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[0:01] Patrick Oliver Jones: In the world of Broadway, success can seem like a dazzling dream. But behind every show that makes it to the stage, there are countless moments of uncertainty and setbacks. And for writers especially, the journey from writing a script to getting it produced is anything but predictable. As an actor, I know firsthand that without writers, I wouldn't have a character to play or lines to say. I mean, it's their words that bring us to life on stage. And one of my greatest joys is collaborating with writers, especially on new works, helping to refine the characters and the dialogue that shapes them. And our guest today knows a little something about that unpredictable journey.

[0:45] Chad Beguelin: Hi, I'm Chad Beguelin. I'm originally from Centralia, Illinois, but I now live in Bridgehampton in New York. And I consider myself mostly a writer of Broadway musicals, but as of this year, I'm now also a novelist.

[1:00] Patrick Oliver Jones: Chad is a six-time Tony nominee and five-time Drama Desk nominee for his lyrics and book writing. And while he may not have any wins yet for his work, his shows have sure been big hits with audiences, musicals like Aladdin, The Prom, Elf, and The Wedding Singer. However, his career has taken some surprising turns as well. He's been hung up on by a Broadway producer. He's tried venturing into motion pictures, and earlier this month, he just released his debut novel called Showmance. Through it all, Chad has learned that success in this industry is never guaranteed, and perseverance, well, that is everything. But as you'll hear, even when a show seems poised for greatness, things can unravel in ways no one could predict.

[1:58] Chad Beguelin: We already had our theater, which was then called the Virginia Theater. We had our poster up in Shubert Alley. And people pulled their money out after the review came out. So it just was just awful.

[2:16] Patrick Oliver Jones: Welcome to another episode of Why I'll Never Make It, an award-winning theater podcast. I'm Patrick Oliver-Jones, a New York actor and singer, and each week I talk with fellow artists about personal setbacks and professional hardships with lessons we can all learn from. The website is whyilnevermakeit.com, where you can donate, subscribe, and find past episodes. Again, that's whyilnevermakeit.com.

[2:50] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, welcome, Chad. It is such a pleasure to meet you and to have you on the podcast today.

[2:59] Chad Beguelin: Oh, thank you for having me. This is great.

[3:03] Patrick Oliver Jones: And one of your first exposures to theater, as was mine, was community theater. And it was a production of Oliver. What about this production sticks out to you?

[3:11] Chad Beguelin: It was the first time I'd ever seen live theater, and I was so blown away that I didn't want to leave when it was over. I thought that maybe they would just come out and do it all over again. So my parents had to convince me that that's not how this works. But they did say, you know, if you want to be involved in this community theater, they do children's shows every summer. And so I became obsessed with that community theater, and it really was like a home away from home for me.

[3:43] Patrick Oliver Jones: I bet. I bet.

[3:44] Chad Beguelin: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For me, I was a young performer myself. And so it was seeing that show that really gave you the bug for theater. Had you even thought about it or watched TV shows, wanted to do that or anything?

[3:56] Chad Beguelin: It really it was the first time I saw anything that was live, where they were singing and there was an orchestra. And so that really just blew my mind. I wanted to be a part of that somehow.

[4:08] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, you have certainly become a part of that over the last several years. And in the Broadway shows, you are both a librettist or book writer. You are the lyricist. And that's basically, you know, the prose and the poetry of the musical theater world. How do you approach these two different styles of writing?

[4:26] Chad Beguelin: Well, the it's funny. I always consider lyric writing like trying to build a boat inside a bottle. There's very little space. There's very little real estate. So every word has to count. And, you know, you also want to make sure that you're doing surprising rhymes, that you're not, you know, just doing June, moon, spoon. So it's the trickier of the two, at least in my brain. I think writing the book of a musical is all about supporting the songs and, you know, building the tension or the excitement up into a point where the character has to burst into song. They can't not sing. So there are two sort of different approaches. I definitely think, for me, lyric writing is definitely harder, but much more satisfying if, you know, if you get it right or you feel like you get it right.

Book writing is, you know, famously thought of as, you know, if the show's a hit, it's, you know, everybody's fault. And if the show sinks, it's the book. So it's sort of a thankless job in a lot of ways. They're two very different sort of approaches.

