Bret Shuford:

You have to kind of be willing to let life be life, and also career wise, understand that the universe is abundant and there will be more jobs. There's always more jobs.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Hello, and thank you for joining me on another episode of the podcast. I hope you're doing well. For me, it has been, rehearsal time. We're nearing the end, and so we're starting to run the show over and over again. Just getting it in our bodies, still working on some of the characterizations. And for me, there's still a few speeches that are still being paraphrased a bit too much. But, we're kind of in that in between phase right now. We've gone through all the blocking.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I pretty much know all my lines and, and the music's coming along. That mean, the show is in a great shape right now. But it's it's kind of the two steps forward, three steps back where it's some scenes are are really spot on, and and I really feel like I'm connecting and others are It's a bit more of a struggle, and I'm still trying to kinda find my way through them. And that's when that little voice, that little critic inside of us that that likes to throw some doubts and fears our way and kinda get, you know, put some roadblocks in the way of our performance. And I think that's something that each of us in our own way deal with, that little something. And today's guest, Brett Shuford, is someone who's dealt with that in his own career. And as a life coach, he also deals with that with his clients. Now as I mentioned, Brett is a Broadway Performer.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

He's been in eight Broadway shows, in fact, including Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, Beauty and the Beast, Little Mermaid, and most recently Paramore. Now later on this season, I'll be talking to the lyricist from Paramore, Jenny Stafford. So stay tuned for that episode coming out later in the season. But besides being a performer, Brett also is a director. He has produced video and content on YouTube. He has a brand Broadway Husbands that he does with, his partner, Steven, and he has Broadway Life Coach where he has clients and people like myself who have a lot of questions and just need a little bit of guidance along the way. So he is someone who stays very busy. And I'm very grateful that he took time out to talk with me today about not only his career, but also those highs and lows that we all go through.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And after the conversation, I'll be back with a few final thoughts of my own. But for now, here's Brett Shuford, Broadway actor and life coach. So you have had a kind of a wide and varied career going from actress, singer, dancer to, directing to life coaching. In that process of going through one to the other, what would you say were like those pivotal moments that said, you know what? I'm ready for this next step.

Bret Shuford:

I I I mean, I've just always been a curious person, and I think, you know, I when I accomplish something, it's always my first my first question is, okay. Now what? How can I help somebody? How can I be of service to somebody? For me, the big pivotal moment for me was getting sober. And when I got sober and went into recovery and started that process and learning a lot about myself and, helping others, you know, I realized I had a lot to to offer as a as a human being outside of my skill set, of being an actor.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Yeah. How long did you did you battle alcoholism before you kinda came to that pivotal moment of wanting to fix it?

Bret Shuford:

I was very young when I got sober. I got sober at 26. But, you know, I again, I've I always had this feeling in myself that I wasn't meeting my potential. I wasn't meeting my potential that kept coming up. Like, I know I'm capable of, like, doing more. Why can't I do it? What's what's going on? And and so I just started to kind of eliminating the things that just weren't serving me, and that was that was the big one. Yeah. And when I did, it was it was ironic.

Bret Shuford:

I don't think I don't think it's the reason, but I think there was no coincidence that I booked my first Broadway show three months after I got sober.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh, wow. Yeah. So so a direct correlation between the two almost.

Bret Shuford:

It kinda went, oh, okay. Maybe this is the right thing to do, you know. I'm gonna stick to this for a little while.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Because how would you say the alcoholism was getting in the way?

Bret Shuford:

I had you know, I would miss auditions. I would, it was an easy excuse. And I also had this general opinion, which I think a lot of people do in the business that that this business is social. And so if I'm not drinking, if I'm not going out and hanging out with people, I'm not networking, I'm not making friends, and I'm not moving my career forward. I think there's a lot of justification from people around that, and I had definitely had that fear. Oh my god. If I stop drinking, there goes my career. And then the opposite happens.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

That's so interesting how that works. We we as actors, we have all these suppositions in our brain of, well, I need to be doing this. I gotta do this. I got you know, we're we're thinking what other people need us to be doing in order to make it, and we kinda forget that we're the central ingredient that we need to focus on ourselves.

Bret Shuford:

Yeah. And I think personal care and, you know, it's not necessarily taught to us in college when you're going getting your BFA. It's like all they teach you is to get to class on you know, like, there's just a lot of of life tools that I was not gifted, and I wanted to find those things. I wanted to find a way to, like I said, meet my potential. And the minute I got sober, it opened up a whole new floodgate of possibilities, a network of people. I became more capable one day at a time because I wasn't trying to get to some thing way down the end of the line. I was just trying to get through today and and and like myself by the end of the day.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. I mean, that is one important part of the the soap sobriety journey is to you really start looking inward and, like, what do I need to do for me? How do I take better care of myself? And I think that's such I mean, as a person, just in life, no matter who you are, but especially as actors, I think we forget how much self care we need because, you know, it this is a rejection filled business. So there's there's a lot up against us, and we have to really have our minds and our hearts especially in gear so that we can take that day after day.

