(This was digitized by an automated process and may contain grammatical and typographical errors.)

Patrick Oliver Jones [00:00:06]:

One of the biggest changes in the theatre industry that I've seen over the past 10 or 15 years is the growing push and almost necessity for actors to also be creators. Whether it's in writing, directing, producing, or other facets of the developmental process, we as actors can't just sit back and wait for auditions to provide us with opportunities. It is now up to each of us to generate our own work and creative outlets. And so there have been a growing number of these multi-hyphenates who wear many different hats in this business. Rachel Lin is one such artist who was raised in New York City and became an actor, teacher, producer, as well as a writer for both stage and screen. but has found it quite a juggling act when balancing both acting and writing at the same time.

Rachel Lin [00:01:01]:

Yeah, the show I'm working on, I'm also the writer, and we keep joking that, like, hopefully soon the writer will stop changing the lines so that I can learn it as the actor.

Patrick Oliver Jones [00:01:11]:

Rachel sits down with me to discuss how theater inspired her at a young age, but also how it led her to rebel against her Chinese mother's hopes and wishes for her life. Yet, that Asian heritage and upbringing has had a great impact on her, both personally and professionally, especially as she became the Law Order franchise's first East Asian female detective in season 2 of their organized crime spinoff. But it is as a writer that she has found some of her most rewarding and frustrating moments. And when we recorded this interview, she was in the midst of production for her one-woman show.

Rachel Lin [00:01:52]:

Yes.

Patrick Oliver Jones [00:01:52]:

However, despite that designation, it takes far more than one person to produce such a show. Collaboration and creation go hand in hand for any actor who looks to go beyond simply performing on a stage. I'm Patrick Oliver Jones, and you're listening to Why I'll Never Make It.

Rachel Lin [00:02:21]:

You know, I've been very lucky. I have— I've always had really amazing rooms, and I'm pretty vocal, you know, about— I offer ideas, but none of them are like, it must be this way. And I think other people are much smarter than I am.

Patrick Oliver Jones [00:02:50]:

Welcome, Rachel.

Speaker C [00:02:51]:

Thank you so much for agreeing to be on the podcast. It's so lovely to get to talk to you today.

Rachel Lin [00:02:56]:

Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.

Speaker C [00:03:00]:

Well, as you were kind of giving me the stories and the stuff that you wanted to talk about, I was really fascinated by the fact that, you know, you were born in England. Obviously, we both share a language, but it's just ever so slightly different. So how did it compare doing schooling and the arts and all that to here in the US?

Rachel Lin [00:03:17]:

Yeah, that's a great question. So English is my first language, which is pretty, I think, unique for an immigrant. And I think English schooling where I was up in the north, I was born in Manchester, I found it pretty rigorous. I came to the States with, I would say, a higher reading level than my peers, but I also did move to an immigrant community when I moved to New York. And so a lot of my classmates were ESL, English as a Second Language. So I don't really feel like it's fair to compare like our levels because they spoke 2 languages, I spoke one. And I— when I moved here, I had to learn Chinese, um, to communicate with my caregivers. But I certainly missed English schooling.

Rachel Lin [00:03:59]:

It was a little bit more hands-on, it was a little bit more intimate, and I felt like I was exposed to the joys of reading at a really early age. So when I moved here, the thing I really fell into was reading and like using that as kind of my connection to home.

Speaker C [00:04:15]:

And when you were there in Manchester, so you're a young child, you know, is it 6, 7, 8 years old? And going through schooling, you get to do school plays. And there was one play that was about the Chinese New Year.

Patrick Oliver Jones [00:04:26]:

That's right.

Speaker C [00:04:27]:

And so tell us about getting to do this play. This was really your first time to start acting, yes?

Rachel Lin [00:04:32]:

Yeah. Oh my gosh. And Patrick, you know, tomorrow is Chinese New Year.

Speaker C [00:04:36]:

Perfect timing.

Rachel Lin [00:04:37]:

Great.

Patrick Oliver Jones [00:04:37]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel Lin [00:04:38]:

So I actually have lucky money right here.

Speaker C [00:04:41]:

Well, what is lucky money and how does that play into Chinese New Year?

Rachel Lin [00:04:45]:

I'm by no means an expert expert, uh, but lucky money is a way for people who are— if you're married, it's a custom that you give money to the unmarried people to bring in fortune. So it's kind of like a way of spreading abundance, right? So you have enough, so you, you give to others to call in more abundance. This is just my understanding.

Speaker C [00:05:05]:

I like that though.

Rachel Lin [00:05:06]:

I'm not sure. That's how we do it in practice in my family, at least. Um, yeah, I was Growing up in England, I was the only Chinese girl in my class in this neighborhood in Manchester at my public school. And so that year we did a play about Chinese New Year. It's a story about a small village that is terrorized by a dragon. And there's a young girl who fends off the dragon with the color red. She realizes that dragons are scared of the color red and loud sounds. So she gets all these firecrackers and red cloths and starts waving them around to scare off the dragon.

Patrick Oliver Jones [00:05:42]:

Wow.

Rachel Lin [00:05:43]:

And I got to play that character and it was my first play I ever did. I don't even know if you could call it a play. It wasn't really a play. It was really more just like putting small children in places and telling them to do things.