[5:32] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, that certainly is one of the undue criticisms when it comes to musicals, that all of a sudden the book is the weakest part of the musical. You know, it's all about the songs, which, you know, it's certainly very exciting to have these musical numbers, whether they're singing and dancing. But I was a part of First Wives Club, and it was one of the first times where the book was just as strong as the music. Obviously, you as a book writer, that's something that you're trying to do with every show you do.

[5:57] Chad Beguelin: Yeah, absolutely. And it's also more collaborative in a way because, you know, you'll talk to the actors. This doesn't feel right. What about this? Whereas lyrics, it's very, very rare that, you know, an actor will go, I don't know about that. Because I think it's to them, to most people, lyric writing is some other world. Whereas anybody can talk about the scene and go, like, I just don't get what I'm doing here. So it's like there's very little collaboration when it comes to lyrics. Maybe the composer has some thoughts, or maybe the director doesn't like the joke on the lyric, or, you know, could this be funnier? But no one ever comes to you and says, you know, what about this rhyme? That just doesn't happen. I don't know. It would probably be very offensive, but also I think people are just too scared because it's like, I don't know how that works.

[6:46] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right, right, right. They don't want to touch that.

[6:47] Chad Beguelin: Yeah, yeah. Because I will say that I've had that same approach as an actor. A lyric, I'm not about to touch it, change it. I try to adjust a rhythm to get the lyric in there, but otherwise I'm not going to be changing words. But, yeah, conversation, I guess we all feel like we're our own little writers when it comes to conversation.

[7:03] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right. And you mentioned that the writing, often the book writing, leads into the song. Like they just can't talk anymore, they have to sing about it. So does that mean the book generally comes first, or is it kind of a mix and match of the lyrics and the book happening at the same time?

[7:18] Chad Beguelin: Usually, almost every production I've worked on, a creative team gets together and if you're fortunate enough to already have a director, they join as well. And what we've always done is sort of outline the show, and then sort of a song spot, try and pick where songs might happen. And then what usually happens is the book writers will go off and work, and the songwriters will go off and work, and then we'll come back together and sort of put things together bit by bit. So that usually means if I'm doing both, if I'm on book and lyrics, that means I'm doing double duty. So it's sort of a lot more hectic. But I've never not sort of had that situation where you start with an outline, you start with a general sort of plot that you think you're going to do, which is completely opposite of what writing a novel is like, at least for me. Because I'm learning all these new words and I'm apparently a pantser.

[8:15] Patrick Oliver Jones: And what does that mean?

[8:17] Chad Beguelin: That means that I write by the seat of my pants. It's a thing. And, you know, some writers of novels will structure it all out. And I was just like, nope, I do that all the time with musicals. I'm going to just like no outline, let's just see where it goes. But for musicals, it's always very, because everybody has to agree that we're all going in the same direction.

[8:40] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah.

[8:41] Chad Beguelin: Yeah.

[8:42] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, let's get into story number one here. And this is where you want to talk about the time you made a cold call to a Broadway producer, Margot Lion, and she hung up the phone on you. Now, for those of you who may not know, Margot Lion was a big part in bringing Jelly Sass Jam and Hairspray to Broadway. She also produced plays like Angels in America and I Hate Hamlet. So tell us about this phone call and why it ended with her hanging up on you.

[9:11] Chad Beguelin: It was one of our first shows and it was in, it was being produced at the American stage, which was at residence at Fairleigh Dickinson University. So we were, my collaborator, Matthew Sklar, and I were trying to figure out how are we going to get some producers over there to see it? It's far away. And so we came up with this idea. We sent out postcards to all the producers that we could think of. And then we came up with this idea that we would get them a private car so that we would pick them up, drive them to the show, and then drive them back. And so I was like, well, we got to just cold call. And Matt was like, there is no way I am cold calling producers. And I was like, I'll do it. I'm not scared.

So it turned out Margot was my first one and I called and she picked up. I thought there would be, you know, an assistant or something, but she just went, this is Margot. And I kind of like froze and I said, yeah, we sent you a postcard and we wanted you to know that if, you know, if you want to come see the show, we'll arrange a private car to take you there, take you back. And she just went, I don't want to see that. And I was totally, totally crushed and I was just like, felt like such an idiot. And it took a while, but then I just got back on the horse. And I was like, and we did actually get a couple of producers to, to take us up on it. But nothing ever happened. But the funny thing is I, my Broadway debut was the wedding singer, which she produced. And I've, you know, I never told her that story because I thought, you know, this is just, it's just too weird, but she never put two and two together.