Bret Shuford:

Yeah. And I think one of the things I say quite often is no one's gonna do it for you. No one's gonna take care of you. But that also doesn't mean you have to do it alone. And so there's a lot of I mean, that's where the you know, I wanted to be a coach. I wanted to be somebody that could help someone who's feeling alone get through, especially the journey of being an actor because it can be very isolating at times. And, I also wanted to, you know, find my own community of people as well.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And speaking of finding a community, one of your, I guess, through lines of your career has been Disney.

Bret Shuford:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I mean, it's it's been the same for me doing Disney World and Tokyo Disney, Disney cruise ships, and then, you know, I've I've done Beauty and the Beast. So we we share that in common. And what has Disney meant to you and your career? Because you you were kind of a a Disney geek to begin with anyway. You love Disney.

Bret Shuford:

Yeah. It's kind of ridiculous. I'm 40 now, and I'm still, like, wearing Mickey shirts. But I am a huge Disney nerd, and I think, you know, part of it growing up is I think, there's a lot of gay kids that identify with the Disney story because it's always the main character's an outcast who finds their way. And I think I also had a brother who's autistic, and I think I always champion the underdog story. Mhmm. So I've always had a thing for Disney. And then, of course, pretty colors and awesome music and Sherman Brothers and all that.

Bret Shuford:

My first Broadway show was Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. Mhmm.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And I

Bret Shuford:

got to work with Richard Sherman and and and his brother. And when I the minute I got to be in a a room with him, I just cornered him and just said, tell me every Walt Disney story you have. Like, tell me everything.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Yeah. Because I've seen some of those documentaries and and the work that they did with Walt Disney himself. It it's kind of a wild journey that they were on themselves.

Bret Shuford:

Yeah. Wow.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

But that must have been quite a a thrill for you to to meet a living icon like that.

Bret Shuford:

Yes. And then right from that, my second Broadway show was Beauty and the Beast. So I I found my niche.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right.

Bret Shuford:

And and, you know, I had seen Beauty and the Beast on Broadway when I was in high school on a tech trip from Texas. And there were some moments in that too where, you know, there was this full circle moments, The girl playing Belle when I saw it at 15 came in as Belle when I was started performing. It was like this full circle moment at Sarah, you're already very and I was like, this is crazy. This is like God telling me you're in the right place. You know, it was a really cool moment.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. And what is it like working for Disney? What I

Bret Shuford:

love about Tom Schumacher and what and Disney Natural is there's a huge amount of loyalty where I don't necessarily see that in other parts of the commercial theater world at least. And, you know, he supports the people who work for him and as many like, when I ran a marathon for charity, he donated a huge amount of money to my charity donation. Like, he and, you know, and who am I? You know what I mean? Like, I'm not of all the people he's worked with, you know, but he's just he's created a really cool, I think, loyal environment among being part of a corporate entity, which there's just some things that come with that that people don't like and that I understand why people don't like the corporate part of things, but that is what it is. It's a business. It's a corporation. And I think he's really done a great job of creating a community and a and a family within those restraints constraints.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Yeah. Because as you said, Disney is much more than just what you see on stage. They they're also a a brand. People see those Mickey ears. They know exactly what that is, and and that carries with it responsibility. It carries with it a brand and image. And so everything they do has to kinda fall into that line.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I will say that working, like, at Disney World at the theme parks, the management structure definitely fell more in line to a business corporate meetings and kinda do this paperwork and that. It felt much more corporate than going to some regional theater in Saint Louis and doing a show.

Bret Shuford:

Yeah. I mean, the big difference working for Disney on Broadway between, like, the cruise ships and theme parks is that you're hired through equity. So there's a lot of things they can't really force you to do. So you're you're an independent contractor as far as Broadway goes, where I know people in the cruise ships, like, you can't leave your cabin without a certain you have to wear your pin and your thing and your hat and your, you know? So, you know, I you're not as restricted, I think.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Yeah. And there's definitely a lot of duties when it comes to, like, being on the cruise ship Right. That some of the performers had to do. Like, some of them would have to work the lines of of people wanting to get their picture taken with Jiminy Cricket or whoever. So yeah. So there's a lot of, like, very smiley and take care of the customer and make every guest happy and all that kind of thing. Do you have a great performance memory or something among Little Mermaid or Beauty and the Beast or any of the others that you did that really stuck out?

