Patrick Oliver Jones:

Welcome back listeners. Last week, actor, director, and playwright Elizabeth Hess and I dove into some of her missed opportunities as well as the creation of her own theater company, the Hess Collective. And while that was such an insightful conversation, there is still so much to explore, and that's why I am so thrilled to have Elizabeth back here with me for the final five questions. Now, these are where we get to, you know, get a little bit more personal. We're uncovering lessons learned, hopes for the industry, and a deeper look at what drives you as an artist. So Elizabeth, let us get started with question number one. Here we go. What do you remember most about your first professional show?

Elizabeth Hess:

I think it was The Devils with Martha Henry. And I'm Now

Patrick Oliver Jones:

now this would be professional show that you were in. So so Oh, the first

Elizabeth Hess:

I was in.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. First professional show that you

Elizabeth Hess:

professional show that I'm in. Yes. Oh.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

There we go.

Elizabeth Hess:

Oh, the first professional show that I was in was at LaManna, and it was called Love and Junk. And I was playing a methadone addict, and I went to Bellevue Hospital to the methadone clinic to do research.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Wow.

Elizabeth Hess:

Yes. I did. And they let me do that. And these, the addicts, the methadone addicts would come in, and they would give them a little tiny paper cup with their little syrup dose of methadone. And this is I don't know if everybody knows this, but it's a way for heroin addicts to, to segue off of heroin from methadone, hopefully, and eventually to to get clean. But in any case, what they would do before after they gave them their little dosage is they would they would cap them in their solar plexus so that they would have to swallow it and as opposed to hold it inside their mouth to spit it out and then sell it on the street. So that was a fascinating, fascinating bit of research, and I don't even know if people would be able to do that kind of research now or not. And little did I know that forty plus years later, I would be back at La MaMa, working on my third co production, but that was my first home.

Elizabeth Hess:

And I'm doing rehearsals right now in the same Great Jones Studios.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We we we keep coming back to these things in our life and, you know, the the the homes the the the different homes, theatrical homes that we have. It's it's really wonderful. Well, number two, if you could go back and give advice to your younger self starting out, what would that be?

Elizabeth Hess:

Not to wait for others to discover you, but to discover yourself that you have within you all that you really need and to really honor that and to let it come forth. And I remember when I was starting out, I thought, what is it you really would like from the industry? And I said, I would really like respect and recognition. And I realized years later when, oh my goodness, Elizabeth. That comes from yourself. That respect and recognition is within you. Oh, the rest is gravy.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And and and that's so hard when you're young to have that kind of perspective, but it but it is something to to keep in mind that that as it continues to grow, obviously, we continue to evolve as people, but that as we're evolving, we keep picking up more and more things to become ourselves. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Well, number three, what does the idea of success or making it mean to you?

Elizabeth Hess:

Boy, does that change over the years and over the decades? To me, success is living an authentic self to express my truth through my life and through my work. And as I had mentioned earlier, I think to illuminate my inner life through imaginary circumstances. And it's not something where initially I would have thought success would have meant that I'm better than someone else, and therefore I got my career becomes a big hit and yours doesn't. It isn't an either and or. It is a yes including. And I think that the more it is inclusive, and the more I feel a sense of community, the more my own sense of success resonates out there in the world because I'm not going out there to get it. I'm actually this is what it is, Patrick. It's really a question of attracting rather than promoting.

Elizabeth Hess:

It's really attracting energy as opposed to promoting energy, and that to me is success.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

That's it.

Elizabeth Hess:

It's learning how to it's learning how to attract attention rather than promote attention. And you attract attention because you you draw others to you because there's something within you which you wish and want and need to share.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. In in a religious context, Saint Francis of Assisi, he he he's quoted as saying, you know, when it comes to evangelizing, you know, you know, spread the gospel, evangelize as often as you can, but use words only when necessary. Uh-huh. Because because our life should should should show forth what it is that we want to promote.

Elizabeth Hess:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How funny you're talking about Saint Francis of Assisi, and I was thinking about, you know, being a preacher's kid. And I can smell a sermon coming a mile away, and so I work really hard on my own writing, my own directing, my own performance to never do anything didactic or heavy hitting. But it's so interesting how there is something beyond for those of us who've stepped out of formal religions, there is a way in which I do feel that my calling is inseparable from a spiritual path. As an artist, I also feel like it's part of my spiritual path.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Definitely. Number four, what changes would you like to see in the industry moving forward?

