Patrick Oliver Jones:

This past week, I had a bit of a personal homecoming as I went back to my hometown of Birmingham, Alabama and took part in the Alabama Thespian Festival. Now as a high school student, I had participated in this festival by performing a monologue and competing against other students also doing monologues. This festival also has other competitions in the areas of acting, writing, costuming, and as well as various workshops and chances to meet with college representatives. Now I was coming back to it decades later, this time, to judge one of these acting competitions as well as lead audition workshops for the students.

If I'm being honest, I was a bit nervous as well, wondering if I had anything to offer these students and could actually help them in preparing their audition pieces. But fortunately, as I watched them, I was able to offer constructive ideas and tweaks to better highlight the songs and the stories that they were trying to tell while also offering positive feedback to keep them motivated and excited about performing. It really was a unique kind of joy to see their performances come to life all based on some small suggestion from me. It was the first time I had experienced that kind of spark in a teacher role and watching students really come to life as they performed. And my guest today has felt that spark both as a performer and as a teacher.

Elizabeth Hess:

Hi. I'm Elizabeth Hess, and I am based in New York City. And I'm originally from Toronto, Canada, but I've been in New York for over forty years, so this is my home. And I'm a performer, a a playwright, a director, an artistic director of my own company, the Hess Collective, and I'm also an arts educator. And I teach primarily at NYU, and my course is called embodied performance based on my book, which is my approach to very physically based work.

POJ:

Elizabeth has developed various theater projects off Broadway as well as traveling the globe with her own acclaimed solo works. And she joins us today to talk about the early years in her career as she tried to join a theater company in Canada. We also discuss her Broadway debut in m butterfly, as well as the rather unconventional route that led her to her biggest television role in the Nickelodeon series, Clarissa Explains It All. And she's accomplished all this despite having grown up in the Mennonite faith, which does not look too kindly upon the performing arts as a career choice. Nonetheless, Elizabeth has certainly found a community, a a family in the various shows and productions throughout her illustrious career.

INTRODUCTION:

I'm Patrick Oliver Jones and thank you for joining me on season nine of Why I'll Never Make It, an award winning theater podcast where I talk with fellow creatives about three stories or moments of personal struggle and professional hardship. Subscribers will get additional audition stories as well as early access to the episodes. The website is whyillnevermakeit.com where you can subscribe, donate, and learn more about the podcast. Again, that's whyillnevermakeit.com.

(This text is a direct transcript from the audio and has not been fully edited for typos or grammatical errors.)

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Welcome, Elizabeth! It is so nice to meet you. So happy to have you on the podcast. Thank you for coming on.

Elizabeth Hess:

It's my pleasure, Patrick. It's wonderful to meet you.

POJ:

Well, one of the things that I love about doing these interviews is meeting people from really all over the world. Now Canada isn't so far from from The US, but at the same time, I I don't meet a lot of Canadian performers, certainly that that moved to New York, moved to The US, but that's where you are originally from. And and what I find interesting about your story is that you grew up a Canadian Mennonite. Now now for those of us who didn't grow up with that religious background, explain a little bit about what that means.

EH:

Probably something that a lot of people can relate to is the moving, that just came out a year or so ago called Women Talking, based on Miriam Tate's book. And she's also Mennonite Canadian Mennonite, and it was made into a film. And it really goes into the the the feeling, the tone of what it means to grow up in that very insular community. So it's Protestant. It's part of the Anabaptist tradition. It was formed by Menno Simons, Mennonite. And, he was a Roman Catholic priest who broke away from the church along with Luther and Calvin and all of those. And the reason I know all of that, which is much more than a lot of Canadian and Mennonites know, is that my first solo piece was all about growing up as a Mennonite minister's daughter.

EH:

So people asked me all these questions. So I actually had to research my roots.

POJ:

And and then you grew up, as you say, in Toronto, and and then just, you know, about 50 miles or so outside of that is the, is the is Stratford, Ontario, which is where the theater festival is. And and from what I understand, that's kinda where you got your first inkling into theater and and a love for it.

EH:

Oh, it was just amazing. And it's just so strange how the world works and how this man community, our background, we don't believe in the theater. It's considered worldly, and, it's not really, something that's encouraged. Music, absolutely, because of the four part harmony and gorgeous music that comes out of the Mennonite church. But this avenue in the arts is really much less accepted and explored, except Shakespeare's okay. Shakespeare thick is considered classy and safe and little did the Mennonites know how much dangerous stuff there is in Shakespeare. So my mother especially was very interested in her children growing up with some cultural capital. And so we would go off to Stratford and to just and I remember distinctly the performance that I saw that gave me chills, and I said, whatever is going on up there, that's what I wanted to do.

EH:

And it was the the devils, and Martha Henry was playing the lead sister in that. And she played this character who took on all these different personas. So it was incredibly theatrical. She had voices that were, like, you know, possession. And so I just was mesmerized and full of just awe and goosebumps. And I just stared at her on that stage and said, whatever it is that she's doing up there, that's what I wanna do.

POJ:

And for those of us goosebumps

EH:

now just talking about it.

POJ:

Just thinking about it. Right. And for those of us in America, we may not be familiar with Martha Henry, but I did a little research on her, and she was this award winning actress in Canada, basically considered one of the greatest actresses of her time to be in Canada, especially in theater. And so to to watch a performer like that who's who's, like, at the apex of their art form must must have been. I I think for anyone, I think we would all get goosebumps from a performance like that.

EH:

Tremendous. And she just recently passed away, and she just performed all the way up into her elderly years. And something curious is that when I moved to New York a number of years later after my training, at one point, I wrote her a letter. I wrote to Martha Henry, and I told her. Basically, what I said to you, I said, you were the inspiration for me to become an actor and go for training and really take on this career. And I'm really, really interested in in working in the Stratford Festival. And I'm here in New York, but I'd be very happy and willing to move back up to Canada to go to Stratford. She wrote me a letter, and she said, I'm listening to everything you're saying in this letter.