[10:46] Patrick Oliver Jones: No, I'm sure she, you know, got so many calls and so many, you know, offers, but it was just sort of one of those things where I was like, well, if you want to be in this business, you got to hustle and you got to take the nose.

[10:57] Chad Beguelin: Yeah. Just deal with it.

[10:58] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, well, yeah. And cold calling is very different because nowadays you can just send an email or a text, I guess you, if you want to be more direct. So it's a little easier.

[11:06] Chad Beguelin: Well then people just don't respond at all. So then you don't get that rejection.

[11:11] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, no, this was before the internet. This was a long time ago. And when it comes to, to getting a show off the ground, how important or what role do you see the producer as playing when it comes to works that you've done?

[11:24] Chad Beguelin: I mean, it depends, you know, with something like Aladdin, of course, Disney has a lot of, they're very protective of the property. And it's also, you know, you're, you're writing a family show. So you, you know, there are certain parameters you have to be very careful not lines, not to cross. And you know, with something like the prom or even to some extent, the wedding singer, there's a little more sort of freedom and you can sort of push the boundaries a little bit. I have no, I have another quick Margo story. If you want to hear it, go for it.

[11:59] Chad Beguelin: So there was this joke in wedding singer that the actor, the lead man wanted to say. And Margo was like, absolutely not. And nothing. I don't, I've never get angry, but the only thing that drives me crazy is when you can't try something like that's what we're there for. We're in previews to try something. And I said, Margo, come on, just let the guy. And she said, all right, I'll, I'll make a bet with you. He could say it. We'll do it three times in a row, three nights in a row. And if it gets a lap every single time it stays in the show. And I was like, okay, so we're staying at the back of the theater. And he says, the line first time gets a lap says the line. The second night gets a lap says the line. The third night gets a huge lap. And she just turned to me and she said, fuck you and walked out the door.

[12:40] Patrick Oliver Jones: I love the theater.

[12:43] Chad Beguelin: I, I, the, she's not with us anymore, but she was amazing, but I just loved it. She just like, and she kept her word. She was like, you win.

[12:48] Patrick Oliver Jones: That's so funny. Now, how often are producers involved so creatively and saying, you know, say this, you can't do that?

[12:56] Chad Beguelin: A lot. I mean, you know, the, the silent rules that they're supposed to go through the director. So the director can filter out what he or she, but that, you know, that doesn't always work that way. You know, and sometimes their notes are great. And sometimes, you know, you have to sort of figure out a way to make them work. And, you know, sometimes they're completely arbitrary when I was doing Aladdin, Tom Schumacher, head of Disney theatricals said, now after we do friend, like me, you've got a, a minute and a half before intermission. And I was like, what? He said, yeah, yeah, yeah. That scene has to, we got to go. Nobody's going to want to sit around. So we got to go, go, go. And I was like, but that's a lot of information. He's like, all right, I'll give you a minute and 45 seconds. That's like, Oh my God. But, you know, made it work. So, so yeah, there. There are a lot of producers that want to have their voices heard too.

[14:03] Chad Beguelin: And when it comes to a show like Aladdin, obviously that was a well-known, very well-known movie and property for Disney. And Disney is very protective of their shows. Of course, especially when they come to the stage.

[14:05] Chad Beguelin: And the movie had about four different writers that were credited, but you alone were the book writer for the musical. How was it rewriting and bringing that movie and adapting it to the stage? It was very different from any other sort of process I'd been through because Alan Menken wanted to make sure that we got as many of the songs that were cut from the animated feature that he had written with Howard Ashman. So that meant, you know, there was a song called Babkak Omar Aladdin Kasim. So I was like, okay, so now I've got to create these two characters, and they're going to be Aladdin's friends, and so I've got to kill the monkey off so he's gone, you know. So it was stuff like that, or like, Proud of Your Boy, where do we put that?