Elizabeth Hess:

There's a great deal of work that's kitchen sink, and that that's become the trope of of dramatic work, straight dramatic work. And I'm like, oh my goodness. If I see one more play with a sofa and two chairs and a kitchen off in the corner, I'm gonna shoot myself. So I would like to say, I would love to see the inclusion of symbolic worlds of play. And the moment you say that, you're actually kinda going back to Greek theater in a weird way. You're going back to ritualistic theater. And in some ways, I know, Patrick, you you do more in the musical theater world, and that isn't my world. Although it's interesting with this piece that I'm doing now, it it has soundscape and music and chant and incantation as well as tremendous physicality and text.

Elizabeth Hess:

So I am creating a kind of music theater, and then also transformative objects in that. So I would also like to say that it would be great if we weren't so siloed and that we could do work that's more multidisciplinary so that text and movement and sound and visuals and, all of these different elements of artistic expression, in the visual arts, in the dance world, in the opera world, in the theater world that they can that they that they can be inspirations for each other and create worlds that are multifaceted as opposed to being siloed, compartmentalized.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it it it takes a certain kind of artist, and and you apparently are one of those to to be able to bring that kinda other worldliness and all these kinda abstract ideas into a very concrete way that an audience can understand it, e e even in in a grand story of goddesses and and, you know, global things. Yeah.

Elizabeth Hess:

And it's all at underneath all those goddesses are some human beings with real wants and needs and longings. Mhmm. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, number five, describe a personal lesson that has taken you a while to learn or one that you are still working on to this day.

Elizabeth Hess:

I am enough. You are enough. Carl Jung said it, and I'm just gonna repeat what he said. So I can't take credit for this. But he said, you are all that you need, and you need all that you are. And I think it's such a beautiful, beautiful expression of the fullness of who we are and that there's nothing that you need to add on. All you have to do is get out of your own way. It's all there.

Elizabeth Hess:

It's always all been there, and it's just a matter of stripping away whatever keeps you from really truly living, trusting, loving that essential you that lives in your heart and to to to live your truth, to really live your truth. So go ahead. Yeah. That's that for me is like a life lesson, and and I don't think it ever ends.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh, for sure. Yeah. We're constantly learning more about ourselves as we evolve, you know, as we continue to change. And it's interesting. And this this is this is my own idea that I think that can be hard for actors to do. We we're we're so good at taking on this character or becoming this or learning about that or, you know, adding on to characters that sometimes we can lose ourselves or or forget exactly what we're bringing to the table. You know, we're we're adding on so much.

Elizabeth Hess:

Absolutely. I I remember in in my book where I when I was writing in my book, Acting and Being, explorations in embodied performance, As you were speaking, there was a a line in there that where I say something about one of the things that attracts many of us to this profession is the idea of of escape. And if there's one profession in the entire world that's gonna bring you directly to yourself, it's this one. So we start off wanting to escape. But if we really stay the course, it will bring us home to ourselves.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. And in your own exploration of as an actress, now as a director and a playwright, what has this journey brought you with? Like like, what about yourself have you been discovering lately?

Elizabeth Hess:

The sheer joy of play, hard play with others. I do feel like a two year old. I feel like I've been given the gift of being able to go into a playground without self consciousness and just be present. And that I don't have to be performative. That I don't have to be performative. It's in there. A two year old doesn't go out to the sandbox and say, I'm gonna be performative today. But they are genuinely theatrical, and it's so beautiful.

Elizabeth Hess:

I guess Picasso said that as, you know, basically, to to the artist's job is to find the child within. And I think that's something as I'm getting older, I really am having moments where I can feel what that is.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. That childlike play, that that that wonderment that

Elizabeth Hess:

that That wonderment and curiosity. Mhmm.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Well, Elizabeth, this has been such a joy to talk to you and get to pick your brain and

Elizabeth Hess:

Likewise. I'm just really, really curious to see where you and I end up, crossing paths again because I'm sure it will happen.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When I'm back in New York, yeah. Yeah. It'd be lovely to to connect.

Elizabeth Hess:

Yeah. And and and have the best time up there and and make sure you have a very warm coat.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, the it it's just been a joy to talk to to you,

Elizabeth Hess:

so thank you for coming on the podcast. My pleasure, Patrick. Thank you. Thank you. It's mutual. It's really great. Bye now.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Thank you so much for joining why I'll never make it. And don't forget, you can become a subscriber and get bonus conversations by going to whyI'llnevermakeit.com and click subscribe, or just look for the link in the show notes. Be sure to join me next time as we talk more about why I'll never make it.