EH:

And she said, you're exactly where you need to be. And she was an American who actually found her way to Canada. And there she was up in Canada saying to me, you belong where you are. You belong in New York. I don't know quite how she figured that out from what I wrote, and I don't remember what I wrote to her because that was back in the days when we just had, you know, snail mail. But what a beautiful thing. It was

POJ:

like I I I think that's something that each of us need to hear at some point in our life that you are exactly where you need to be. Don't don't try to, you know, you know, be longing or regretting that you're doing something else. You know, be content with where you are. That that that can be a powerful thing sometimes.

EH:

Especially when it comes from someone that you think of as such a beacon, an artistic light. And she's I'm like, oh my goodness. If she has some sense that I should be here, I'm gonna stay put.

POJ:

Well, this gets us right into story number one, which is where you, you know, when you were just starting out, as you said, you dreamed of one day being a part of this company, the part of the the Stratford Shakespeare Festival in Canada. And from that performance and then on through, you you wanted to be this this actress. I I assume you wanted to follow in her footsteps and do Shakespeare and that type of thing?

EH:

I did. I did. And like a lot of good Canadians, we look to Britain for our training. That's an interesting difference between Canadian and American, actors is that there's a tradition, partly because we are part of the Commonwealth, that looks to Britain, as the source of great acting training. And, so I thought I should really try to get serious classical training in Britain so that I'm really in a place where when I come back and want to audition for Stratford that I'll have the chops. I have to say a little sidebar about that, Patrick. I think you'll find this entertaining. I auditioned for the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art in New York at Juilliard, and the principal of Juilliard at the time was making the recommendations to, Lambda as to who they should bring into their, school.

EH:

And after my audition, the principal at Julliard sat me down, and he said, I'd really like you to consider auditioning for Julliard. I'd like you to consider studying here at Juilliard. And I looked at him and I said, oh, no. I couldn't possibly do that. And he looked kind of, like, shocked. And he said, why is that? Why would that be? And I said, I could never live in New York.

POJ:

Little did you know. Uh-oh.

EH:

Little did I know. But, you know, I think going from to from Toronto to London was going from a medium sized city to a large city that wasn't quite as overwhelming as New York. Sure. And I think I probably, without knowing it, unconsciously really psychologically needed to segue, before coming to New York. And, of course, that's another whole story how I ended up here in New York. That's a Yes.

POJ:

Yes. Oh, yes. We'll we'll definitely get into that. And so it was while you were there at at Lambda that, you that you wrote to the artistic director back at Stratford, you know you know, saying, I'm studying. I wanna be a part of it. And and they actually got back to you and said, you know, we'll we'll we'll get in touch once you graduate. We wanna know. Well, you did reach out to them once you graduated.

POJ:

And how did that go?

EH:

Oh my goodness, Patrick. I can still picture it. I was in the kitchen of my childhood home. My mother was there with me, and I opened the letter from him with trembling fingers just like, my whole career, my whole life is right here, and I'm so prepared. And I have all these audition pieces from Shakespeare ready to go. And the letter said, lovely to hear from you. We have no positions open for young actresses I thought my life was over. I burst into tears, and my mother, who probably was very ambivalent about me wanting to be an actor, being a good Mennonite minister's wife, was just so there for me in that moment.

EH:

I don't think she'd ever seen her daughter so devastated. I really thought after two years of hard training that especially when I thought that they'd said, come see us after you're done, you know, once you've got everything going on in your training. So I just did I just didn't know where or what I would do.

POJ:

Now now now you mentioned your your mother and your father. How did they respond, you know, as you were pursuing this acting training and going into theater?

EH:

Well, I'll tell you something very funny. When I moved to New York, I was at some family gathering with my, family on both sides, both the Pennsylvania and the Ontario Mennonites. And, one of my aunts, especially on the conservative, very conservative side said, oh, and what is it that you do? And my first name is Doreen. I go by my middle name, Elizabeth. And she said, what is it that you do, Doreen? And I was about to say I'm an actress in New York, back when we used to call ourselves actresses. And my mother jumped in before I could say a word. And she said, no. Oh, Doreen was a waitress.

POJ:

Now had you ever waited tables? Was that kinda true?

EH:

Well, I actually when I first came to New York, I had to get a survival job, and I had never waited on tables. I walked into the first restaurant, and I said, I'm looking for a job. And he said, great. You're hired. That was easy. And he made me a hostess because I was I guess you have act one has actor energy. So, whatever that is, people curious about people. And so, there I was baptized on the Upper West Side at a restaurant called Teachers, which was an incredible meeting place for a lot of actors back in the, eighties, nineties.

EH:

And so it was actually really fortuitous that I would be there, and I met a number of people that were part of my acting world from that. But, yes, I did. I saw I wasn't actually a waiter, but I did, host. And then I eventually said to them, well, I said, please let me wait on tables. Let me I wanna make some tips. This is, you know, better. And so they let me work a lunch shift. And then, oh, Patrick, I can't believe that I hadn't remembered this.

EH:

One day, the police came in during our lunch shift and, arrested one of my fellow, coworkers, a way a waitress. She was one of the weathermen. She was working at Teachers under the disguise of another name, and she was one of the weathermen.

POJ:

Wow.

EH:

Yeah. Wow.

POJ:

My goodness.

EH:

And Quentin Crisp used to come in and sit in my section, and I was the worst, worst waitress there ever was. Just the worst. I wasn't I I was just learning my life so that I could go off and audition and do another showcase. And I said to Quentin one day I said, Quentin, why do you sit in my section? I'm the worst waitress. Why do they say, oh, it's so true. You're absolutely the worst waitress and the most fascinating person.

POJ:

So see, there's there's all these clues along the way that maybe you're not where you where you want to be, but you're getting there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. People saw something in you. That's for sure.

EH:

That's true, Patrick. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How lovely.

