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[0:00] Patti LuPone: Hi, I'm Patti LuPone, and you're listening to, And the Tony Goes To...

[0:21] Ilana Levine: Have you ever dreamed of winning a Tony Award? Did you ever practice your Tony acceptance speech in the bathroom mirror? Did you grow up watching the Tony Awards every year? Do you have a collection of Tony Award shows on VHS tape that you refuse to throw out? Well then this is the podcast for you. Every week I interview your favorite Tony Award winners, and together we go down memory lane as my guests share intimate and never before shared details about their Tony experience. By the end of every episode you're going to feel like you just won a Tony. Welcome to, And the Tony Goes To... I'm your host, Ilana Levine. Welcome today's Tony winner, Patti LuPone.

[1:06] Ilana Levine: And the American Theatre Wing's Tony Award goes to...

[1:11] Patti LuPone: Patti LuPone. Thank you so much. It's such a wonderful gift to be an actor who makes her living working on the Broadway stage, and then every 30 years or so, pick up one of these. I was afraid to write a speech because I'd written a couple before and they never made it out of my purse. So I'm going to use one of the old ones and add a few names. I want to send out first and foremost all of my love to my husband Matt and my son Joshua. I would be dead without both of you. And to our extended family of friends. This won't take long, I promise. I want to thank my singing teachers, the one I forgot to mention the last time I stood up here, 28 years ago, David Vosburgh. Esther Scott, my high school inspiration, and the teacher who taught me how to sing, Joan Lader.

All of my agents, especially Nevin, Gary, and Phillip. Carol Shorenstein-Hayes, because I said I would. The acting company, John and Margo, Second Stage Theater, Robin and Carol, Lincoln Center Theater, Bernie and Andre, City Center Encores, Jack, Michael, Judy, and Arlene. The Ravinia Festival where my involvement with Gypsy first began. Thank you, Wells and Lonnie. And for Gypsy itself, thank you, Julie, Steve, my beloved Arthur, who assembled and directed the finest, most dedicated cast of actors I have ever had the privilege of working with, and who is an inspiration to all of us in the theater. Thank you, Bonnie, to the designers of Gypsy, the backstage crew, front of house, stage management, ghosts of the St. James Theater, my trusted friend and company manager, Sammy, the dressing room, Angelina, Vanessa, Lyle, and my very own Thelma Ritter, friend and wrangler, Pat, who gives me a shot every single night.

[3:08] Ilana Levine: Tell me everything that went through your mind while you were listening to that.

[3:15] Patti LuPone: Oh, God. I remember all of it. I had a broken toe that I broke. It was a crazy time. We had a property down in South Carolina on a barrier island, and it needed to be landscaped. And for some reason, I thought during Tony voting season, I needed to get down there and plant. And so my friend, Nancy, who's a gardener, landscape architect, and I got on a flight after a Sunday performance, and it was delayed. So we didn't get to the island until two in the morning. And the people were coming with all of these plantings at eight. And I'm thinking, oh, my God, I didn't get any sleep. I'm not going to be awake when all this is going on. And I made the bed, and I hit my right toe on one of the legs, and it went, and I went, oh, wow.

And then I looked at my toe, and I went, that's better. And I actually broke it. And I should have just iced it, but I went ahead and broke it. And then I proceeded to go through the whole day of people planting. And then we got on the plane that night to go, or was it the next day, whatever, to get back to New York City. And I had a broken toe. Dr. Baumann said, oh, I don't think it's broken. Then they took an x-ray and went, yep, it's broken. So I thought, what, this on top of everything else, campaigning, not campaigning, because we don't campaign for the Tonys, but giving those performances every single night in the month of May for the Tony voters, it's up in high gear, on a broken toe.