Bret Shuford:

Beauty and the Beast, when I got to go on for Lumiere the first time, was a really amazing my first time playing a lead on a in a Broadway show. And

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I I I love watching you because all of a sudden your hands went up. Yeah. And the candles. He's like, I did

Bret Shuford:

I'm remembering how to, like, flick the things and turn the gas on. I would have done that show for years. I understood why people did that show for so long. It was really a wonderful show. And, I guess one of the cool moments with Little Mermaid for me, I was on as prince Eric. I went on for prince Eric a few times, and I got to meet certain celebrities like John Travolta saw me play prince Eric and Heidi Klum. But the coolest thing was when, Roy Disney, Walt Disney's nephew came Wow. And I got to meet him.

Bret Shuford:

And I got to tell him. I was like, your uncle just is my inspiration. And I get to tell him this guy kinda gloat and, like, I just love them. And I said, would you mind signing something for me? And he said, sure. So he signed this DVD. I have this he created this archive collection, and I have the whole collection, of course. And he signed it for me, and he sent me a card. And he and the card is like, it was so wonderful to see you perform, and it has his letterhead on it.

Bret Shuford:

I still have it. And and then he passed away, like, six months later. And I just I getting to have that moment to be in a Disney show to meet Roy Disney, who was really what saved Disney animation, and Little Mermaid was at the helm of that. Doing Little Mermaid on Broadway, that was, like, a really cool moment.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Have your own little bitty small speck of a part in in in that timeline of history and getting to meet him and everything. Oh, that's that's really great. And, and and and speaking of of of family, certainly relationships and, and and that kind of thing are an important part of of our lives and can affect us as performers. You met, your husband who's also a performer. Correct? He's a dancer a ballet dancer.

Bret Shuford:

That's right. Yeah. Steven was a, principal dancer with New York City Ballet for years and then left you know, it's funny. When we started dating, I was doing Beauty and the Beast, and I was like, yeah. I I scored this dancer, and he's at city he's at Lincoln Center, and he's not in the theater, but he's in the arts. And I thought I was, like, winning. But then, Billy Elliot was casting, and they were looking for their older Billy, and they hired him. And I was like, no.

Bret Shuford:

You're you're not supposed to come over to the theater. You're supposed to stay over there. And and but he loved it. This is this is my work. This is me. You you got the steady job. He, he loved he was, like, so marveled at the work ethic of theater people. It was really cool to watch him witness a different community, a different world from the ballet world because he was like, everyone's so grateful to be here.

Bret Shuford:

I was like, yeah. Because they weren't just handed these jobs when they were 17, you know. They worked really hard to get here, and that was a cool thing to see him and then help me sort of feel gratitude for for what, what we've got too in the theater world. But he liked it so much. He stayed, and he's done multiple Broadway shows since.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Has there ever been, like, a a jealousy vibe that comes in with one working, one not working, and

Bret Shuford:

how does that work? I don't know if it's jealousy. I think there's always those moments of it helps motivate each other. So okay. Great. You're taken care of. Now it's my turn. Now I gotta figure out how to or, you know, those moments happen. Yeah.

Bret Shuford:

I mean, his skill set is so unique. It's so I I could never do what he does the way he does it. And there's no jealousy, you know. And that's Oh,

Patrick Oliver Jones:

that's good.

Bret Shuford:

Yeah. And we very rarely even audition for the same projects. I think we've maybe in twelve years been together, I think we've auditioned twice for the same show.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

But so far, you haven't worked together?

Bret Shuford:

No. Oh, okay. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Is there a show that you can envision that that might be a good fit for both of your skill sets?

Bret Shuford:

Trying to get a course line. I think that would be a good one for us.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. That makes sense.

Bret Shuford:

It could be like a Zach. I could be a Greg or a Bobby or something. But

Patrick Oliver Jones:

How does that work life balance with with with both especially when you're both working, like, how do you find time for each other?

Bret Shuford:

Well, you have to prioritize it. It has to become a priority. I've turned down jobs early especially early on in our relationship. I turned down callbacks because I was like, you know, if I get this, I think it puts our relationship in jeopardy and I'd rather prioritize our relationship right now. Mhmm. And you have to kind of be willing to not to let life be life and life on life's terms. Right? And and also career wise, understand that the universe is abundant and there will be more jobs. There's always more jobs.

Bret Shuford:

And I think sometimes it's very easy for us as actors to get into scarcity. Say, well, if I turn this down, I'm never gonna work again. But it's just not true.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. There was a a friend of mine who who was kind of in the same situation. He was about to get married, and this callback and and the the timeline of it was gonna conflict with him getting married, his wedding day. And so he he turned down the callback. He had to, you know, send in an email, and the producer came back to him and said, absolutely. Life is always more important. A show will come and go, but you need to take care of your life. And so it it was great that the producer understood that priority that you were talking

Bret Shuford:

about. Yeah. And not all producers are gonna understand that, and that's not your producer. Don't work for those people. You know, to me, it's like, I I just think life is too short, and it's about these experiences. And so for us, work life balance, it's it's tricky. You know, we have those down moments where we're not working, and we're struggling for income, and we're we're looking for all those other things to to do that. Because it is a priority for us just to start a family.