POJ:

And so and so alright. So so so getting back to to Stratford. So you were you were denied that we don't have a place for any young actresses. So how did you pick yourself up? How did you think, oh, okay. Well, now I have to do something. What did you end up doing?

EH:

What did I end up doing? Oh, so one of my classmates at Lambda came from New York, and her father was in this it was in the soaps in the soap office. And I found out when I was graduating from Lambda that I had dual citizenship. I went to the embassy in London and found out that because my father was born and raised in The States, I actually was eligible for citizenship. So she said to her dad, is it okay if Elizabeth, you know, sleeps in the other room and whatnot? And I'm gonna be staying in London for a while. And her dad said, absolutely. You know, I'm happy to support her if she wants to try it out. And I was like, you know what? I'm gonna give my hand at New York. I'm gonna give it a hand.

EH:

I'm gonna see how that goes. And I came here with $60 to my name and and slept in the extra spare bedroom, at Connie Folkes, who has now passed away, but he was very big in, the actors union and actors equity and to help with taxes with a lot of kids for many, many years. Did all that. He said to me, there's only two rules, for you staying here. He says I'm I he said, I don't want you paying rent. He said, put whatever money you make from that waiter's job, put it aside so that you can, you know, get your own apartment and with a friend, whatever. And he said, and here's the two rules. Pay your telephone bill, because this was before cell phones, and don't drink my scotch.

POJ:

That's right. Priorities. It's all about priorities. Don't drink the Scotch. That that's my favorite whiskey. Are you are you a whiskey drinker at all?

EH:

No. I'm really, really boring. I'm a white wine Prosecco person. You know? It's a Nothing

POJ:

wrong with Prosecco. I love Prosecco. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my goodness.

EH:

But I thought, you know, I thought I'm I'll give I'll give New York, like, six months and see how it goes. And, and then I just thought, well, here I am all these years later. I'm still seeing how it goes.

POJ:

You're you're still you're still seeing if it works out. Right. For story number two, it did work out for you in 1988 when you were cast as an understudy in the original Broadway production of M. Butterfly by David Henry Hwang. And this starred John Lithgow. It was the Broadway debut of BD Wong. So, I mean, this was a a pivotal production, you know, especially for for Huang as a as a playwright. And this was also your Broadway debut, you know, first time being an understudy as well.

POJ:

So so you must have been excited about this opportunity. Right?

EH:

I was excited. I was a little ambivalent about being an understudy.

POJ:

And and and why is that?

EH:

Well, because I wanted to have my moment, in the sun. I didn't wanna be I I felt like a race horse at the starting gate, and that's hard. And some people are really suited for that and have a way of being patient or understanding that their moment will come or they're okay with they're or they're okay with standing by or understudy. For me, I was just like, oh, I wanna just get out there and express my my my heart, my my soul. And so I always felt every performance, I always felt like I was at the starting gate. And then I was up in the with other understudies who were older and had been around around it for a while, and they were very, very dear and supportive and helped me understand a little bit about that. But it was interesting that the producer, when I was being cast, I was down to me and one other person, and he had to fly up to London because they were beginning to think about putting the production together over there. So he had the stage manager, I believe, and an assistant producer.

EH:

He said, you make the you make the call between these two, and they chose me, which was sort of wonderful. I was thrilled, and I loved that stage manager. I wish I could remember his name. And, I was driven this and getting to know my way around and reading my, big fat books to get through because you had to stay through the whole performance. So I was reading Thomas Mann's Magic Mountain.

POJ:

Does it right. Just to get through the shows. No. No. No. Believe me, I I I I'm I'm currently in Beetlejuice on tour, and, and I understudy a couple of roles, but I also watch the swings backstage. And so, you know, they yeah. They have their own projects to keep them busy during the show because, you know, once you know your roles, well, then it's just a matter of, okay.

POJ:

Well, now you're just ready for it. And and and it's interesting what you say about a certain mindset, a certain personality for understudy. I'm I'm really the same way. When I do regional work, I'm always, you know, now at this point in my career, I'm a principal, and, you know, I'm one of the main characters. I'm involved in the show. But then I come to New York for, you know, some of the Off Broadway stuff or tours that I've done. I'm an understudy again. And so it's it's so it's interesting to to go from this where I'm a lead character to now I'm, well, you'll go on every three months, maybe.

POJ:

It's a different it's a whole different mindset to be understudy.

EH:

You know what I think is the best thing about being understudy? Is that you then have empathy for someone who understudies you. And I did get other people's money out in Chicago in a sit down tour, and I was there for six months. And, at one point, I think it was a horrible technical, snafu just before we were opening the show. And then now I ended up in a in an in the emergency room of a hospital. I'm fine, but something happened when the and the the grid did a thing and whatnot. Anyway, as they got the ambulance and they put me on the gurney and everything, I said, before I go, I wanna speak to my understudy. I brought her over. And I said, whatever they say, do not go on that stage until you're absolutely a % convinced that everything is safe.

EH:

And then I I ended up coming back and going on stage. I never I didn't miss a performance. I have a huge black and blue bruise, but I didn't miss a performance during all of that. And I was doing this for month after month after month. And she was there and she was there. And finally, I said to the producer, I said, you know, I'd like to take, like, two nights off or one night off and and let her go on stage. Let her go on stage. And he said, you know, if you do that, Elizabeth, you're not gonna get paid for that performance.

EH:

I said, I don't care. I said, I really, really want her to have the opportunity to do this. She needs to do that. I know what it feels like. It was such a lovely thing to be able to to to to be I don't know what the word I'm looking for. It was like sisterhood. It was like a recognition of equality, and I think one of the worst things, is that feeling that understudies have that they're lesser. How would anybody ever hire you to be an understudy if they didn't think you could actually have the chops to do the role?

POJ:

That that is that is something to hold on to, but but, yeah, it can be tough because I I did the Evita national tour for nine months, and I was the understudy to Peron, never went on once. This is just oh, like, I never got that going on.

