think of. As you were speaking, do you speak? Do you communicate differently when you know it's just for deaf community or a hearing audience, does that influence how you communicate in any way?

John McGinty:

It really depends on the role, not the audience.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Okay.

John McGinty:

I mean, I think most of the roles I've played, the characters do speak. There are others who sign. Some sign and speak at the same time, which is not my favorite. They use what we call SimCom. Simultaneous communication. That's another thing that you see on stage in Children of a Lesser God. I'm not saying it's impossible or unachievable. It's just very difficult because anytime you try to use two languages at the same time, one of them's gonna suffer because it's like rubbing your belly and patting your head.

John McGinty:

You can't really do both perfectly. So especially in musicals where they're hearing actors who have to sing, dance and sign at the same time, gosh, those are especially challenging. And you have to be careful because anytime you're using language to communicate something to the audience, it has to be clear. And you don't want to compromise that.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Absolutely. And you've done mostly plays, but Hunchback itself was a musical. Do you want to do more musical or do you want to. As you say, I do. Yeah, I bet, I bet. What if you could, like, go into an audition for any musical? What, what kind of musical? What would that be?

John McGinty:

Any. Any musical?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, if you have like, you know, you asked my dream role, what would be like a dream musical for you?

John McGinty:

Well, okay, so in terms of Unoriginal roles. I would love to play Hamlet. I would love to do the last five years that we're talking about music.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh, right, yeah.

John McGinty:

But in terms of things that haven't been written yet, that's what I really want to do. I want to do something original. I'd love to originate something.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah.

John McGinty:

What that might look like, what that means, I don't know, but that's what excites me.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, I love doing the classic musicals. I think my voice and just Persona lend to that, but it's always exciting. I've done the workshops and readings and doing new work. There's something invigorating about having a slate clean to do just a new role that has no. No real boundaries. And they're trying to figure out what that role means.

John McGinty:

Yeah, that's really fantastic. So I'm at a point in my career where I. I'm terrified of doing comedy. I don't know why. It just scares me. I'm scared of it. I don't know if I'm ready yet, but maybe I should or. I don't think I'm funny at all.

John McGinty:

I don't think even my friends or family would say that I'm funny. I make jokes, I crack jokes. Nobody laughs. So I guess that's not for my thing. Maybe I won't do comedy. Well, I mean.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, I mean, they say that, you know, that the best acting comes from comedy. So, I mean, if you've done all these. If you can do Hamlet, I think you can tell a joke. That's how I see it. Eh.

John McGinty:

I don't know. I don't know if I believe that. I'll try, but I don't know. I mean, on my resume, you don't see any really major comedic roles there. Right. So.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

You know, I wonder if they're just not writing comedic roles for a deaf person because maybe they want their play or there's something to have a different message. I'm just wondering if the roles just aren't out there because of that, perhaps.

John McGinty:

I mean, hopefully people will start rethinking what they're writing, especially in terms of roles for deaf people, so we don't see these woe is me pitiful stories.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Exactly.

John McGinty:

Like, I mean, when you go out on the street, if you walk past five people, how do you know if any of them are deaf? You don't. You don't know. So I think that goes back to that education component. We have to keep doing that and letting people know that humans are human. We're all Human.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Exactly, exactly. And on that point, if you could reach out to the hearing world and be like, this is what we want you to know. What is the best way for us to acknowledge and respect you?

John McGinty:

I'm just like you. That's what I'd say. I'm just like you. I think we need to change. Change the mentality of people who want to say no all the time, shift that instead of saying no, say yes. Instead of saying why, say why not. I mean, there are these obstacles, but they're there because people are making assumptions. Really, I'm just like you.

John McGinty:

There's no difference. You and I, we're communicating right now. We were just in the elevator. We were communicating. We didn't even have an interpreter with us yet, but we were fine.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And I was scared to do my sign language that I learned.

John McGinty:

But that's my point though, is that you tried. We didn't just say, okay, I'm not gonna talk to you until we get there and there's an interpreter. We make it work. And I think other people, people around the world need to be more open minded. They need to open their hearts and, and approach things from that perspective too.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. I think that's so important. And like you said, whether no matter what kind of person you are, no matter who the other individual is, it's about connecting with them and opening yourself up to their story, to their experience, and realizing a connection can be made. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. What would you say is the. As we wrap up here, what would you say is the best advice that you've received and how did you implement that in your life?

John McGinty:

I have learned that sometimes you need to shit in the soil if you want to grow something. Right? I mean, sometimes your worst days are actually your best days. So when life is a mess and I go home or whatever and I'm feeling down, I say, you know what? I can learn something from this. I don't obsess about things because I don't want to have that awful spiral that you can have.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

That spiral is a killer. I've been there myself. You start with one little bad audition or whatever it is, and then I am one thing. And then you're going back five years ago when you messed that other thing up and you just. Yeah, it can be a right.

John McGinty:

And not only that, but as actors, when we go in to auditions or go out to perform, we worry so much about what other people are thinking, what the people behind the table are thinking, what critics are thinking. You have to let go of that and trust Yourself. Be truthful to yourself. If people don't like it, too bad. You need to bring your best self to everything you do.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, that was something that I. Because I've been here 10 years now, and over the years, it's something I had to learn myself. Is that okay, this is what I bring into the room. This is what I'm good at, and this is who I am. And so that pared down all the auditions that I really need to go for, because, okay, yes, I could be that person, but someone else is going to do it better, and I need to stick with the uniqueness that I bring into the room.

John McGinty:

When you go into auditions, do you take a lot of notes? Do you bring, like, track or log your auditions? Like, do you go after you've auditioned? Do you say, like, oh, this went well. This could have been better. I've.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I've heard those people talk about the log. But I did it for a time, but then I eventually grew out of that. And for me, each audition, I definitely prepare for that audition and certainly put all my in and take notes for that. But once the audition is done, I put that paper away, those sides, and move on to the next one because I. It's so easy, as you know, it's so easy to hold on to auditions is hold on to what? If I just done that, maybe. Maybe they would have liked me. Maybe they would have.

John McGinty:

Yeah. You know what's interesting? I mean, you might not agree with this statement, but for me, as an actor, you talked about, like, how hard it is to let go or how easy it is to hold on to things, but I don't know if I necessarily, like, obsess about things that I don't get. But sometimes when I go in and have no expectations, those are the times I do best, and those are often the offers that I get. Does that happen to you?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh. Oh, yes. I'll go into a room and I.

John McGinty:

Isn't that weird?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Okay. For example, I just went in for an audition. I knew the director, the music director, the artistic director, loved them all, worked with them all, didn't get it. But then I go in for one, and it's kind of like it was all right. I don't know. I didn't get a good vibe from the room. I don't know.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And then 20 minutes later, they call, and I booked it off of one audition, mind you. So you really never know for sure. Yeah. Because.

John McGinty:

Yeah, that's so interesting.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, it is really interesting. Whenever I get a chance to sit down with casting directors or even directors. What they're going through behind that table is a completely different world from what we're going through. I assume that you find the same thing.

John McGinty:

Oh, please. Yeah, of course.