Bret Shuford:

We really wanna do that. But when you're working in what those the field we work in, it's not the money isn't steady, and it's very expensive for two men to have a baby. And so that's our new adventure. We're trying to find the challenges and and work through them to to get there, and I believe we will. But it's it's never on our own timeline. Right? And but, you know, I think so much of this is about having faith, trusting each other's vision, trusting each other in general.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Mhmm.

Bret Shuford:

And being able to say, you know, I I support you. We just did this big move to Charleston, South Carolina for the last nine months, and we were trying out another city just to see if we liked it. And we went away and we realized, nope. Yeah. No. New York is it. Like, we really like New York. But it was something we had to work through together and sort of find a way to to explore new ideas and new dreams and be willing to fail and be willing to get back up together.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I absolutely agree with that because whenever I was on the the Disney cruise line, and it it was just a three month job, but but those three months because you're on the ship and so much of your time is free, then you have a lot of a lot of time to think, a lot of time to just be by yourself. And I got to thinking, like, this is actually really nice. I'm being paid well. You know, I could kind of get into this cycle, this circle of the cruise line and do the contract and do another one. And and and I got to the well, maybe I could just move to Florida. I mean, all of these different thoughts about, well, maybe New York isn't it. You know? So is that kind of what you and your husband started thinking that maybe New York isn't it?

Bret Shuford:

Yeah. Well, I think we're thinking, well, we've done this. Her new dream is to be dads. We had this opportunity for, to partner with the school there. But then we got there, and we were like, no. Wait. The bar is not we're we've been playing at a high bar, and, like, the bar isn't there. And, yeah, we could help raise it, but did we really want to? Like, let's just go back to where we where we know we can work.

Bret Shuford:

We made more money in New York. I it's so funny. People were like, oh, cost of living. And it's like, no. But no one wants to pay us interest in New York. We actually made a living. And I think we wouldn't have known that if we hadn't tried it. Like you said, we always said for years, what if what if what if we lived in the South, or what if we lived somewhere else? And now we can say we tried it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

What was the that final decision, Okay. This isn't working. We need to move back. What kinda led you to that?

Bret Shuford:

Exactly what I just said. My accountant called and said, why did you move to Charleston? You made so much more money in New York. And I was like, we're done. We're going back.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. I mean I mean, there's personal, like, your own, like, I want my heart to be happy, but then there's also, I want my bank account to be happy because money doesn't buy happiness, but it it's an easier path to get there sometimes. It it

Bret Shuford:

it just yeah. And it's just not even about happiness. It's just about feeling secure. And, like, I, as an artist, I need to I will always wanna create. I will always wanna be creating. That's just a part of who I am, and you can't create if you can't eat.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Yeah. That's true. If if you're worried about where your next meal is coming from or your next rent payment, then you can't really think about the audition that you have to learn three songs for.

Bret Shuford:

Yeah. I always say that to my clients, you can't win a Tony if you can't eat. So start just start there.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, I well, I love that we're gonna get you a Tony, but first we gotta get you, you know, jobs Get

Bret Shuford:

a sandwich. Eating. Yeah. Get a sandwich.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So so when it comes to the life coaching that you do, what kind of questions do you ask and what kind of information or what kind of openness do your clients have to be ready to give?

Bret Shuford:

It usually starts with the client coming to me and saying, I'm stuck. This is the thing I'm stuck on. Mhmm. So I had a client the other day who's just feeling like her agent is not working for her, and she's wants to fire her agent. Okay. Let's talk about that relationship, and what is that relationship? Well, I only talk to my agent every three months, and they haven't got me any appointments for six weeks. Okay. Have you have you called them or you've seen them? You know, like, then we have this conversation about relationships.

Bret Shuford:

What is a relationship? How do you, you know, not just romantic relationships, but if you use a romantic relationship, let's say we're using the agent metaphor. I say this about auditions too. You can't just, like, go on one date with somebody and expect them to marry you.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah.

Bret Shuford:

That's just creepy. Right?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Yeah.

Bret Shuford:

And and also with your agent, if you're only reaching out to them when you need something, when you want something, then you're actually not building a relationship at all. And in fact, they only see you as somebody who is needy. Right.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It's more of a transactional relationship and not not a back and forth two way street.