And then when they wanted me to perform on it, I wasn't in shoes. I was in Isotoners, because the costumer said, well, we'll just cut out the side. I said, I can't wear Isotoners on the Tony. So they cut out the toe part, the pinky toe part of the shoe, and put, you know, elastic or something on it so that I could actually wear the show shoes. I don't know how I got through it. I don't know how I got through it. I don't. I sat in my seat. I was, as we all are, nobody wants to lose. Everybody wants to win. But I was afraid I was going to lose. And when I won, it was sort of like, great, I can pull out this very funny speech. And it was, you know, it's always a relief when you win. It's not that it's not a relief.

You're nominated. That's already sort of an affirmation of a performance that's been, you know, accredited by your peers. But when you win, it's a real affirmation of a performance well done. So I can't imagine anybody saying, I don't care if I won or not, really speaking the truth. And winning for that part with all the controversy behind it. I don't know if you know this story, Ilana, but I was banned from Arthur's work. And I always, you know, it's why me? What the hell did I do? I was offered a play. I came home from London and I was offered a play called Jolson Sings Again. And I was emotionally and spiritually raw from the Sunset Boulevard experience. And I was not prepared to do anything but take the money and run.

And I got a call from Scott Rudin and Robert Fox, and they came up to the House in Connecticut and they, I read the play. I didn't much care for the play. It was Arthur's version of, I believe, Jerry Robbins singing to the House Un-American Activities Committee. It was a play about an agent, her husband, a director, and a playwright. And it was filled with a lot of angst and Dermot Strang. And it was not something that I wanted to get involved with. And I said, you know, I'm, this is hard for me. I'm, where are we doing this? Dan Sullivan was going to direct it. We were going to do it at Seattle Rep. And I said, I don't want to go to Seattle having just come home from London. I turned it down.

Then it came to me again and it was going off Broadway. And I went and met Arthur, who I hadn't met before. And I think his name is David, and David Sank, who was going to direct it. And I did not want to do it because I looked at David Sank and I went, he's got no chin. He's not going to direct me. So I turned it down again. And that's when Arthur banned me from his work. I could not do anything, including Gypsy. And I thought, just because I turned down a play? Then he had, so, but he'd had no jurisdiction over concert versions at Ravinia, which is where we did it.

[8:12] Ilana Levine: Got it. So that's how you got to do it with Lonnie Price directing.

[8:15] Patti LuPone: Exactly. And it created a buzz, enough of a buzz that Broadway producers were interested. And when we got back to New York, nothing was happening. And Lonnie, I was told by Scott Rudin to call Arthur myself. And that was one of the most difficult phone calls I've ever had to make in my career. This guy hated me and I'm going to call him up and beg for Gypsy. I called him, he was expecting my call. I said, hello, Arthur, this is Patty. And he said, hi, Patty. He immediately complimented me on my performance in Sweeney Todd and started to talk about casting for Gypsy. And I went, holy shit, I cannot believe this. And so the Tony award was, it sort of erased all of that negative energy that had been on me for a long period of time, maybe two, three, four, five years.

Arthur hates me. I can't do any of his plays. Why does he hate me? What did I do? I just turned down a play. Show business is tough. It's not, you know that, it's not for the faint of heart. So it was a relief that that happened, that I won to get rid of all of that bad energy. And it was a relief to have won because it isn't an easy part. It's, I mean, it was an easy part for me to sing, but the energy that that part requires, the first 20 minutes, one point, Boyd and I came off stage panting and I went, and this was, we were three months into the run and it was, it was a Grant Zegers, Grant Zegers scene. And we came off stage panting and I went, I'm not going to make it. And I'm not going to make it.