Well, let's put it, make it his I Want song, so that that's what he wants. He wants to change his life and become better than just, you know, a guy who steals money off the street. So it was a lot of that. It was like a big puzzle and trying to figure out how to make these songs feel like they're pushing the story forward or revealing character. So that was very different than, say, just a straightforward Wedding Singer. It's, you know, we're going to tell the same story. Yeah, one of my favorite songs that was put back into the musical was Why Me from Jafar. And I worked at Disney World years and years ago, and we actually got to perform that song with Jonathan Freeman in the audience. So it was a very surreal moment.

What was it like, as far as you and the pressures put on you to make a show like Aladdin work for the stage? You know, it was extremely, like, almost impossible. We had our tryout in Toronto, and we got killed. We got totally, totally torn to shreds by the critics. And so everybody showed up at the airport to go back home. And you could tell everybody had been crying. I'd been crying. It was awful. And, you know, Casey Nicholaw said, this isn't happening. We're going to examine every single thing. We're going to examine every single musical number. We're going to examine every beat of the story. I'm going to re-choreograph half of it, just like we took it apart and put it back together. And then, thankfully, thankfully, it got a rave review in the Times. So that was shocking and thrilling at the same time. But yeah, there was a lot of pressure.

[16:28] Chad Beguelin: Were those critiques, were they valid? Or do you think that they were just trying to kind of, you know, make a name for themselves by critiquing a Disney show? No, I do think they were valid. And I think one of our big mistakes was we tried to get as many of the cut reprises into the show. There were all these reprises of Arabian Nights that Howard and Alan had written, and they sort of told the story. So we had to get those in there. And so I had the three friends sort of telling the story through these reprises. But what happened was you were just being told what was going to happen, and then it happened. So after Toronto, Tom Schumacher went to Alan. He said, you've got to let us cut these reprises.

We've got to get rid of them. So finally, he agreed. We got rid of them, and we had the genie start the show, because it used to be the three friends starting the show. So that was a huge shift in just storytelling. There were a million other things that got changed along the way. As far as those kind of changes, I assume right up until opening night, you're always thinking, well, that could be better. That could be tweaked. That could be edited. Well, it's funny. Casey and I were just working, working, working, and it was through Christmas. He called me Christmas Eve, and I'm like, you've got to have Christmas off tomorrow. He's like, okay. And then 9 a.m. the next day after Christmas, he called me.

He's like, you'll never get away from me. So then we finally froze the show the night the New York Times critic was coming. So my husband, Tom, and I went out to lunch. We got a bottle of wine, and we cheers, and we drank, and we're like that, and that is done. And then my phone rang, and it was Casey. He's like, we need better jokes at the very top of the show. You need to come to the theater. I'm calling James in. We just need to add three or four more jokes. And I was like, we're going to do this? We're going to try this out in front of the New York Times? And he's like, yep, yep. Get up here. So I poured my wine into Tom's glass, went home, got my laptop, and yeah. So right until the very, very end, we were tweaking it.

[18:31] Chad Beguelin: Well, getting into story number two, I love the way you word this. This is the crushing collapse of what was to be your first Broadway show. Now, the name of the show was called The Rhythm Club, and this was back in 2000. So what happened to this particular show? Well, this show, it's sort of the same thing that happened with Aladdin in Toronto, except we just didn't have a Disney behind it to push us through. The show went up, directed by Eric Schaefer at the Signature Theater, and it got killed by the Washington Post. And we already had our theater, which was then called the Virginia Theater. We had our poster up in Shubert Alley, and people pulled their money out after the review came out.

So it just, just awful. And I used that feeling when I wrote the first scene in Showmance, because of course, his show completely collapses. And it feels so public and so shameful and so like, oh, you couldn't cut it, and you let all these people down. And it's just like this horrible, horrible experience. And then for a while, neither my collaborator, Matthew Sklar and I, neither of us could go through Times Square because it was just too painful. And finally, I called him up one day, and he was conducting at the time, and I was like, temping. And I said, look, we're at a crossroads. You can continue to conduct, I'll go get a PhD, and I'll teach, and we'll just forget it. Or we can push through, and I might be temping and bartending the rest of my life, and you'll be conducting, and we'll keep going until we can't anymore. And so we decided, all right, we're doubling down, we're going to do it. And we just decided we're going to forge ahead.