EH:

Thanks for you.

POJ:

Yeah. Yeah. Feasts tough.

EH:

Yeah. No. That's no fun. That's no fun. But, you know, when I just was saying to you about understudies being equals as human beings and artists, I know I had this funny experience. We had a Christmas party for m butterfly.

POJ:

Mhmm.

EH:

And we're all there and everybody and doing our thing. And the producer came up to me and he said, oh, Elizabeth, why don't you be a nice little elf and hand out all the gifts to everybody? And I looked at him and I said, oh, I'm I'm not anybody's elf.

POJ:

Which is which is kind of a bold thing to say. It's like, okay. Stand up for yourself. Good job. I mean, right?

EH:

Oh my goodness. I just couldn't believe that he somehow thought that it was appropriate that I should somehow be singled out to be the one that, you know, has its little servant role. And I went, I don't think so. And I said it in the nicest way possible. I really said it in the nicest way possible. And the next day, I got a call from the stage manager saying, Elizabeth, you need to come in early. I need to speak with you. And I went, oh, I wonder what that's about.

EH:

And he pulled me aside, and he said, this is one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. He said, I I I love working with you. I think you're amazing. You're gonna have an amazing career. He said, but I have just been asked to let you go. I said, oh my gosh. I hadn't even gone on. I said, what happened? And he said, no one gave me a reason.

EH:

Interesting. And I went, oh my goodness. I stood up for myself. And it was like, no. No. No. No. And, so they let me go.

POJ:

And and and and you to this day, you really have no other idea other than saying no to being an elf that that was why.

EH:

Yeah. I never went on. I never missed an understudy rehearsal. The stage manager adored me.

POJ:

So so you never got to go on as well?

EH:

No.

POJ:

Oh, wow.

EH:

And, you know, when that happened, the cast, including understudies and the cast, the women in that cast took me out for lunch. It's very sweet. Very, very sweet. So that was really a lovely acknowledgment, of us as a tribe, as a community.

POJ:

That's wonderful. Yeah. Now once once you're asked to leave the show oh, go ahead.

EH:

Yeah. I was just gonna say, you know, I worked with an acting coach, at that time to Harold Guskin, who has now passed away, who was worked with Kevin Kline and Glenn Close and not a lot of people. He was really amazing in his prime. And he said to me in one of my sessions with him, he said, you know, Elizabeth, if you're good, at some point in your career, you will be fired. Isn't that the oddest thing? Yeah. And so that was the one moment in my career that I was fired. And I think why he said that was I think he felt that if you're unique, and very true to your own artistry and your gifts, that there is a way that you'll draw outside the lines. And some people will welcome that and others won't.

POJ:

Yeah. That that's certainly certainly one way to, I guess, put a silver lining on what can be a rather devastating experience.

EH:

Yeah. Yeah. I was that was that was long before that happened. Right. But I guess he and when he planted the seed that it's gonna be okay.

POJ:

And then and did you, I mean, that you know of, did you suffer any personal or professional setbacks be because of that firing? Did it inhibit you from maybe your next job or anything?

EH:

No. No. I wasn't I wasn't invested in being a professional understudy, so I was kind of relieved. I actually it's like freaked out.

POJ:

I guess that's true. In some way, that's it's like freedom. Okay. Good. I don't have to be in understudy. Now I can go for the big roles again.

EH:

Oh, goodness. Because the money is good, and it's like, you know how tough New York is, and it's certainly a lot better than waiting on tables. But it also meant I wasn't free to really go after roles that I would have, like, to sink my teeth into.

POJ:

Now Empettify was, as I mentioned, your Broadway debut, but it's also your only Broadway credit. Is have have you tried for others and it just didn't work out?

EH:

No. It's not really been my goal. It's interesting, Patrick. I really, really, really veered off the mainstream. I started writing my own work after I finished the the, children's series down in Florida. And I was out of the New York loop and audition loop. So it was like, who's she? Elizabeth EH, who? Because I was gone for three years during this series. And I started seriously writing, and I wrote my first solo piece then that I did off Broadway called Birthright, and I got a love letter from the New York Times for that work.

EH:

And I really started to discover my own voice, as a writer as well as a performer. And so I was doing other auditions for things, but I as the years went on, it was like I would do my writing on the side and then go and put my emphasis on, jobs that I was tired for. And then it became more and more the other way where it's like, if I can fit in another job around my work, I will do that. And now I'm really very much invested in pursuing, continuing to pursue my own company. And I write all the work, and I've been directing. And now in this one, I'm also performing in this with the other, the other, ensemble members. And it gives me enormous satisfaction. And I think the fact is that through many years, being an actor for hire, I did a lot of original work.

EH:

And I think I picked up so much about playwriting and directing new works, original works, devised work by being in the rehearsal process.

POJ:

Mhmm.

EH:

Mhmm.

POJ:

Yeah. It really is a training ground. I I think Sofia, I I I've even tried my hand at writing. It's it's it's not something that I've I've fully pursued yet, but I I've tried my hand at it here and there. And it is interesting once you start to kind of dig in, you know, that even without thinking about it, we do have this innate sense of, okay, a rhythm of speech, kinda kind of how characters form and and go through a scene. You know, we we have that innate within us if we just kinda let it out.

EH:

Yeah. And I think probably, I wouldn't be the only woman of a certain age saying this, but there really is a kind of glass ceiling at 40. A lot of roles that are interesting and exciting and juicy start to drop off. And nobody was writing the stories for women that I wanted to perform. And I went, oh, I can actually write those stories. And I'm lucky that I can write those stories because I have friends, colleagues who are in my age group who are so frustrated because they're interpretive artists, and they're not writers. And the work isn't there for them to dig in and and really find a way to layer the work. And, you know, it's interesting.