Bret Shuford:

So we have this conversation. What do how do you how would you nurture a relationship? Let's say you went on a date with somebody and said, I like you. I wanna go on a second date. What would you do? You know? She's like, well, I would follow-up. Great. So you you if you hadn't heard from them a couple days, say, hey. I had a wonderful time. It was great to meet you.

Bret Shuford:

Let's, you know, let's do this. Let's go on a second. Right? Right. So then so then she was like, oh, they're human beings. Like, so much of this is about understanding that these people are just human beings when we, we wear this we have this, like, filter around casting directors and agents that they're somehow hold this key. Yeah. Magical key to our future. And if I figure out the right way to finagle them, they'll give me the key.

Bret Shuford:

And then we forget, oh, wait. They're just human beings doing a job. And if I could just approach them as another human being, then we might actually build a relationship over time. And then I realized there was no key. There is no key. There's just human beings helping each other.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. I mean I mean, so much of this is a relationship and and kinda getting to the heart of it because I've talked to to several casting directors and directors who they are looking as much at the person, like, do I wanna work in a rehearsal setting? Do I wanna go through tech with this person? You know? And and because so they're looking just as much at personality as can you hit the high note.

Bret Shuford:

Yes. And I'm telling you, you know, I'm I'm directing a show. We start rehearsals next week, and we're in auditions. And it you know, people know the tea, honey. Like, people will spill the tea. And the a guy came in, and I was like, he's awesome. And then someone was like, no. You don't wanna you don't wanna work with him because he got caught stealing stuff backstage in his last show.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oof.

Bret Shuford:

And, you know, and then you're like, I'm so glad they told me that because I just saved 20 people from six weeks of misery.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right.

Bret Shuford:

You know? Yeah. So you really I think it all starts like I said, for me, it all started when I got sober and really understanding how to better myself. It all starts with the human being and how to be a human. One of the big things that I see commonly as a coach is I will have clients call me and say, I'm taking this workshop. I'm taking this class. I'm working with this voice teacher. I've gone to these auditions. I've been working out, and I'm eating all these things, and I'm doing Whole30.

Bret Shuford:

What what else should I be doing? And you're like, have you just sat in the park for, like, an hour? Right. You thought about just doing nothing. Well, I can't. I gotta get to this thing. It's like, no. Actually, you're forgetting that part of you that's a human being.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right. Have you walked by the the lakeside? Have you read a book?

Bret Shuford:

See a movie. Do something completely unrelated to show business.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Mhmm. I think that's a big one because I know myself, like, when people ask me, so so what else do you do? Like, I go through the list of my daily activities and it all centers around something performing or audition or acting related. Yeah.

Bret Shuford:

So it's so important that you specifically find something. What is the and a lot of times, it's about going back in time. So some clients, I say, what did you enjoy doing when you were 14? Mhmm.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, I

Bret Shuford:

love playing video games, or I love coloring, or I love painting. Go guy go to Michael's, buy canvas, get some paintbrushes, spend two hours on Sunday painting. You're gonna feel so much better about yourself. Mhmm.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Then you're

Bret Shuford:

gonna be able to go to an audition. And when somebody says to you, and this is the key element in building relationships, somebody says to you, what are you up to? You don't just go, I had a callback for Wicked and I blah blah blah. You're gonna go, I just painted for two hours on Sunday, and I hadn't painted since I was 14. It was so much fun. And the other person says to you, I love to paint. And then all of a sudden, you've made a connection.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Mhmm. Yeah. That's so important. Okay. So, like, being specific. So I'll I'll I'll take myself. I'm now I'm now your client. So Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Alright, Brett. I have been in New York eleven years, and, you know, Broadway was the goal, but, you know, regional theater keeps taking me out. And then whenever I do do things in town, it's more like, you know, off off Broadway or it's this little reading. You know, what what what am I missing? Why why why haven't I made that big leap yet? Yeah.

Bret Shuford:

It's a great question. What what why do you think you haven't made the big leap?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I mean, for me, I've, you know, I I guess as the actor, like, whenever there's a a blank space on stage and no one's saying anything, I think I've always missed my line. So in life, I always think that too. It's like, oh, if something's not happening, okay, I've I've missed something. I haven't done something. So in this case, I tend to assume I'm not the best auditioner. So, obviously, something's wrong with how I'm auditioning. That's what I keep coming back to. So I will take an audition class or voice lessons or, you know, something to try to be more consistent with that.

Bret Shuford:

And when do you have an agent?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yes. Yes.

Bret Shuford:

Yes. And so when you're going through this process of, I'm not I'm not doing enough. I gotta maybe figure out a what do you notice happens? Because you you consistently work. So then when does that dissipate?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

You know, I I had about it, like, six or seven months between jobs, and it was like a tough stretch.