[20:26] Chad Beguelin: What was the first show after you decided to persist on? Well, this goes into story number three a little bit. I, at the time, The Rhythm Club was dead in the water. I was pitching a screenplay called Frankenteacher, a children's movie, which I sold, but it never got made. But I was pitching it to New Line, to Mark Kaufman. And you could tell he was completely bored. He was just not buying this. And it was just a really horrible meeting. And then all of a sudden, he's like, your name is really familiar. And I was like, why would I know? And I said, I don't know. I wrote this musical, The Rhythm Club, and his eyes lit up, and he opened his desk drawer, and he took out our demo. And he's like, I love this.

And I was like, oh, great. And he's like, we just did Hairspray. We're going to do Wedding Singer. Would you be interested? I was like, yes, I would be interested. And so it was one of those funny things where, you know, what had been this horrible, terrible, soul-crushing disappointment somehow led to a Broadway debut. So it was really one of those things where I sort of thought, wow, sometimes not getting what you want can be the best thing. Because, you know, if Rhythm Club would have come in, maybe it would have been killed by The Times, and we would have been so distraught, we never would have written again. So it turned out to be this huge stepping stone in the most unexpected way.

[22:52] Chad Beguelin: Well, another one of your shows, Half Time, also was slated to come to Broadway, didn't happen. And this one I actually remember. I remember Playbill and Broadway World, they were talking about it. It was getting a lot of hype because of the documentary film, and it was based on. I assume it was much the same process of hoping it would happen, and just didn't work out. Was it similar reasons why it didn't work out? You know, the response just wasn't what we thought it was going to be. And I think it went through so many variations. At one point, you know, Marvin Hamlisch was involved, then he passed away, and then we brought on Matt. And, you know, it was also, you know, if I knew why it didn't work, I would have fixed it. You know, it just was one of those things where people didn't seem to be responding, you know, like we would have hoped they would.

[23:45] Chad Beguelin: Well, I mean, you certainly had a great cast, so it must have been a joy to at least work on. Oh, yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

[23:54] Chad Beguelin: Well, you've been talking about your book, Showmance, and of course, one of the biggest pieces of advice to any writer, especially when they're starting out, is to write what you know, and you certainly know musical theatre. And this novel called Showmance draws from the inspiration of your failed show Rhythm Club. And so what made you want to revisit this disappointing time in your career? Well, you know, the majority of the book takes place in the Midwest at a community theatre, which was, you know, when I was 15, I said to my community theatre, the Centralia Cultural Society, I said to them, I want to write and direct plays and musicals. And they said, okay. And I couldn't believe it. And I said, you really you're going to let me in?

Yeah, sure. Okay. And they were so supportive. And before I had my driver's license, I was directing and writing musicals and putting them up. And they were so supportive. And now whenever I have a show go up on Broadway, they'll do it, and I'll come back and see it. And so it's really the sort of sweet, touching, wonderful place. So I wanted to sort of celebrate that. But I also like the idea of, you know, this playwright who goes off to New York and thinks he's, you know, smarter than everybody and writes his hometown off as a bunch of hicks. And then all of a sudden, they start improving his musical and coming up with these brilliant ideas to fix his broken show. And so he sort of has to go through a humbling experience of, you know, saying, wow, I really, really was judging a book by its cover.

And you guys are really smart and really great. And so I think that was one of the main reasons I wanted to sort of highlight the community theatre, you know, that I'm from and all community theatres everywhere, I think is where almost everybody gets their start. So I was really excited to sort of explore that world.

[24:45] Chad Beguelin: And how much of Noah, the main character in your book, how much of it is you? Um, I think, you know, there are definitely parts of me in him, but I would, he's much more of a dick than I am. I mean, he's, you know, he's, I had to make him that way. So he had some where to go, you know, some growth. But yeah, I would never, I would never, you know, yell at those sweet little people. Never happened. But the, you know, the funny thing is, we're in the middle of writing it, and I was out to dinner with my husband, Tom, and we were talking, and all of a sudden, I burst into tears. And there were some cocktails about, and he said, what, what's wrong? And I was like, oh, I'm gonna have to break his heart.

And he's like, who? And I'm like, Noah. And he's like, you mean that made up person that lives in your brain? You're crying about that? And I think it was, but I realized it was because I was going to have to like, go back and relive sort of almost like a sense memory of what it's like to be dumped, and just be like, completely cast aside, you have no say in the matter. It's just, no, this is over. And, you know, writing those chapters, I was just like, because I was reliving it. But, but yeah, it's, so there are definitely parts of me, but it's not totally me.