EH:

Paula Vogel was talking about plays and how sometimes the female role will be a sort of archetypal stand in for a real human being as opposed to being a fleshed out role. And I know that that is a was a frustration for me. And having said that, I'm so grateful that I got to do a number of Tennessee William, plays because he's just so juicy for women. Oh my goodness. And also Chekhov. These these these are men who are writing for women who had such an understanding of the human condition and an empathy for women that was really uncanny. And so I'm now grateful that there's so many more women that are getting a chance to write. But when the work wasn't there, there wasn't also the impetus to pursue roles at a certain age.

POJ:

Yeah? So so for you, at at some point, it just became easier or or or, I guess, more accessible for you to be able to write your own stuff than to try to find it.

EH:

Yeah. It was right there.

POJ:

Yeah. Yeah.

EH:

And and then also when when you write something and it's received by others and it's resonant with them, that's so beautiful. That's so beautiful that it's like I'm I I and I, you know, I teach, and I say to my students that the thing that excites me is the illumination of your inner life in imaginary circumstances. Go after your own inner life and share that. Illuminate that. And if you do that, then other people will meet you where they are. And they it will be resonant with them because they're free to have their own experience of what you have shared with them. You're not telling them what they should do. You're not telling them how they should respond.

EH:

You're it's an act of generosity to share your inner life, your soul, your heart. Mhmm. Yeah.

POJ:

Well, getting into story number three, there was there was something that you longed for which was being a part of Long Wharf Theater in New Haven, Connecticut. That that's some that's a place that you auditioned for many time and a number of productions, but you never you never got past the callback phase with that. And and and I know I know I certainly know what that feels like. For for me, that is Sacramento Music Circus. I've been in so many times and auditioned for them, callbacks, but never actually booked the role. So is it I I know what that feels like to just keep going, keep going, and crossing your fingers.

EH:

Wait. What is the story here? Why? What is it? What are you looking for? Oh my gosh. It's terrible. Right. Right.

POJ:

That's That's always the question we ask. It's like, what do you need? What am I not doing? I will do it. I promise.

EH:

Oh. I don't think you've done this, Patrick, but sometimes I've gone to see a show in New York. I I wouldn't go up to Longmore, but I've gone to see a show in New York where someone else was cast in a role that I really, really wanted, and I thought I nailed the audition and everything. I'm like, what? You didn't go with and then when I see who got the role, I went, oh my goodness. If that's what they were looking for, there's no way they would have hired me. No. No. And if they wanted that, I would have been so miserable in that role.

EH:

Yeah. There is a reason.

POJ:

Right. And then there's those times where it's like, right, I see the person who got the role that I wanted. I'm like, oh, they went in a completely different hack on it, a different direction on it than I than I even thought of. So, yeah, some sometimes it has nothing it's it's not that I'm untalented or I can't do it's just like they had a different perspective that, you know, I just didn't have on the character.

EH:

Yeah. Oh. Yeah.

POJ:

And so where where do you find that persistence and diligence to keep auditioning, especially if it's the same theater, you know, just going back time and time again when when all you've seen is is kind of hitting that wall of rejection.

EH:

Oh my goodness. My mother used to say to me as a little girl, your stubbornness is your burden and your gift. Mhmm.

POJ:

Definitely a double edged sword. That's for sure.

EH:

Yeah. I just was I was determined to somehow I think on a I think on a deeper level, I really wanted and needed to be seen and heard in a way that many women are not. And certainly growing up as a Mennonite, it's such a patriarchal and misogynistic culture in many ways. And, to have all of that imagination and instinct and impulse suppressed and then to release it through your art is such a gift. And I know one of the lines in my first solo piece, the one that I did, on Theater Row, the the mother who was was my mother in the thing, my mother in the place, she said to me, what is it that you want? And as a little girl, my character says, to be fully expressed. And I think that's it. I think that's always been true. I want I've always wanted to be fully expressed, and everyone should be, whatever that means to them.

EH:

But, you know, it's it's expressed.

POJ:

Because it's so freeing to be able to find our own boundaries rather than have them established for us.

EH:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with you. And I think that the reason I probably was so persistent, particularly with Longmore, is because they were actually doing plays, that interested me. And the very playwrights who inspired my own writing would have been some of those writers that whose words and worlds I would have wanted to embody. But yeah. So what happened was Ken Frankel was one of those directors, and he said to me after my, my callback of one of those endless things, he said, you know, Elizabeth, this isn't the right role for you.

EH:

This isn't the right piece for you. He said, but I promise you, we will work together one day. I was like, oh, okay. I was like

POJ:

But why not today? Why not today?

EH:

Why not this one? I can do anything. I'll do I can make it be the right role. So and it's like, oh, that's such a lovely thing to say. And I don't know. It's just very sweet, but that'll be the end of it. So years later, I'm gonna say I'm gonna say two years later, I'm on the 70 Second Street subway. I'm the number one, and we're we get that announcement, everybody get off the train. This train is going out of service and wait for the next train.

EH:

So I'm standing on the platform there waiting for the next train, and I have an audition for a commercial. And I never booked commercials the way everybody else booked commercials. And I was like, oh my goodness. Goodness. I'm being dutiful and going off to my commercial audition. So I was waiting for the train to come. And lo and behold, who should come walking along the platform and the subway but Ken Frankel? And Ken Frankel says, oh, Elizabeth. How are you? And they said, well, I'm fine.

EH:

How are you? And, he said, I have an audition I'd like you to come in on this afternoon. And I said, well, I have this commercial audition. He said, whenever you're done with that, here's the address and come to this audition. If and I said, okay. And, he said, yeah. It's this, it's this children's series, and, he said in it'd be for the role of the mom. And he said, here's the address, and it's on this floor, and just show and just show up when you can. So I finished the commercial audition, and I went to this address.

EH:

And I went up to, like, the Fifteenth Floor, and I went to the reception. And she said, yes. Can I help you? I said, yeah. I'm here to audition for the mother of some children's TV show. You know, the name of it, I didn't know anything about it. I didn't have any sides. I had nothing. And somebody came out and gave me some sides.