Speaker C [00:05:54]:

Right, right, exactly.

Rachel Lin [00:05:55]:

But yeah, that was my first taste of being on stage.

Speaker C [00:05:58]:

Was it daunting to go through like having to learn lines and blocking and all that?

Rachel Lin [00:06:03]:

I was probably 6 or 7, so I don't even know if I had any lines. I think they said just like run around here.

Speaker C [00:06:09]:

Run here, then go here, right.

Rachel Lin [00:06:11]:

Exactly, exactly. So at the time it wasn't daunting, but then when I got to the States, I actually did get asked to do a play maybe in the 4th grade or something to do Pocahontas. Clearly I'm not Native, but, you know, it was a different time then. And I was very daunted and very, very shy when I moved to the States. So yeah, after that, I like, after I came here, I really hated being on stage and I hated like being in the spotlight. So it was like a big shift.

Patrick Oliver Jones [00:06:39]:

Oh, interesting.

Speaker C [00:06:40]:

But then you tell me that you saw these 2 productions. One was 1776, and then one was the recorded version, the VHS version of Les Mis. And so you had very different reactions to both of these musicals.

Rachel Lin [00:06:54]:

Yeah, I saw the 1770— we went on a class trip to 1776 at Lincoln Center. I was probably in like the 4th or 5th grade. I can't remember. And I found it so incredibly boring. I had no idea what was going on. I didn't really know the history at that point. And so, gosh, I think I fell asleep. But yeah, a librarian, my librarian who became a close friend of mine because being the kid who loved reading, I became friends with my school librarian and she lent me this VHS set and I just watched it over and over again and I loved that music.

Rachel Lin [00:07:30]:

And then after that, from a young age, I was kind of a latchkey kid growing up in New York City. So I spent a lot of weekends at the performing arts library, just like borrowing those CDs, the cast album recordings. And that was kind of how I got turned on to musicals and musical theater and theater in general. Yeah, I fell in love with like listening to all that music from the library.

Speaker C [00:07:57]:

And certainly, I mean, just for my own personal taste, I can certainly understand liking Les Mis over 1776, but as a child, what was it that you responded to more one way than the other?

Rachel Lin [00:08:12]:

That's a great question. I don't know. I think I understood the story of Les Mis better, and I understood what it meant to kind of be down and out maybe. Maybe I felt like I identified with those female characters, like the orphan and like, you know, Fantine and all of that. I don't know if I understood actually what was going on. I probably didn't understand that one of the, like, you know, one was like a prostitute and like, I didn't understand any of that stuff. But I think, I think there were just so many characters and storylines to latch onto. And like the epicness of it really drew me in.

Speaker C [00:08:49]:

Obviously, watching these, these tapes and listening to the cast recordings, that was kind of your gateway into performing again. When did that spark of wanting to be on stage again come about? Since you said that you were kind of turned off from it.

Rachel Lin [00:09:06]:

Well, one thing I haven't mentioned yet is that when I moved to the States, I actually, I lived here undocumented for like 10 years. So, you know, I don't know if I totally understood what that meant as a kid, but there was this kind of like secrecy and like, don't tell your teachers where you're from and like where your family is and all this stuff. And as I got older, that was still the case even until I went to high school. And when I got to high school, I don't know, something just called me back to performing. And the first time I got to perform as like a more grown person in high school, we did You're a Good Man, Charlie Brown, and I got to play Lucy Van Pelt, which is like such a fun character.

Speaker C [00:09:54]:

Yeah.

Rachel Lin [00:09:54]:

And for the first time, I got to be like big and loud and like not girly and, you know, just kind of be my full self. And it really did feel like, oh, I feel safe in this space. I feel safe being who I am. And that was such a gift. And I think from that point on, the stage felt like a safe place and a place where I could just be, just exist without having to hide.

Speaker C [00:10:28]:

Well, this gets us right into the first story that you wanted to talk about. And this is something that we've all gone through, I think, as teenagers, and that is our rebellious phase. And specifically, Specifically, you were rebelling against what your mom wanted for you in your life. That, you know, in your case, you say that an actress daughter was not what your mother wanted. You wanted to pursue a degree in acting. So how did you reconcile these 2 conflicting points of view?

Rachel Lin [00:10:55]:

I mean, I very luckily got my green card my senior year of high school, and I went to a super high-pressure high school. It was like a high-achieving high school, really, like, big testing environment. It's in New York City, it's called Stuyvesant. And I think my mother's dream for me was to go to Stuyvesant and then go to an Ivy League school and then become a doctor. I don't know if that's still typical, but at the time that was like, I think a lot of immigrant parents have this hope for their children. And by the time I was a senior, after 4 years of this really exhausting schooling, I was just like done. I realized I wasn't smart enough. I wasn't smart enough to maintain this high level of achievement.

Rachel Lin [00:11:38]:

And my senior year, my mother was like, you're— she could tell I loved performing. And she was like, you're not allowed to apply to school for acting. So I only applied to acting schools. I only applied to drama programs. And I feel like at that point she couldn't really do anything to control me. She doesn't speak English. She couldn't help me with any of the forms. And I actually ended up getting a full ride to study acting at NYU.

Rachel Lin [00:12:05]:

So She wasn't paying for it, so I just basically did what I wanted.