[26:02] Chad Beguelin: Yeah, I certainly remember one of my, my first professional job was actually in Tennessee, Cumberland County Playhouse, a community regional theater down there. And I went through the same thing. I was all head over heels for this girl that I was in the show with. And right before a Sunday matinee, she broke up with me. And I was Lancelot in Camelot. And the girl playing Guinevere knew both of us and knew that we'd broken up. And literally in the middle of the show, I'm, you know, I'm professing my love to Guinevere and doing this scene, and I start to cry on stage. Oh, and so there was literally like five or 10 seconds of she just, we, it was not scripted. It wasn't, this was not the blocking, but she just hugged me on stage. And we're there for like five or 10. And then we, you know, I gathered myself and picked up the scene again.

[27:54] Chad Beguelin: Right. That's rough before a performance, come on. Oh man, it was, it was-

[27:58] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right to the day off.

[28:00] Chad Beguelin: Right. Well, it's interesting, you know, this idea of showmance. An onstage blog recently published two competing articles about showmances. One was called showmances, why they should be embraced and not frowned upon. And then the other one said, showmances aren't worth it. Where do you fall on this topic of showmances happening in productions? Oh, I think it's really a bad idea. I mean, if it can be avoided, it's just, I mean, because then they never work out. And then, I mean, maybe they do, but the ones I've been witness to don't. And then everybody has to deal with the repercussions. Like everybody has to be uncomfortable and everybody, and I'm all, whenever it happens, I'm like, there's what, 6 billion people on this planet and you had to pick the one out of the 24 people in this room, you know, like, or just, I don't know, wait till the show's over.

It's just, I mean, I'm sure there are beautiful stories out there where, you know, people have played opposite each other and then gone off and gotten married. I know that's true, but the ones I've seen, it's always blown up and been like so messy.

[28:11] Chad Beguelin: We all have to like, very awkward.

[28:16] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've certainly had my fair share. But I've also had those where I was interested in someone, and they give that line, you know, I just don't get involved with people in the show. And whether or not that was really true, or whether they just didn't want anything to do with me, but it can at least be a line to use if you're not interested in someone.

[28:36] Chad Beguelin: Right. Absolutely. Yes.

[29:06] Patrick Oliver Jones: And another benefit of being a subscriber, you won't have to listen to any ads, either. Well, you've already brought it up briefly, but getting into story number three, we'll dive into it a bit more. So this was when you were selling your movie idea to New Line Cinema, and it ended up you writing a Broadway musical instead. So what exactly was the movie idea that you had? You called it, what was it called again? It was called Franken Teacher.

[29:37] Chad Beguelin: Franken Teacher. Yes. It was, you know, for kids. Yeah, it was about this kid and his science teacher gets electrocuted and dies, and he decides that he'll bring him back for the science fair project, and hilarity ensues. So I actually, I sold it to Kelsey Grammar's company way back then, but nothing ever got made. But as I said, I was pitching it to Mark, and I could tell he was just like, how long before this meeting is over? And then everything changed when we started talking about musicals. And, you know, it was just a bizarre twist of fate that he happened to have the Rhythm Club and knew it and loved it and was ecstatic about possibly working with Matt and me, and it just was amazing.

[30:24] Patrick Oliver Jones: And this led to The Wedding Singer?

[30:26] Chad Beguelin: Yes. So we did The Wedding Singer. And then while we're in the middle of that, he came to us and said, what do you think about Elf? And we were like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the, you know, which was great, because The Wedding Singer had also gotten pretty torn apart by Ben Brantley in the Times. And so we were thankful that we'd already signed on the dotted line for our next show. But, you know, that's another thing that was really helpful in writing Showmance is that opening night for the creators is torture, because you're just waiting for that review. And it's just killing you. And you have to be, you're filming interviews, and you're doing the red carpet, and you're, you know, and you're trying to look happy and what a great time you're having.