EH:

And I looked at these sides, and there there was and I went in and did a cold read, and the producer, the, Mitchell Clea, kind of Greenman, who was that who created this Clarisse Explains It All, was there. And everybody was at this conference table, and I read, and they we talked and all of these things. And I did my thing. And a month later, I was down in Florida starting the beginning of a three year, stint of playing the mom on Clarisse Explains It All. Thanks to Ken Frankel seeing me on the subway.

POJ:

Now now was Ken in the room when you auditioned?

EH:

Yeah. He was the he was one of the directors on the series, that first season. And then he moved on to something else, and somebody asked him in. But he was one of the directors on that on that series. And speaking of being Canadian, they said to me when they were offering me the role, they said, we want you to sort of Americanize your voice because I have I have these sort of I say things like sorry and not sorry What a joke. Dollar and not dollar. Like, I don't know if you can hear it, Patrick. It's after forty plus years, I'm kind of a mix.

EH:

I'm kind of a transatlantic mix.

POJ:

Right. Right. Because you have your London roots. You have your Canadian roots. New York. Yeah. It's all in there.

EH:

And the and the Brits tried to bash my Canadian out. And then when I came to New York and I was talking in in the standard RP like that, you know, I had an agent say to me, girl, you're never gonna work in this town if you talk like that. So I said, oh, I'm gonna let it be whatever it is. So when they said to me, we want you to sort of Americanize you, I said, no.

POJ:

It's the elf all over again.

EH:

It was the elf all over again. I said, if this was, like, a short gag, that would be one thing. I said, but this is a big chunk of my life and my time, and I wanna be myself, and I wanted to bring myself to this. And, they completely understood it the moment I said that. They completely understood it. And they said, oh, it's kinda lovely. It's slight it's a slightly mysterious exotic edge to this American mother.

POJ:

Yeah. Yeah. It it gives her dimension.

EH:

It gives her dimension. Yeah. So they let me keep my they let me keep my what it's not even Canadian. The Canadians would be like, oh, you lost that a long time ago. It's transatlantic.

POJ:

Yeah. Yeah. No. It's interesting with with us on tour now, I I'm I'm hearing a a bit of the I mean, you get some of the stereotypical like, oh, you betcha. I'm getting a lot of that. You betcha. Right?

EH:

I'm getting

POJ:

a lot of that. Right. Right. Right. Because we're we're, like, in in the mid sec you know, Alberta. You know? So so

EH:

we're Yeah.

POJ:

Yeah. So we're right above Minnesota and all that here. But

EH:

No problem. No problem. I hear when I hear, in Canada.

POJ:

Right. And and definitely, of course, the the story and and and what about that?

EH:

Yeah. But but and you know how you spell Canada? C A N A D A. A?

POJ:

A? Right? Yeah. Yeah. So I I'm I'm definitely hearing it up here. But but but yeah. So it's interesting hearing you that whenever I have auditioned for certain things, especially when it comes to to TV film. With TV film, I, you know, I'm a theater background, so I enunciate so clearly. And people have asked, are you are are you British? Is is that your accent? Like, I'm I'm not putting on an accent. This is just how I speak.

POJ:

I but I I enunciate. I I put all the consonants in every word. And for TV film, they kinda want you to just kinda do like this, you know, where you just talk it. Yeah. Yeah. You just kinda mumble the words and just kinda talk easy. But, no, I I enunciate. And so it can be very interesting to to hear people, you know, say, where where exactly are you from? And then whenever I tell them I'm from Alabama, which is the South, they're like, oh, you don't sound like that at all.

EH:

Wow.

POJ:

Yeah. So it's really a trick.

EH:

Patrick who knows if we're gonna be illuminating, in this conversation, but we'll certainly be articulate.

POJ:

Alright. People may not care what we say, but they're gonna hear it. Oh, I love it. So so yeah. So you were in Clarissa Explains It All for for for three years. How how did it change your life and career being a part of that show?

EH:

Oh, it was wonderful. I was in my late mid late thirties when I was cast in that role, and I had never had a maternal instinct. I know when other women would talk about it, I'd be like, what is that thing, that pang? And about six months before this show came through, I I had it. I went, oh, I feel that maternal pang everywhere I looked. And I would see babies and just go, oh. And then I got this show, and I got to be this mom. And I went, oh my goodness. And, I thought, I don't know anything about motherhood.

EH:

I'm not a mother. And it was interesting. We had a little reception in New York before we went down to Florida to celebrate all this. And and, Melissa and Joan Hart, who plays the Clarissa, she came up to me. She was, like, 12 maybe at the time. And they had, like, soft drinks for the kids, and they had, like, Prosecco for us. And she said to me she said, Elizabeth. She said, do you think I could have a little Prosecco? And I said, oh my goodness.

EH:

I said, I'm not sure I know how to answer that question. And she said, you know what I'm thinking? I'm thinking just a thimbleful would be perfect, just as a way to celebrate this. And I looked at her and I said, you know what I'm thinking? I'm thinking just a thimbleful would be a perfect way to celebrate our show. And she went, and she had a thimbleful of Prosecco. And I went, oh my goodness. She and Jason are going to teach me how to be the mom. They're gonna teach me. I'm gonna learn from them.

EH:

So they ended up being my they were my TV kids, but they were really the they came along at my in my life at the wrap party, I said, you have been my children in this lifetime, and I could not be more thrilled, more blessed than to have had you be my children. And it and I'm telling we were all like, oh. And the last day of, the set, we were on the sofa, and one of them, Jason was on one side of me, and and, and Melissa was on the other side of me. And they were just sitting there, and we were waiting for another take. And I said to both of them, I said, will you do me one more favor before this is all over? And they rolled their eyes, and I'm like, yes. What is it? I said, will you both just collapse into my bosom? And they both just settled their heads onto me. Like and I put my arms around both of them and kiss their heads. They were my babies.