So the energy that the role requires is, is it's Olympian. It's, it's incredible. So it was sort of an affirmation of all of that stuff. You achieved it, Patty, you did it. You, you got over, you got negative energy out the window and you did it at your age, because I was too old for the role. I kept calling myself grandma Rose. It's true. I'm just blessed with this Italian peasant energy. That's great. I still have. And, and like I said, it was, it was an incredible relief. You know, you don't, you don't expect to win. I think everybody wants to win it. You don't necessarily expect to win because the disappointment is incredibly painful. So you just hope you're, you know, you were,

[10:54] Patti LuPone: I am afraid. I'm afraid at that point. I wish the Tonys were what the Drama Desk is doing now, or the Drama League did rather, where they're honoring five performances as opposed to making it a competition. I feel as though it would celebrate the community in a much healthier way. If you said these were the five best performances, these were the five best set designs, these were the five best costume designs, these were the five best directors, it would celebrate theater and draw attention to all of the shows, as opposed to pinpointing one actor, one scenic designer, one play, one musical.

[11:38] Ilana Levine: Right. When Gypsy first happened at City Center, the encore series there, did you know that that was a sort of midpoint before going to Broadway? Was that always the intention, or did you not know that it would have a life after that?

[11:56] Patti LuPone: No, we didn't know. We were just doing it at City Center. And then how did the move happen?

[12:03] Patti LuPone: Well, when it was as successful as it was, Arthur and I had to go and basically beg producers to produce it on Broadway. What was he like?

[12:14] Ilana Levine: Arthur?

[12:15] Patti LuPone: Yeah. When he demolished me, I was shooting a film in Montreal, I think it was, and I had a day off, and he found me in my hotel room. And when I had turned down the play the second time, the off-Broadway production, he demolished me. Emotionally and spiritually demolished me over the phone. I was shocked. I couldn't speak. I hung up the phone and burst into tears. And that's when he banned me from his work. And that was what I was left with. When we did City Center, his partner of 50 years had just died, Tom Hatcher. And this is true. I don't know if this is true. This is what I have been told, that on Tom's deathbed, he said to Arthur, you have to do Gypsy with Patty. Not for my sake, but for Arthur's sake, to keep Arthur alive. And so Arthur did Gypsy with me out of his love and devotion to his partner of 50 years who had just died.

[13:28] Patti LuPone: So Arthur came to that rehearsal period in a state of love, a state of grace, a state of generosity. And he was 89, and he had more energy than the entire cast put together. And he was so warm. I mean, that's an understatement. Just this love and this ebullience poured out of this man toward us, toward this cast. And there was nothing we wouldn't do for him. There was nothing we wouldn't do for him. And that, I think, is a unique experience in Arthur's legacy, because he's a tough guy. He was a tough guy. He was an exacting man. And there was, I think, a whole generation of New York creators that operated out of that kind of intimidation. And I've told you this before, it does not give you a better performance. It doesn't have people want to give a better performance. It just destroys you when you start to go on.

[14:53] Ilana Levine: Well, in reading your memoir, the one thing John Hausman prepared you for was that kind of room. You sort of really like, you know, you came up in that.

[15:01] Patti LuPone: Yeah, you're right. Absolutely. So the creative team behind the writing of Gypsy include Stephen Sondheim and Julie Stein.

[15:18] Ilana Levine: Was Julie Stein around when you guys did it at Encores?

[15:25] Patti LuPone: No, he was dead at that point. He was dead. Steve was around. And, you know, I don't know how often Steve wants to sit in a Gypsy rehearsal. However. But, you know, he was, you know, he was very lovely and very supportive. And, you know, we had a remarkable time at City Center. One thing that I never knew Ilana and the stage manager and his name is escaping me now because my mind is mush in quarantine. I can't remember anything. He did not bring the curtain in on our closing night. And he said that if you do not bring a curtain down at the end of a show, the show will have another life. I never knew that.

[16:12] Ilana Levine: Oh, great. So he left the curtain.

[16:20] Patti LuPone: Yes. He left the curtain. So we thank him. Curtain up. Curtain up. Light the lights. Wow. That's incredible. So are there things that, you know, I did a tremendous amount of reading about sort of the history of your production and something that came up a lot was something really unique to your rehearsal process. I don't think musicals always work this way, which is you guys really sat around a table and worked on the play that is the center of Gypsy. Did Arthur share with you things when you think back now to that rehearsal experience that he did he have sort of keys that helped you open up the understanding of this character? Were there things he said and conversations you can recall working on the script in that way?