Speaker C [00:12:10]:

And so did you tell her that it was for acting, or how did you get around that?

Rachel Lin [00:12:15]:

Oh yeah, so when I got into school and I told her I was going to do an acting degree, she basically tried to stage an intervention. She hired a friend, she got a friend to come and talk to me and tell me, this is such a bad decision, you're wasting your education, like all this stuff. And I was just like not having it, and By that point, we really weren't— we were talking, but she couldn't really tell me what to do. What was she going to do? Stop me from going to school? There's only so much.

Speaker C [00:12:44]:

Especially a free ride.

Rachel Lin [00:12:45]:

Yeah, exactly. I just allowed it to, I don't know, fester maybe, or just allowed— I was like, okay, well, if you don't want me to, then too bad. If you don't want to talk to me, then too bad. Eventually, we reconciled this. Later on, I think, when I was finally at school, I did a show that she had a chance to see. And I think she kind of came to terms with the fact that I'm an actor. But it was a long process. It was definitely a long process.

Speaker C [00:13:16]:

Was there any guilt or hesitation as you started acting, knowing that there was this tension between you and your mother?

Rachel Lin [00:13:23]:

I don't know about guilt, but it definitely motivated me more. Like, I felt like if this doesn't work out for me, I don't have a fallback and I don't have— I wasn't gonna go back to her like on my knees, you know? I wasn't gonna come back and say, I failed this thing, I need another chance. Like that wasn't really an option for me. So once I graduated, I said hell or high water. And also, you know, if I have to do a million gigs to get by, I will.

Speaker C [00:13:54]:

Yeah, it's like there was no safety net. You went against her wishes. And so there you were just on your own, You had to fail or succeed on your own.

Rachel Lin [00:14:01]:

Exactly, exactly right. And, you know, sometimes I'm very jealous of friends whose parents, like from a young age, when you come up with all these young actors, you know, whose parents come out and support. I didn't invite my mom to any of my shows for a long time, partly because there's a language barrier. But the other part was, you know, I never wanted her to see something that I didn't think was like perfect. So, you know, it was hard, but ultimately it's what I needed, I think, to kind of push me And as you were going through the training and everything, what types of characters attracted you the most? I played a lot of outsiders, which I think makes sense. One of my first— I don't know if it was professional because they didn't really pay us very much, but one of the first jobs I got was from Backstage. And the playwright Becca Brunstetter had just graduated from her MFA at New School, and they were doing a production of her play Fat Kids on Fire. So I was playing the the skinniest girl at fat camp.

Rachel Lin [00:15:08]:

But that role really, it was very special to me because it was her story. It was this character's story. And just getting to be an outsider who finally gets to be seen felt very resonant for me. And so after that, a lot of the roles I ended up playing are these kind of under-the-radar, kind of quiet outsiders who are finally getting attention or being seen for the first time.

Speaker C [00:15:41]:

And that outside mentality, was it because of your Asian heritage? Was it because you came from England and then to the US? Was it being undocumented? Was it kind of all of the above that gave you this sense?

Rachel Lin [00:15:53]:

I think all of those things, you know, When you're from a marginalized group or you come from a marginalized place, we all have coping mechanisms. And one of mine is like my sense of humor. And I feel like I have to laugh at being on the outside sometimes. And like that just outside looking in thing really crafted my sense, like what I thought was funny. And that translated to a lot of different parts.

Speaker C [00:16:24]:

And being in New York, I mean, certainly I come from Birmingham, Alabama. And so coming to New York, New York is this much more progressive, diverse community that I just didn't have growing up in Alabama. But for you, did it feel that diverse and that you could feel seen, that you had your own community in New York?

Rachel Lin [00:16:44]:

Oh, that's a good question. I think yes and. Like, I had a community, but I think when— because I was straddling so many different identities, I felt like in between, you know. I never felt like the— like I had my Asian friends, but I didn't really feel— but, you know, they didn't think of me as Asian in some ways. And then I had my like non-Asian friends, and like somehow I was also outside on that group. But so I think the way, especially as a teenager, things stratified in New York—

Patrick Oliver Jones [00:17:15]:

Yeah.

Rachel Lin [00:17:17]:

Made it very hard for me to find like a good fit exactly. So I was always kind of like the outside of each of those groups, and not even just race, but also like class as well. Right? Like, you know, high school was a huge culture shock because the school I was at, like, to be with kids whose fam— I think in New York you have the most, like, wage disparity possible, you know?

Speaker C [00:17:40]:

Yeah.

Rachel Lin [00:17:40]:

And so, like, to have to be with kids whose parents make loads of money and they have all the access they need with, like, 40% of the kids are living below the poverty line, you know? It's like that gap is so wild.

Patrick Oliver Jones [00:17:54]:

Yeah.

Speaker C [00:17:54]:

And it certainly comes into play with, as you were saying, the type of characters that we as actors kind of gravitate towards, those that, that either speak to us because we relate to them, or sometimes those characters that are so foreign to us, that are so different from us. Did you find yourself going for those kinds of characters as well, that, that allowed you to be something that maybe you couldn't be in your real life?