POJ:

Well yeah. And and, yeah, you got to be a part of their growing up as well because I because I'm sure that was formative for them and and how they grew up to be, you know, into an adulthood.

EH:

Well, then I never had to discipline them. There was wranglers through that and real parents and tutors to do that. So I got the best of them. They got the best of me. And I was, in some ways, like a confidant as well as, an older sister and also a mother, and a fellow performer.

POJ:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's always I I actually for the most part I mean, I I I've certainly had children where it's like, oof, you know, it it makes makes for a rough day sometimes. But but overall, the children I've worked with, I I've loved working with them because, yeah, you you're you're kind of the the the uncle or the aunt, and so they they come to you and you can kind of have semi adult conversations, but, you know, within within reason. And and, yeah, it's like they're they're kind of probing you, prodding you to be like, you know, how do you do this? What happens there? You know, a little bit about life stuff that you can teach them without having to, like, really get into the nitty gritty of discipline and and all that. So it it really is fascinating to kind of see their minds work knowing that's how our minds were working at the same age.

EH:

Yeah. Well, it was interesting too because we were there, for three years. They were going through puberty and young adulthood and all of that sort of thing. And Melissa was when she was, like, 15 going on 16. She was, like, interested in flirting with the cast with the crew. Of course, she was. And I was always flirtatious and playful. Oh, these were my the I loved I I loved all of the crew.

EH:

Didn't matter to me who or what. We were all so playful. And so Alyssa said to me at one point, she said, you're you you just flirt. You flirt with everybody. I said, yes. I do. Men, women, boys, girls, dogs, cats. I said, it's called being playful.

EH:

And I said, there's room for both of us. Because she started to feel like she was competing with me for male attention. I went, honey, there's enough in this room for everybody.

POJ:

That's so funny. Oh my gosh. That's so funny. Well well, eventually, after after Clarissa, you you went from the one auditioning to being the one behind the table. You eventually, you know, got to be the one doing the casting and doing the audition, over the years. What was that transition like going from auditionee to the auditioner?

EH:

Oh, I think that my experience as an auditioner is not unlike working with directors who have been performers, that you have an empathy for what you're asking somebody on the other side to do. And so just like that early, early experience of wanting Stratford more than anything in the world, I understand that when you're young, you you you only have the experience that you have, and so your dreams are very focused on the things that you recognize. And you can't imagine that there are things that are gonna happen in your career that have not even been written yet, that have not even been birthed yet. And you don't know that. You can't know that. So I like to just really be supportive and also to understand that if if somebody isn't right for a certain role, it's exactly what you and I were talking about, Patrick, that if it's not a comfortable fit, it's not doing anybody any favors. It's not doing anybody any better you should let people be free to find where they will blossom, where they will flourish. And then the the joy and the excitement of finding someone who's a gem and and just blossoms in a way that you know what? I feel like I feel like the one thing that everyone has that stands out in an audition, when someone stands out in an audition, is some form of light.

EH:

It can be warmth. It can be radiance. It can be illumination. It can be glow. But it's some aspect of light that gets radiated.

POJ:

Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. I I think that in, I guess, in more practical terms, that's that's our unique personality coming out. And it's gonna come out in different shades and different ways, but it's it's it's our own person finally coming out and inhabiting a role in a way that no other no other person can.

EH:

Exactly. Yeah. And to really trust that. To really, really trust that. Yeah. I think, I think that's one of the hardest things is to not wait for someone else to discover you, but to discover yourself.

POJ:

And that's something that you have done with the Hess Collective, you know, starting your own theater company. What what led you to finally, I guess, formalize your own your own company of sorts?

EH:

Well, it's so funny. I a former student of mine and I happen happen to be at New York Theatre Workshop seeing a show together. And she said, Elizabeth, how are you? What are you doing? I said, oh, I just published a book on all my, approach to, embodied work. And, and and she's like, yay. And she'd been part of that developmental process as one of my students. I said, and what are you doing? She said, oh, I've just been accepted into the theater management program up at Columbia in grad school and so on. And and she said, and she said, we should talk. So, anyways, we talked.

EH:

And I said, I'm really interested in finding ways to do workshops of my approach here in the city. And she said, yeah. She said, Elizabeth, what you need to do is you need to form your own company. You need to premiere your work so people can see what kind of, work that you do, and they'll get excited about it, and then they're gonna wanna take your workshops. And I went, oh my goodness. She's right. So it wasn't my idea to start a career.

POJ:

Again, it's someone else seeing something in you.

EH:

It I really thought I wanna do these do more and more of my workshops. And then I had been doing all this solo work. I've done a lot of solo work here and then also internationally. And it's also some international, devised work and creating original work. And I hadn't thought about what it would be like to then create work with others here in New York. And that was the beginning then of the seeds. And the first and then she and I put together a website, and we put together a workshop so that she could do pics for that. And then I started working on this this initial piece, and she's filming it.

EH:

And, David, Diamond from La MaMa was somebody who I had talked to about, work with La MaMa. And he put me in touch with Mia Yu, the artistic director, and and Jenny and I, Jenny Waxman was the person who was my former student. The two of us went down there, and she showed her all the stuff on the website. And I talked about the piece that we were developing. And Mia said Mia Yu said, great. Let's put you in the next year's schedule. Oh my god. We both walked out of there and went, what? Wow.

EH:

How did that just happen? We were like, wow. So Bruce Mia and, you know, Alan Stewart used to do that. Alan Stewart would have an intuition about artists and say, I wanna produce your work. And Mia, having known, about me maybe through David Diamond, but really by trusting her own response to what was being said and shared and who we were in that space, said yes to us. And now I'm going into my third co production down at La MaMa. The second one, we had to pivot online because of the pandemic. Oh my god. That's a story for all of us.

EH:

And now we're thrilled to be back on our feet and in the in the world again as I'm sure you are too, Patrick. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Yeah. What a joy Yeah.

POJ:

Yeah. Yeah.