Bret Shuford:

Mhmm.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And and in that time, there was a few callbacks, but it's interesting because the last few months of auditions, I'm kinda getting that old sensation of of nervousness of there there's always that little voice of, really? Do you think you're gonna make this? You know, so there's that kind of but but I I try to ignore that and just kinda deal with, okay. Well, it's an it's a numbers game, so I just gotta keep going to auditions. And but but there's that anxiety that has has started to come up more like, it's almost like I'm not enjoying it anymore, which is a weird sensation. Like, I know that when I'm on stage, whenever I'm doing something I really like, then I'm there. But getting to that process, going through the the auditions and hopefully callbacks, preparing for these music, learning these scenes, there's not the excitement or enjoyment of it.

Bret Shuford:

So one of the things you said was, like, I feel like you you you hear this, like, message in your head of, who do you think you are?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Is it it's just that negative voice saying, oh, you're probably not gonna get this.

Bret Shuford:

And you ignore it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Yeah. I I try I try to just push that aside and be like Okay.

Bret Shuford:

So what if you don't push it aside?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well well, then I might not go to that audition because it'd be like, yeah. You're right.

Bret Shuford:

Well, what if you just listen to it? Just listen. So what does it say?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Generally, that voice will say, well, yeah. But the last 17 auditions you went to, you didn't get a callback. So why is this one gonna be any different?

Bret Shuford:

So why bother?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right. Right. Exactly.

Bret Shuford:

Mhmm. When can you remember this is see if you if you remember your earliest memory

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Okay.

Bret Shuford:

Where you felt like, why bother? Like, I shouldn't even try.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I the very first thing that came to mind, and it has nothing to do with performing, whenever I was like a a kid, you know, I'd I'd I'd a great mother. She was a single mother doing the best she could, raising me on her own. But there were times where I felt like I couldn't do anything right. And so I would just kinda placate to her and just, you know, I wouldn't try to step out or do any so I was just like, why should I fight this? Mhmm. Oh, okay, mom. What what do you want me to do? Great. I'll just do that.

Bret Shuford:

Yeah. Okay. Good. That's so powerful to to to remember that because what we have here, okay, I call it gremlin. Right?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah.

Bret Shuford:

And gremlins usually come from some part of our lives when we needed protection.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Mhmm.

Bret Shuford:

So this phrase of why bother? I should I'm not gonna do anything right was your way of not still being able to help your mom without feeling ashamed of helping her. Right? Or, I mean, I'm just interpreting this. Does that feel right?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense.

Bret Shuford:

So what happens is we outgrow our gremlins, but our gremlins stay. They become they they're still trying to protect us even though we don't need their protection. And what did we end up doing is we end up trying to push them away. Right? And what we do what happens when you've got fear or nervousness and you're, like, go away nervous. I shouldn't be nervous. I shouldn't be nervous. What happens?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, then I get more nervous. If it Yeah.

Bret Shuford:

You're trying to push this thing away, and guess what it's doing?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It just gets louder.

Bret Shuford:

Yeah. So what we have to do is actually stop and listen and look at it. Like, almost personify it. You know, for some people for some clients, I would suggest drawing it or I mean, if that's their thing. Or maybe there's a person you can think of, and you put them in a chair across from you. And you look at them, whoever represents that voice, and you stop and you say, thank you. Thank you for protecting me. Mhmm.

Bret Shuford:

I hear you. Because what we all what we will do is we will let that voice drive the car. And what we need to do is say, I got this. I can drive the car. You can get the back seat. I'm not saying leave the car, but you're no longer, like, I appreciate everything you do. So when that comes up, say I hear you. Acknowledge it.

Bret Shuford:

Yeah. Can you do that?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. So so so it's more like when, you know, when when that audition comes up and the voice is saying, you you haven't booked anything in two months. So so why why is this gonna be any different? Then understand, you know what? You're right. I I I haven't booked those, but I maybe there's a way that I can look back to audition and be like, but you know what? That audition went really well. Maybe I wasn't right for that, but that audition went really well, and and I feel good. I'm in a good voice. I'm healthy. And so it's a matter of timing, and I just need to keep doing the timing, and and eventually, this will come.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So it's

Bret Shuford:

Or what if what if it's more those auditions don't matter anymore. All that matters is today and in this moment. And in this moment, I'm good. In this moment, I feel great. In this moment, I feel solid. And in this moment, I don't need protection. So thank you for trying to keep me feeling safe, but I'm this is my job. This is what I do.

Bret Shuford:

I'm gonna do I'm gonna kick ass. Those 17 other jobs I didn't get don't matter anymore. It's done. It's done.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting as as you were bringing that up. I I remember from, like, when I was living in Florida and I had a dog. Part of the dog training was when a dog starts barking to not shut them up, but to go with them, what are they barking at, to look at it, and then pet them, be like, you try to keep us safe. Thank you.