Rachel Lin [00:18:16]:

Oh, yeah, totally. I mean, I would say one of the most farthest characters from me possibly that I've ever played was on a TV show called Law and Order: Organized Crime, where I played a cop for like a season. I mean, like, just being a kid who, you know, like, being an artist, like, like, being a cop is so, so specific. And so, like, to have that kind of authority and—

Speaker C [00:18:44]:

Yeah.

Rachel Lin [00:18:45]:

that kind of confidence, I was like, whoa, this is so far from me. But it's really fun to think about, okay, in what world would I be this way? Or in what world do I embody this thing? And we do it all the time, I think, as people. We overcompensate for the things that we feel the most insecure about.

Speaker C [00:19:06]:

Oh, for sure.

Rachel Lin [00:19:07]:

And I always find that's a fascinating way to get into a character is when When we're trying to push ourselves far from what we are and make it and make ourselves something else.

Patrick Oliver Jones [00:19:21]:

Yeah.

Speaker C [00:19:21]:

As you were describing that, it made me think, do you tend to let the words speak for it? Do you tend to bring your own imagination as to what this character is doing? Like, where do you tend to find your access point into a character?

Rachel Lin [00:19:37]:

I always start with the text. I think the text is the most important thing. And I'm sure we all feel this way, but I always feel like because I was, you know, I had to fit into all these different groups, I feel quite like, oh yeah, I could be that like emo girl or I could be that goth kid. It's just a matter of like, what is the switch that makes you choose that path, you know? And so, I love thinking about that. And I always, you know, characters that are like the woman that wants to just get married, you know, I'm not there, but I'm like, that's not who I am. But I'm like, oh yeah, I can totally see all the forces that push somebody into that direction and what walls they don't have versus the ones that I do have, you know, and who they're talking to and things like that. So I just feel like we're all just one decision away from being a totally different person, like everybody on this planet, right? And so, you know, it's just a matter of making that one choice and then seeing who we become.

Speaker C [00:21:03]:

Well, for your next story, you've touched on it before, but it deals with not seeing yourself on screen and on stage that reflects who you are. Now, was this simply not seeing other Chinese or Asian actors, or was it something more than that?

Rachel Lin [00:21:16]:

Yeah, I think growing up in the, like, late '90s, early 2000s, there definitely weren't a lot of Chinese people on TV, especially not ones that spoke English. You know, there was like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.

Speaker C [00:21:30]:

I was thinking of that exact same thing. I was trying to think of Asian movies before then like maybe Joy Luck Club or something like that. But Tiger was probably the one that stuck out to me the most, like, oh, this is like a mainstream movie that features this kind of culture and language.

Rachel Lin [00:21:44]:

Yeah, but even then it's quite like, you know, traditional Chinese. It's set in a different time. It's like dynastic China, you know? So I don't feel super close to that. And even now to this day, I don't often play like Chinese characters from China just because I sound like this. And even though I can speak Chinese, you know, I— yeah, so I didn't, I didn't feel like I saw myself really on TV. And I think that really does something to your psychology when everyone who looks like you is a best friend or comedic relief, you know. It limits what you believe your own stories can be.

Speaker C [00:22:19]:

Yeah.

Rachel Lin [00:22:19]:

To not see somebody who looks like you be a lead in a romantic comedy, you know, that, that makes you ask questions whether consciously or subconsciously, I think, about what you deserve and who might see you. And also, like, I think the standard of beauty is a big, big topic that hasn't really— that, like, is always talked about and can apply to many groups. But I think That was definitely challenging and motivated me also to kind of try to change that or just try to, you know, be part of a movement or a group of people and artists who are trying to create more visibility for East Asian artists.

Patrick Oliver Jones [00:23:10]:

But there's also—

Speaker C [00:23:11]:

so it's not just how other people are treating them, it's how we then respond to that character. It's like, oh, is that how people see me? Is that what people assume of me whenever I meet them for the first time or interact with them.

Rachel Lin [00:23:24]:

Yeah. And so like you're constantly being— you're reactive, or I don't know, I was. I'll speak for myself, you know, just trying to like get ahead of somebody's perception of me or ideas of me based on what's in popular consciousness. I think it's a big part of why I ended up being so bad at math, because there's this like stereotype that Asian people are good at math. And I was like, well, I don't want to be like all Asian people. So I'm going to fail math. I probably would have, probably maybe could have been a doctor if I didn't feel that way.

Speaker C [00:23:58]:

Well, as far as an artist, did it also have you push back against certain roles or certain character types in theater as well?

Rachel Lin [00:24:07]:

I don't know if I consciously push back, but I've noticed that I don't tend to play a lot of written-for-East-Asian characters actually. And that's just my path. And I don't think that's true for every East Asian actor. But for For example, I've never worked with a lot of the very established New York East Asian theater companies. And I think that's just because I don't feel like I'm Asian first. You know what I mean? I'm really more interested in storytelling. That just has put me in rooms where it's not necessarily about my ethnicity.

Speaker C [00:24:44]:

Yeah, I've spoken to people who are Hispanic, and maybe they didn't grow up speaking Spanish. That's not their first language. Their culture is more US. whether they're in New York or some other city, whereas for their parents, that's their first language, that's their first culture. And so there can be a disconnect of, well, am I culturally enough? Am I really in this community or am I not? It seems like you've kind of had that push and pull as well.