And this is so exciting, but you know, you're either going to be completely destroyed. And with Wedding Singer, you know, we were at the party, and all of a sudden, it got really quiet. I'm like, it's not good. It's not good. You could just tell. And everybody, everybody starts to leave early. You know, it's just the worst. And then you're like, well, are we even going to run? Or are they going to? Oh, you know, they were thinking maybe they'd just close the show. Thankfully, they didn't. And then, you know, thankfully, we got some Tony nominations, which extended our life a little bit. But the exact opposite thing happened for Aladdin on Broadway, because we were just so used to, we had just been so killed in Toronto that I was just like, you did your best.

You did everything you could do. There's nothing more you could do. So just whatever it is, it is. And I was just talking to myself like that all night, just being like, you gave it every single last cell of your being. And then all of a sudden, this huge roar comes up from the dance floor. And I'm like, oh my God. And Alan Menken's manager came over and he's like, it's a rave. It's a rave. And we were just like, it was like an out of body experience because I had never had that experience before. I'd never, you know, thankfully, Aladdin and Prom now both got, you know, great reviews and critic picks and all that stuff. But before that, you know, Elf got like a meh. Wedding Singer got a thumbs down. So it was just, I was like, what is this weird feeling? Oh, it's happiness on an opening night. How bizarre.

[32:41] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, I will say that I did get to see Wedding Singer because it lasted on Broadway about eight months or so, I think. And it was a couple of years before I actually moved to the city. So I was kind of back and forth auditioning and trying to get my foot in the door. And yeah, Wedding Singer was one of those. And I actually really enjoyed it because Stephen Lynch was amazing as the lead guy. He was really, really and really multi-talented as far as, you know, because he actually played on stage, correct?

[33:10] Chad Beguelin: Oh, yeah. Yeah. He, you know, his standup was mostly singing, you know, with his guitar. So yeah, he was the real deal.

[33:17] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah. I mean, the number that I remember the most is the girlfriend.

[33:22] Chad Beguelin: Oh, Linda. Yeah. Like her number stopped the show. It was so good. It was so good.

[33:30] Chad Beguelin: I know. It's so funny because like Ben Brantley's review of the Wedding Singer was really a critique of movies to musicals. He started out with like, it's like global warming and we just can't stop them. And it was like, you know, and so I think a lot of people were sort of surprised that the show wasn't this total, you know, garbage fire. The good thing is it gets done a lot, you know, in regionals and high schools. And it's funny, whenever my collaborators and I are having a like bad day or things not going well, I always say, well, you know, they can't always be Hamiltons and Hairsprays. There's going to be someday when a community theater can't get the rights to those shows. That's where we shine. Here comes Wedding Singer. We've got plenty of parts for girls.

[34:21] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right, right. Exactly. Exactly. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I mean, it's such a fun show like that. And I'm sure I was a part of the Addams Family Tour, which also has a great life regionally. In high schools and colleges. So yeah, there is always a life beyond Broadway. And you know, you're still making money off the show that was written however many years ago.

[34:45] Chad Beguelin: Right. Yeah. So it's, you know, it's not all bad. And this was your first Broadway show. And this is what you and Matthew had been working toward, you know, that whenever you thought about giving up back in 2000, it finally happened in 2006. It must have felt like affirmation of, well, I'm glad we stuck through it. I'm glad we kept persisting.

[35:02] Chad Beguelin: Yeah, I mean, it was, it was, I remember, at the end of previews, and I took my family backstage, and we were standing on the stage of the Al Hirschfeld. And I turned to my dad, who is very much like the father in the book, does not, is not emotional. And I turned to him and I said, Dad, look where we are. We made it. And he cried, and I've never seen him cry. And I was just like, wow, that was, it was just so major, because it was like, I think he knew for so long that I wanted to do this. And he, well, my whole family was really super supportive, but he was the one that was always sort of pushing me and pushing me. I remember when I was at NYU, because I would do, I'd write and direct a show every semester.

And I was at NYU summer school when you're in, he calls me up, he's like, I think what you should do is get a list of all the people that own Broadway theaters and call the ones, find the ones that are empty and call them up and say, hey, if you're not using it, can I use it? Dad, that's not how that works. That's not how this works. And he's like, oh, they might think you got some chutzpah. They might think you got some guts. They might say, oh, what's this? I'm like, Dad, that's not, no, I'm not going to do that. But that's how he was. He was always pushing me and then, I'm sure it was his idea, well, Cole, call some producers, get a car in a service to Britain. He was always like, so yeah, that was very, it was a very emotional moment for us both.