Bret Shuford:

There's your dog. And so it's your dog. It's not a gremlin. It's your dog.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right. It's my inner my inner dog woofing at me.

Bret Shuford:

How does that feel? Does that feel like that's helpful?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I do like that because it puts that that voice that instead of being a nagging voice, instead of being this thing that I that I hate hearing and pushing away, it I think it's a it's a better and I think more balanced way to to acknowledge it. Yes. I hear you and understand why you're saying that, but here's what I'm gonna do instead.

Bret Shuford:

Yeah. Good.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. I like that. Well, thank you. Thank you. See?

Bret Shuford:

Yeah. I can't wait to see you on Broadway. You know, I know. The other the other element, you know, it all starts there. Right? It all starts with just understanding why my mind is doing this, and why am I putting pressure on myself to get this Broadway show when I'm actually working constantly more than a lot of my friends or whatever? Right? But at some point, you have to go, okay. What am I willing to sacrifice? Because there's always going to be some form of sacrifice. And so the sacrifice is if I wanna be on Broadway, I need to be in New York. I need to find ways to immerse myself in that community aside from and this is something I deal with clients a lot with is aside from going to open calls and auditions, how do I become part of the community?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Mhmm. Yeah. That that's actually one thing I wanted to get into because you've transitioned into directing, and that's another way for you to be a part of the community when you're not performing. How has that transition worked out for you, and how how do you feel as an artist directing as opposed to performing?

Bret Shuford:

Well, I'm dealing with my own gremlins around it. You know, I have a lot of, I start rehearsals on Monday, so I'm having a lot of those, like, oh, who do you think you are? You know, it It is Little Mermaid. I did do it on Broadway. I do know it. I think I'll be okay. But I, what I love about it is I love being able to stay creative. The more I've created, especially, like, I have a YouTube channel and a lot of the videos I've created on there have been my where I started directing things. And having an idea and then seeing it on its feet is one of the coolest feelings I've ever had as an adult.

Bret Shuford:

To actually, like, visualize something in my head and then see people who I trust and love portray it, in front of other people is, like, it's one of the most rewarding things ever. So I'm excited about that. And, you know, community wise, it you know, it would the dream is, you know, of course, like, I'd love to be artistic director or something, or I'd actually really love to be a show director, Disney. You know, something like that. You know? But to be able to, like, hire my friends and work with my friends and work with people that I believe in because that's always what we wanted. Right? It's just to have these people believing in us.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Because I I I think it's so important and that and that is one thing that over these eleven years that slowly but surely besides the inner dog that's in me, there's there's also that that more inner soother that it's like, you know what? You're actually finding enjoyment doing this. And, like, this show, yes, it was in Saint Louis or wherever it was, but you really enjoyed it, and you had a great cast, and you had some good friends come out of it. So there's there's so much more than just, well, I I I need to be a lead on Broadway. There's there's so much more fulfillment to be had throughout the day to day work.

Bret Shuford:

You're doing a pot. You've created this, and it's doing amazing. And, you know, not waiting for other people to give you permission is a huge asset. And I think so many actors, so many of us are waiting for permission. And you don't need permission. You don't need other people to come to you and cast you. You can produce your own work. You can create your own community by doing so.

Bret Shuford:

And things happen. The the and you may end up not getting a direct path to what you want. You'll get a roundabout path to what you want, and it'll things will happen that were beyond your wildest dreams when you don't wait for other people to give you permission.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Because it's not so much what Broadway or whatever our goals are. It's not the thing. It's what it represents. And being on Broadway, it represents a fulfillment. It it represents working with great people. It represents my own growth as an artist. And so it represents all those things.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And, yes, Broadway is one way to achieve all of those ideals, but there's also many other ways that I can be that person.

Bret Shuford:

Well and for you, I would you know, Broadway is not the end. Broadway is just upstop along the way. Mhmm. And if you already believe that it's happened, and it's happening, and it's going to happen, what would your choices be? How would you behave differently? Like, I know it's gonna happen. You you know, we can't be in this business for a short term. This is a long term business. You gotta commit yourself that you would you have to vision yourself that you're gonna be doing this for a while. Yeah.

Bret Shuford:

So if you vision, I'm gonna be doing this for a while, then part of that vision is along the way, I'm gonna get a Broadway show. Right. So if I know that that's gonna happen and I believe that it's gonna happen, what choices would I be making differently today?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I think that's such a great way to look at it because, yes, if if all you ever look at is Broadway and it's not happening, then my life is nothing. But if you look at, okay, Broadway's gonna come, but I also wanna direct. I also wanna do a podcast. I also wanna be doing commercials and TV film. I wanna so there's all these other avenues that okay. Once I get Broadway, I'm still gonna pursue all those avenues. So why not keep pursuing them now and Broadway will come when it comes?