Rachel Lin [00:25:08]:

Yeah, 1,000%. And I speak Chinese, you know, I speak Cantonese, but I feel like it's cultural. It's like I culturally don't feel very Chinese maybe, or maybe it's like the rebellious thing or something. Like, um, you know, I think Chinese or East Asian culture really prizes filial piety and just like, and like following orders, and I don't tend to like lead with that. So I don't know, maybe people can just smell it on me that I'm not— I have, I'm kind of trouble in that regard.

Speaker C [00:25:44]:

And so does that affect the way that maybe you you walk into audition rooms or that kind of thing that, you know, it's about how we look, it's about how we talk, it's about how we move our bodies, how we present these characters. Does that play into what energy you bring into an audition room?

Rachel Lin [00:26:00]:

I think so. I think so. I mean, you know, I can remember auditioning for a lot of these East Asian theater companies when I was younger. And I always felt really like, In my own head, I would tell myself, okay, just be demure. Don't be too forward, or I don't know. I felt like I played myself down a little bit rather than feeling like it was a comfortable place for me. I never felt like I was stepping into warm water. You know what I mean? When you're in a pool, getting into a pool that you're like, oh yeah, I can swim in here comfortably.

Rachel Lin [00:26:40]:

There's always something a little bit that felt like, oh, I'm nervous in a way that doesn't feel good. So I think so. But then, you know, auditions are so interesting. I just think like, as I've gotten older, it really has been about auditioning the room too. Like feeling— it's like both sides. And I feel like you can tell when the working relationship is going to be good when the people on the other side of the table don't make you feel nervous. You know, they make you feel like—

Speaker C [00:27:10]:

Yeah.

Rachel Lin [00:27:11]:

Okay, we're collaborators, and we just want to see what you're going to do.

Speaker C [00:27:15]:

Yeah, I've definitely been in those rooms where it just feels so warm. And when it feels like you can't make a mistake in the audition room, that's whenever I feel the most free. When it's like, oh, I really can just, like, work at this. I don't need to, like, be on, perform. I don't need to be at 100%. I can kind of figure this out together with you. It just takes the pressure off. It just takes all that anxiety.

Speaker C [00:27:40]:

Oh, for at least for me, it takes that away.

Rachel Lin [00:27:42]:

Yeah, 1000%. And I think it takes a very specific, a very mature artist, like on the other side of the table to do that too. You know, I feel like, oh yeah, this director or this, this group of artists like really know what they're doing and they're, yeah, they've got their stuff together.

Patrick Oliver Jones [00:28:00]:

Yeah.

Speaker C [00:28:01]:

There's just this sense of when you're in an audition room where maybe it's they don't know you or maybe they, you know, They just come from a different place. And so you really have to, like, prove yourself rather than there are those who are just, like, sitting back and letting you bring whatever you want to them rather than these expectations put on you. It's just, yeah, there's just a different sense. It's, it's so small, but it's, it's definitely palatable in the room.

Rachel Lin [00:28:27]:

Yeah, 1000%.

Speaker C [00:28:29]:

And you had mentioned being on Law Order and how that character was maybe different from who you are and figuring that out. Has that, that type of character work, and since you got to play her over several episodes, did that maybe inform you of the kind of work that you can do or start to change how you perform or how you even present yourself, whether in an audition or in a performance?

Rachel Lin [00:28:52]:

I don't know about how I perform, but I will say that was a huge learning curve being in a machine that big. I don't think I had ever been in an operation that was that had so many moving parts. And it was like height of COVID too, so there was also like testing and everything on top of everything.

Patrick Oliver Jones [00:29:10]:

Yeah.

Rachel Lin [00:29:10]:

But just the amount of change that you have to be prepared for, like from getting the script to the actual shoot day, like I completely had to, you know, I learned, oh, you can't have any expectations of how a scene is going to go because somebody's going to walk in here and say, nope, we're not shooting this at all. We're not shooting what's written on this page at all, you know. And that might mean you don't get to say it. You might go from, like, 5 lines to no lines, and that's just the way it is. And there's no challenging that, especially when you were where I was on the call sheet, right?

Speaker C [00:29:44]:

So...

Rachel Lin [00:29:46]:

So, yeah, it was just like an exercise in surrender in so many ways because everybody else is making decisions for and around you, right? Like, I don't get to choose what I wear or how I look, right? Even if I hate it, I don't get to— like, wearing my hair that certain way, it's just like, okay, now I just have to roll with that.

Speaker C [00:30:04]:

Right.

Rachel Lin [00:30:04]:

that. Like, this is the person I am and I wear my hair like this, and the end. And so that— I actually think that's really freeing because instead of trying to use my crayon to color what I want, I'm like coloring within these lines. But within those lines, I get a lot of freedom. And then also, of course, just watching brilliant actors working is such a gift.

Speaker C [00:30:26]:

Yeah, it is interesting how when you have less choices, it can be more freeing. It's like, oh, I don't have to worry about But any of that other stuff, I have these 2 lines.

Patrick Oliver Jones [00:30:35]:

Yeah, that's all I have to worry about.

Speaker C [00:30:37]:

You just have to focus on the one thing rather than the 12 things.

Rachel Lin [00:30:41]:

Yeah, exactly. And keeping your imagination still alive within that.