EH:

To do Yeah. Yeah.

POJ:

Yeah. The stage is where theater is meant to be. It's not meant to be through a Zoom camera. That's for sure.

EH:

Oh, no. No. No. Well, we ended up filming that second production, and it the film version then went to a number of international, theater festivals. So we plan to also film this one so that we can use it, to, to do for international, festivals, but also as an educational tool for universities and schools and high schools and whatnot here because the work is incredibly entertaining, I would hope and think, and it's very, very theatrical. But it also deals with gender issues in a very transformative way. And so I think it's really valuable also as an educational tool in its own right.

POJ:

Yeah. And then and this latest production that that we're talking about, No Reservation, comes up in in February. And it it is quite a bold and and mythical story in in some ways, you know, and and it's one that you're so you're not only directing and performing in it, but you also conceived and wrote that play as well. I I I'm just wondering, how did you manage all of these hats at the same time?

EH:

Well, it was so funny, and I I when I was talking to Mia Yu about this project, I said, I've I've written a number of pieces that deal with violence against women. And I said, I don't wanna do another piece that deals with the victimization of women. I said, I really, really wanna do a piece that celebrates sisterhood. And the second piece that I did, by the way, took it from the male point of view, so we did not do a whole victim y thing either. I've really been I I feel so strongly about not doing kind of victim porn. I hate it. So with this piece, I said, I just know I wanna do something about sisterhood being powerful. And I went, how are you gonna do that, and what's the framing of all of this? And then I just thought, what happens if you have these diverse global goddesses crash a dinner party celebrating false gods.

EH:

And then I went, oh, this gives us an opportunity to create these really powerful, empowering figures that aren't Greek and Roman goddesses, but are from Asia and Africa and indigenous and Middle East. And so I really wanted that. I really wanted to get a a a global scope to this. And my own practice is becoming more and more about, global performance practices, so more more ritualistic, more shamanistic, and not just the Western canon. So those things all fed into my thinking about the project. And I talked with Mia about casting, and we worked with a number of people, that I met with and talked to. And the developmental process took a year starting on Juneteenth, which was really lovely. So I felt and and we did the developmental workshop a year later that that, June.

EH:

And then this fall, I started with my the cast that's now in the production and just introducing everybody and then getting on our feet here, going into the the rehearsal for the production. Advantage of a year of development, developmental workshop, and I really like to work that way. That's the way I've worked on all the stuff for the Hess Collective is that I spend a year in development, and then I go into formal rehearsals and production, because it's a lot, as you say. And I'm creating worlds, and I wanna create the world fully so that we can then go in there and play with enormous freedom.

POJ:

One of the actresses that you cast, Akiko, I'm gonna be, having her on the podcast as well. What was it like, you know, having her audition, casting her, but then getting to work with her?

EH:

Oh, she's just a dream. Oh my goodness. She's just fearless and so full and so inventive and so receptive, and it just she tickles me pink on top of that. I mean, it's you know, when you do all the work to create something and get it produced and everything, and it's like you get into the rehearsal room and you go, oh, this is why I do this. It's such joy, and she sparks me. She sparks me as a fellow performer who's

POJ:

who's who's

EH:

playing off of her. And also when I look at the text as the writer, I see what she's bringing to it, and that also helps me understand what's there. It's interesting. Sometimes as a writer, you don't always know everything that you have written until you see what a performer brings to it. And then it's like, oh, yes. Let's get that out. Let's get in that yes. Let's pull that out there.

EH:

So she's such a gift. She's such a gift to me. I really, really am grateful, that she that our paths crossed. And, you know, she's worked with Ann Bogart in City Company, and she worked with Rachel Dickstein in Wright Time. And, you know, these are other women who are also working in their own, companies and fields. And so there's just something beautiful about women artists who are creating worlds for other women. And I say that, Patrick, in a way that I feel so inclusive about all human beings. It's not just about women, but it's it's about also including stories that have not been told and voices that have not been sung.

EH:

And, so it is just very it's just very exciting to have someone like Akiko be part of a rehearsal process who's just so alive and vital.

POJ:

What and it sounds like that that's what you yourself have strived to be throughout your career. It it it took you different paths and different ways to find it, but it seems like that that's that's what you've been trying to hone in on as well.

EH:

Yeah. I feel like we're really good playmates. I feel like Akiko and I are like in a two kids in a playground. You know? Oh, how can you go on that swing? Let me see it. I'll go on this. I know. Yeah. To to really define my own authentic aliveness as a woman, as a person, as an artist.

EH:

And I also feel like I was raised to be very competitive in this business as a woman with other women. And to be in a place now as an artist where the work is inclusive and collaborative and empathetic and cathartic is just it's such a relief, and it's so it's so enlarging. It's of my own life, and it lets me have an expanded sense of self as opposed to, having to go into some small container. There's there's really room for all of us.

POJ:

Well, thank you so much for joining us today, and remember, you can get early access to our full conversation by going to whyI'llnevermakeit.com and click subscribe. Well, that about does it for this episode. I'm your host, POJ, in charge of writing, editing, and producing this podcast. Background music is from John Bartman, and the theme song, that was created by me. Stay tuned for the next episode when I ask the final five questions, and we talk more about why I'll never make it. But, you know, I I've heard the term Mennonites, so I know, you know, here in America, we have our our Quakers and stuff like that. So I so I know that there's Mennonites. Yeah.

POJ:

Yeah. There's Mennonites as well. Yeah. Yeah. Especially, like, in Pennsylvania and other places. So so yeah. So, yeah, we'll definitely we'll definitely get into that.

EH:

That's actually how I managed to be here in The States because my father was born and raised in Lancaster County at tenth of the year there in Kedronite. And so my father is American, my mother's Canadian, and so I actually, have dual citizenship because of that. Okay. Thanks. Thanks to Lancaster County. Thanks. There we go. Very much.

POJ:

Per perfect. Perfect.