Bret Shuford:

It will happen when it happens, and it's going to. Yeah. I I believe that. I believe that about you. I believe that about so many of the clients that I get. It's like it's it's because if we put it our success at the other end of something, then we've actually let our power go. Right? Success lies in the actions you take, not the results you make.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So true.

Bret Shuford:

Right? So if you're taking action today towards that path and that goal, then you're successful. Because believe me, I just want the reason I started coaching was when I got my first Broadway show, and I realized I had magical thinking. And I realized, oh, this is about money? Oh, this isn't about talent? This is about making back their $14,000,000?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right.

Bret Shuford:

I was so disappointed.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It's not some artistic altruist vision of some heavenly theater. It's

Bret Shuford:

And then I was like, now what? You know? Yeah. And so that's when that's when I hope to prevent other people from feeling is is is, resentment when they get there. You know? I think so many of us have that magical thinking, and it drives us the fear of if I don't get there, I'm and then you get there and you realize, oh, this is just a career job. This is just a show. It could close tomorrow. Well, now what do I do? And then we get people in casts for ten years who become bitter because they never move you know, I wanna eliminate so much of that and help people find fulfillment no matter what they're doing. And understand that, like, Broadway is just like this thing along the way from your own fulfillment.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It's such a great way to look at it. Brett, this has been well, it's certainly been eye opening for me, and I and I'm sure many of you listening are are getting the same impact out of it. So thank you so much for joining me

Bret Shuford:

today. Thank you. Well, I have one thing for your listeners. They can

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Okay. Go.

Bret Shuford:

Take I have a free if you go to balanceonbroadway.com, it's a free five day challenge you can take. It conquers different aspects of your life, and it's totally free, guided by me. So if you go to balanceonBroadway.com, you can join the five day balance on Broadway challenge.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I love it. I love it. I I will be taking that challenge. I accept.

Bret Shuford:

Okay. Good. Good.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Thank you so much, Brett. Thank you. In most of the conversations that I have with guests, it's them opening up and really sharing a deep and personal side of themselves. But in this episode, Brett really got me thinking about my own hang ups and the things that hold me back the the inner voice or that gremlin that he called it. And I wrote about this a little while ago in the blog about silencing that inner critic, and I had my own thoughts about it then. But it's interesting now, having talked to Brett, how I view that inner voice a little differently. I saw it as something to silence, something to put away, something to eventually get rid of. But he really made me look at it in a different way of using that voice.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It's kind of a reminder that we do need to protect ourselves. We do need to look after ourselves and make sure that we're not doing things that make us unhappy or that make us, tense and angry. And so it that voice is there to, in its own way, to kind of keep us from going in the wrong direction. However, it can elicit the fears and the doubts and the frustrations that, Brett and I talked about. And so it's important to not silence it so much as hear it, acknowledge it, and then let it know that we have something else in mind, that we have another plan in place, to deal with what that little gremlin is trying to warn us about. And that's why I think it's so important that we do have a plan in place, that we do have a way to see the future that we want and realize that it's going to change, it's going to go down this path and that path that we may not have seen, and that's okay. We don't have to go down one singular path, and if we don't do that one, then we failed. No.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

There are many paths. As he said, it's going to come. When it comes, it'll come. I hope that you got that same spark of realization that I did, and that I have so many things that I want to do that this one singular goal of mine isn't the end all be all. I just know that it's there, place it in my future, and it will come as I work toward it. But in the meantime, I can still focus on and still find enjoyment and happiness and pleasure and challenge in other areas of my life. And so as I said in the conversation, I hope you'll join me in taking that five day challenge that Brett talked about on his website. Later this month, I'll share my thoughts and impressions of that five day challenge and what I learned from it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And you can also share your own thoughts and lessons that you learned with me via email at whyI'llnevermakeit@gmail.com, or you can go to the website contact.winmepodcast.com and get in touch with me there. One of the great things that you can do on the website is you can leave a ninety second voice message, And that voice message is a way for you to ask a question or leave a comment that I can address and answer here on the podcast. Once again, I give a big thank you to Brett for joining me on the podcast today and, of course, for you for being here and listening all the way to the end. It is listeners and supporters like you that make doing this podcast such a thrill and such an honor. So I'm so glad that you're here with me each and every week listening to these wonderful guests share their insights. Until next week, remember, the reasons for not making it may seem arbitrary and frustrating, but the reasons to keep on going are even more numerous and rewarding. I'm Patrick Oliver Jones, and I'll see you next time on Why I'll Never Make It.