Speaker C [00:30:46]:

Right, right, of course. But your imagination is now more focused. It's now in this small little bubble rather than, you know, encompassing everything and you're having to take it all in and do—

Rachel Lin [00:30:55]:

yeah.

Speaker C [00:30:56]:

In some ways for me, I always like Like having smaller goals, smaller expectations, so that way I know where I'm at. If I have to like encompass everything and do it all, it can seem overwhelming to me.

Rachel Lin [00:31:08]:

1,000%. I'm just thinking about that in terms of like, now I'm working on the solo show where I feel like I have so many decisions to make, and it feels like, you know, as the writer and the performer, it's just like, oh, so overwhelming when you're like, oh wait, I'm holding all the crayons.

Speaker C [00:31:47]:

Well, let us get into the 3rd story that you wanted to talk about, and this is Making that solo show. It really is a huge feat that requires so many collaborators, and you have to do so much. You have to bring in so many people, and you're really the one in charge, kind of delegating all those different things. So what was the impetus for creating that in the first place?

Rachel Lin [00:32:08]:

Well, you know, this, like, true story happened to me, and as it was happening, I just thought, this is a really unique story, and it's a true story. And I think This is relatable, you know? So just to like name the story, basically when I was 22, my estranged father Facebook messaged me. I didn't know who he was. I didn't know his name. I had never met him. And then he started writing me letters, and I never replied to the letters until one year he wrote that he was really sick and I might not hear from him again. So that year I bought a ticket to London and I met him for the first time. And I think it was on the plane ride to London.

Rachel Lin [00:32:49]:

It was my first time going back to England after I had moved to the States. As I was on that plane ride going back there, I was like, holy shit, once you meet somebody, you can't unmeet them. So this felt like a crossroads or a turning point almost about knowing about myself or knowing myself better. And I thought people might I think this is relatable. And this cross-intersection of technology and connection, I think, is really interesting, how we can suddenly make much easier connections through technology. But the depth of those connections, I think, is so up for grabs. A Facebook message is so impersonal, but at the same time, it's so personal depending on who's sending it. And so just thinking about all those things and the unique circumstances of my mother going to England, which is a random place, like a very random place, and then coming to New York and kind of growing up around like garment factories and then ending up working in retail, like all these things kind of coalesced and I felt like, oh, this is the tapestry of a really interesting story.

Speaker C [00:34:04]:

And what was it that What kept you from responding to those initial letters?

Rachel Lin [00:34:11]:

What kept me? Probably rage. Like, probably anger coupled with, what would I say? I didn't know what I would say, you know? Like, how are— you know, everything felt too mundane to, like, write back. And so I just, like, never wrote back.

Speaker C [00:34:29]:

Even though you didn't know him, was there a sense of father as you were growing up? Was there a feeling that you were missing something? I grew up without a father as well, and it was one of those things things where I can think of moments, but there came a point in which it's like, that was just my life. And so I didn't really like think about it. I didn't really like harp on it. It was just, well, that's just my life. And I went on. But then I remember when I was 30, and I was going through a divorce. So that was probably part of it too. But, but then I saw this movie, Road to Perdition, that's all about the father.

Speaker C [00:35:01]:

And just watching that was like, oh, This has been something that I've missed that I haven't really known was missing. Did you experience anything like that?

Rachel Lin [00:35:11]:

Yeah, I definitely relate to the this is just my life part for sure. I think that's, especially as kids, and if you grew up without a father at a very young age, there's no acclimating because they were never there. So it's like, okay, yeah, this is just my life. But yeah, definitely. I think the presence of absence is kind of unavoidable. I think because of the way society was at that time, the typical family had 2 parents, usually a father. And so I definitely felt that absence younger, and maybe that made me feel embarrassed or I don't know. I think I did a lot of trying not to acknowledge it.

Rachel Lin [00:35:56]:

even when you're younger and people are, especially when people think like kids think a lot about their weddings, I guess, or like girls are marketed, like marriage is something that gets marketed to like little girls. Just that idea of like father-daughter dance or who's going to walk you down the aisle, all this kind of stuff. It's just like, oh yeah, I can't think about this. Or, you know.

Patrick Oliver Jones [00:36:15]:

Yeah.

Speaker C [00:36:15]:

It's interesting. I was watching this show that it was the same kind of thing where you could tell that character-wise, the father and the daughter just weren't really that close growing up. And, you know, so now they're adults, and they're just kind of talking at each other, but not really. But then he does something where she always wanted him to build her a castle and do, like, a little afternoon tea with her daddy growing up, but that never happened. And so then he makes this thing and brings her outside and shows this castle that he built out of wood. And they go in and they do it, you know? So it's this, like, tender moment when they're adults of him trying to kind of, like, make up for And it's interesting as adults now to kind of process what a father or a parent means in any way.

Rachel Lin [00:37:02]:

Yeah. And I think that's really what my show is about too. It's about expectations. Expectations of one another. I think maybe that's part of why I didn't respond either, right? I had an expectation of how I thought my father should be to me, and he wasn't meeting that. And that's probably what I was angry about. But also, he had expectations of me too, that he thought He states very clearly in his letters to me. And so the same way that my mother has expectations of me, right? Like not an artist daughter, not an actress daughter, right? So—

Patrick Oliver Jones [00:37:32]:

But at least she was there.