[36:48] Patrick Oliver Jones: You had mentioned that you wrote The Prom. You also wrote the screenplay for the Netflix movie. How different is screenplay writing versus theater writing?

[36:57] Chad Beguelin: Well, it was very, we were working with Ryan Murphy and Ryan Murphy is working, constantly doing 50 things at once. And so it would be, we sort of put the musical in screenplay format and we'll talk a little bit about it, but then it would just be, he would call us up and be like, I want to do a scene on the bus when they're going down there, make it about a page and a half, get to call Kidman a joke and I'd like it tomorrow at the latest. So it was very quick and very just, we were just like, whatever Ryan says goes. But it's very different. I think people don't understand that when you sell the rights, the movie rights, you have no control whatsoever. So he could have said it under the sea or on the moon and you have no say in casting.

There were a lot of people in the original Broadway cast, they were upset that they weren't even considered. And nobody asked us, we just like, once you've sold it, it's gone. Nobody came to us and said, what do you think about Meryl Streep? There was no, we were not consulted. We were just write the screenplay and we got to show up to set and meet everybody. But that was it. We were scribes for hire.

[38:15] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah. I mean, I will say that was one of my biggest criticisms of it, that no one from the Broadway musical actually made it onto the screen. So I was really disappointed. And yeah, you're not in casting. Ryan Murphy is in charge of all that and that team. However, working with Meryl Streep, I mean, if there's a chance to do that, that must have been pretty exciting.

[38:36] Chad Beguelin: Yeah. It was funny because the day we met them, they were doing the Sardi's scene. So we went onto the set and she asked me something and she put her hand on my arm and I completely blanked out because I was like, Meryl Streep is touching my arm. And so I had to say, what was that? But she's just everything you want her to be. She's wonderful. She's gracious. She's funny. She said, Chad, this is so much fun. I almost felt guilty getting paid. I offered to take her paycheck, but she decided no. But everyone was wonderful. Nicole Kidman is beautiful in person. She's more beautiful in person than on the screen, if that's possible. But yeah, so that was very exciting. But it did feel like, oh, it's so not ours anymore. It belongs to Ryan and that's the way that world works.

[39:27] Patrick Oliver Jones: And how has your collaboration with Matthew Sklar been over the years? Obviously, you and he have worked together quite a bit.

[39:34] Chad Beguelin: He's a bastard. No, he's great. No, I love Matt and Matt and I just have so much history. And the funny thing is Matt and I, I think we've fought twice. And by fought, I mean, I get quiet and he says, what's wrong? And then we talk it out. I think we've all been in so much therapy. And I've said this before, the only time I get frustrated or angry is when you can't try something. And I wanted to try this thing in Elf and he was like, I just really don't want to do that. I just really don't want to do that. And I'm just like, finally, he's like, okay, fine. And then it ended up getting this huge laugh and he was like, I was wrong. I was wrong. So you know, that's, that's, we've never had like a, yeah, dirty, you know, that's never.

[40:25] Patrick Oliver Jones: So what I'm hearing is, Chad, you're funny and you're always right.

[40:30] Chad Beguelin: Yes, yes, that's exactly right. I'm always right. No, I've, I've been there. Yeah, there are times I've been disastrously wrong. We were doing Wedding Singer and there's a song called Pop where it's all about, is he going to pop the question or not? And they're in this revolving restaurant and Laura Benanti had this little, like, you know, counterpoint thing. And I was like, not getting a laugh. It's not getting a laugh. I don't remember what I changed it to, but it was, and Laura was like, you think this is going to work? And I'm like, I don't know. Let's try it. You're going to try it. And I'm standing at the back of the house and she does it. And it was so bad that I threw my hat down and like ran out of the, like, I couldn't even be in the house because it was, I was like, and I apologized to her after. I'm like, that was terrible. Let's just go back to what it was before. So no, I've been horrifically wrong.

[41:27] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, thank you so much for joining us today. And remember, you can get early access to our full conversation by going to whyilnevermakeit.com and click subscribe, or just look for the link in the show notes. Well, that about does it for this episode. I'm your host, Patrick Oliver-Jones, in charge of writing, editing, and producing this podcast. Background music is from John Bartman, and the theme song? That was created by me. Stay tuned for the next episode when I ask the final five questions and we talk more about why I'll never make it.