Speaker C [00:37:33]:

So to hear her expectations is very different from someone who was never there expecting something of you.

Rachel Lin [00:37:39]:

Exactly. That's exactly right. Yeah. And so, you know, that's a lot of what I'm dealing with and talking about in the show. And I hope folks can, like, find that relatable.

Speaker C [00:37:50]:

Now, in going through the show, having to write it, having to figure out the stories and the narrative you wanted to tell, it's obviously very personal to you. So you're navigating the emotions as you're trying to explain them and make them dramatic on stage.

Rachel Lin [00:38:05]:

I guess so. Yeah. I'm— I don't— I kind of try to stay away from sentimentality as much as I can. I do go into the past a bit, but I think the emotionality, I don't really think about that too much, actually. I use a lot of found doc— like, I use found text, so I use his letters, and I use audio, recorded audio that I didn't record. And I think that's very helpful for me. Right. Yeah.

Rachel Lin [00:38:32]:

Originally, the show was just gonna be kind of a collage of these things that I didn't write. But as I was working on it with my director, different directors through the years, and dramaturgs, everybody's always like, oh, but what were you thinking? What were you thinking? So I kind of obligingly put some of my own stuff in there because people kept asking me questions.

Speaker C [00:38:50]:

So now people are expecting something of you.

Rachel Lin [00:38:53]:

Yeah. Apparently, you can't make a show without, like, telling stuff about yourself.

Speaker C [00:38:58]:

Yeah. Well, especially if it's a solo show. It's like, yeah, you're the perspective we want to hear.

Rachel Lin [00:39:03]:

Yeah, unfortunately.

Speaker C [00:39:05]:

But there are obviously, as you're saying, there are other people involved. There are other collaborators. Was it difficult at any moment to delegate things to a director, a dramaturg, a set designer, you know, all these different people that you're bringing No, I mean, I've always, you know, I've been very lucky.

Rachel Lin [00:39:22]:

I have— I've always had really amazing rooms, and I'm pretty vocal, you know, about— I offer ideas, but none of them are like, it must be this way. And I think other people are much smarter than I am. So, when a sound designer— I have a great sound designer right now. His name is Minjae Kim, you know, and we read the script, and then people have responses. And I think they pitch me, and I pitch them, and it's just a matter of, like, the best idea wins, you know?

Patrick Oliver Jones [00:39:47]:

Yeah.

Speaker C [00:39:48]:

And anytime along the process, was there a moment when either you weren't sure if you wanted to continue on or if it ran out of resources, or were there moments where it might not have happened?

Rachel Lin [00:39:59]:

Oh my God, like yesterday. Yeah. Yesterday I'm sitting in the car.

Speaker C [00:40:03]:

I'm like, what am I doing? Every day.

Rachel Lin [00:40:04]:

Every day. This is crazy. Yeah. There's like, there's no money for theater or like theater at this scale, I think. I've had trouble, you know, lots of reasons to not do something. Hard to find resources. But, you know, something happened last year. I lost a really good friend of mine who was an artist.

Rachel Lin [00:40:28]:

Their name was Zaza, Diana O. And they made a solo piece that I saw that really, really inspired me. And I've been working on this show since 2019. And one of my biggest regrets is that I never invited Zaza to come and see it.

Patrick Oliver Jones [00:40:43]:

Oh.

Rachel Lin [00:40:43]:

And so just like the combination of time is finite, when else are we going to do something, you know, just kind of pushed me to say, okay, let me just find the money whenever I can, open credit cards when I need to, and like make it happen. You know, the industry doesn't wait for us and time doesn't wait for us. And the show is about the past. And as I get older, I'm like, well, I'm not always going to want to be playing myself at 5 years old for, you know, forever. So I should probably do it while I can still, like, hop around, hop off a table and stuff.

Speaker C [00:41:24]:

Well, in doing this process, I mean, yeah, you're creating your own art. You're not waiting for someone else. Now, auditioning and doing other people's work, How has it impacted or how has it changed the way that you approach when you're auditioning for other people's work?

Rachel Lin [00:41:42]:

Yeah, I'm definitely a lot less precious about it. I think having to— when you create, I think having to make your own work forces you to define your true north. Like, this is what I want to say and this is who I am as an artist. So I think it makes everything so much clearer in terms of work that resonates with you. I think when we start out, everybody's like, oh, I want to play any part, and I could be—

Patrick Oliver Jones [00:42:05]:

Right, I can do anything.

Rachel Lin [00:42:06]:

Yeah, I can do anything. The question is, do you want to? Right? Like, there's so much work out there that, you know, is just not for me, and I'm not for them, and that's okay. And as I'm reading pieces and can— not that like everybody's banging down my door, but when I read a piece, I do think like, oh yeah, what can I bring to this part that's interesting to me? and might be interesting to the people who are making this. But it also just forces me to say, like, I value this story more than maybe this other story, and I'm excited about this story more. So like, for me specifically with this piece, it's really brought into the foreground like, oh yeah, I want to tell immigrant stories. I want to tell stories about people doing what they need to survive and maybe in the hopes of thriving. Like, that to me feels really clear. And I hope that like more of these stories come my way.

Speaker C [00:43:08]:

And we were talking about it earlier about either breaking away or challenging identity and identity politics itself, just as a culture, but also in the arts has changed over, over the decades. Do you feel now more connected to your Asian culture, less connected? Like, what is your connection with it now at this point?

Rachel Lin [00:43:29]:

I'm like really proud and excited about all the work that's been happening in the last 10 years. I haven't seen it yet, but there's this like new Bridgerton with like, with the Asian love interest, East Asian love interest. Like, that's so exciting to me. So I hope the thing we're moving toward is like less Asian quote-unquote stories and just more like human stories. Like more, you know, I think there are a lot of East Asian artists who are like doing this. Like Steph Hsu, I think is so fun and always does interesting work in that like movie Joyride with just like 4 friends who are like going on a girls trip. I'm excited about seeing Asian people in stories that aren't just about being Asian.

Speaker C [00:44:14]:

And that's Yeah, it's like no matter what face you see, no matter what body is up there, there's a human story to be told.

Rachel Lin [00:44:24]:

And you—

Speaker C [00:44:25]:

there's a way into this story no matter what you look like, no matter where you come from. And I personally love those kind of stories when it's something that I can relate to in that way.

Rachel Lin [00:44:34]:

Yeah, I agree. And I think it's so needed too. I mean, and not just like race and ethnicity, but also sexuality and like gender identity and all of that. status, national status. I think we're in a very interesting— I don't want to bring up politics, but in order to get to where this country is, I think there has to be some kind of block in terms of empathy and understanding, and just clearly some people are not taking in these stories that humanize other kinds of people, and so I think that's the way that we end up where we are. That people can't see themselves in other people's shoes.

Speaker C [00:45:12]:

It's interesting that you bring that up because I think for any actor, being the bad guy is fun. It's delicious. You know, you're saying things, you're doing things, your physicality is different. It's fun to be these, like, evil people that are so different from who we are. Being the bad guy can be fun. And I think in some way, it's more fun to kind of find differences and react to things than it can be the harder work of sitting down, relating, understanding, as you were saying, empathy. That's harder work and not as fun because, you know, you just have to like actually talk about things, you know, rather than just react and then people say, yeah, yeah. And then you move on.

Speaker C [00:45:54]:

And so I think it's interesting how the arts reflect so much of society, no matter what generation it is.

Rachel Lin [00:46:02]:

Yeah, that's— and like, the thing I think I'm thinking about now with like playing a villain, it's just like, oh, those are the people who care the most, and they're like the most deeply hurt people, and I think that's true in what we're seeing now is like, I think there's a generation of people who feel really like hurt, and need to be seen in some way, or validated in some way, so that maybe they can stop hurting other people.

Speaker C [00:46:27]:

Well, yeah, it's that quintessential thing about putting someone else down so that you can feel better, in some, some which way. And as children, and it seems like many people are acting like children these days, is that, is that we just react and like, you know, lash out at those that are different and just make ourselves feel better. Yeah, it's, it's fun to play that on stage, but it's, oh, it's tough when that bleeds over into real life.

Rachel Lin [00:46:50]:

Yeah.

Speaker C [00:46:51]:

Yeah. In your own story about your father and, and doing the solo work, has it brought more empathy to you? Has it brought more closure, if that's what you want to call it, just more understanding of going through this particular part of your life?

Rachel Lin [00:47:06]:

Oh yeah, definitely. I would say I have a lot more empathy for myself as a young person and my behavior as a young person. And the other thing is like my mother, you know, she— her audio. So I have like audio recording of her, and every time I listen to it in the show and in arena rehearsal, I really feel like I understand her so much better, you know? And that's been a gift. And I actually, I didn't tell her that I was going to use this recording I made of her in the show. And I don't recommend doing this. It's like not ethical to do this, but you know, we have a very interesting relationship. So when she came to see the show for the first time, she was like, oh my God, I'm in the show.

Rachel Lin [00:47:53]:

And I was like, yeah, you And that was such a gift because I think she never imagined that anybody would care about her story. You know, I think it was, like, unfathomable to her. And really, she's, like, the heart of this story and of my show. So that's really been a beautiful thing.

Speaker C [00:48:12]:

And is she more excited, happy about this life that you've chosen that she originally didn't want you to have?

Rachel Lin [00:48:20]:

I think she is way more understanding and understands that, you know, it's not necessarily about success or like material outcome. I think she understands that I have a deep passion for telling stories and there's like really nothing— yeah, and I think she's understanding the power of stories through the work I'm making.

Speaker C [00:48:46]:

Well, it's certainly been wonderful to hear your stories and to get to dive into the things that you've been working on. So thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Rachel Lin [00:48:54]:

Thank you, Patrick. This has been so nice.

Patrick Oliver Jones [00:49:02]:

Well, thank you so much for joining us today. And remember, you can get early access to our full conversation by going to yalnai.com.

Speaker C [00:49:11]:

nevermakeit.com and click subscribe.

Patrick Oliver Jones [00:49:14]:

Well, that about does it for this episode. I'm your host, Patrick Oliver Jones, in charge of writing, editing, and producing this podcast. Background music is from John Bartman, and the theme song, that was created by me. Stay tuned for the next episode when I ask the final 5 questions and we talk more about Why I'll Never Make It.