[17:15] Patti LuPone: Absolutely. And let me tell you why we worked on the script. And it's true. On musicals, if you have a book, that's generally the last thing you work on. When Arthur, when we were going to do this at City Center, City Center gave Arthur three weeks and he wanted three weeks of rehearsal. They didn't give him three weeks of rehearsal with the entire cast. So he asked for the first week just to be the 11 principles and we wouldn't sing, no music, nothing. And they gave him that. So for the first week of rehearsal, we had table reads and we started the lyrics, which doesn't happen. It never happens. And that book could stand alone without the music. It is such a brilliant book. And so we, so, and, and, and, and Steve was, I mean, Arthur was not happy with the Sam Mendes production at all.

And what he did, he wanted to direct, he wanted to direct this production. And what he did was he brought in the Time Daily 1989 prompt book and stage managers, because he felt that was the last successful production of Gypsy. So we had these gentlemen who were fantastic. I just loved them. But there was Arthur and we start to read the play and he, he, he laid off me, but he, he, he got on, got on Alison, Alison Fraser. He got on Laura, he got on Boyd and he did not on me, which is interesting. And there were a lot of no's. This is how you read the line. No, this is how you get the laugh. And it was like, the cast started to implode. It was sort of like we were, we were becoming defeated because we were not allowed to rehearse or discover ourselves.

But in that Boyd, Laura, and I just continued to ask him questions about the script. And at one point the director's hat came off and the playwright's hat came on. And all of a sudden Arthur was exploring the script he wrote like he had never done before. And at one point I said to him, was this in the original production or was this in the 89 production? He said, nothing in this production is from another production. And we had won. The point is we could, we will arrive, actors will arrive at the same rhythm to get the laugh, but it has to be organic. We can't be told how to laugh it. You know, it's like, you can't put on someone else's costumes and turn in their performance. And that's what was happening.

We, we, he had cast really fine actors who would have been able to find the laugh there themselves so that they could maintain that laugh every single night. And that's what happened. He, he, he laid off everybody. Everybody came to the same conclusion as to where the laugh was and how to get and maintain that laugh. And he was inspired by the fact that we were taking this script apart, analyzing this script. I said to him, we asked him at one point, was this how it was done originally? And he said, they never rehearsed the scenes originally. I, I am shocked at that. We were, we were dumbfounded when we heard that, you know, Jerry Robbins directed, Leonard wrote the music. So, so I mean, Julie Stein wrote the music.

So I'm sure that it's the same thing that happens in all musicals, the choreographer works and the musical director works, and you might get to the scenes. And we started with the scenes, which was so unusual and gave that particular production the rock it needed.

[21:05] Ilana Levine: Yep. Because that was a real, I mean, you believed all those people. You believe every one of those people, you believed your relationships. What was it? I have two questions for you. I'll start with this one. You have worked with so many leading men and have had so many incredible experiences. Your, your, you know, your relationship with Mandy, which then has turned into, you know, this incredible concert series that we all are desperate to see again, if that could ever happen again. But you have talked about Boyd, Gaines, many times with a kind of respect and love that isn't always the way you hear people talk about their co-stars. And I wonder what it was about that coupling that was so unique.

[22:19] Patti LuPone: I mean, that's key. That is very important for all of us that are acting, to understand how we fit into the play. And only that. Do you know what I mean? Not try to make our point.

[22:30] Ilana Levine: Right. Without ego.

[22:32] Patti LuPone: Exactly. And Boyd also was the, I would have to say, the leader of the company. He is a very wise, patient, wise and patient human being. And kind. And kind man. Extremely kind man. So we have wisdom. We have kindness. We have intelligence. We have someone who is a brilliant actor. How can I not be grateful and look up to him? Both of those things. And how can any of us that we're working with him not respect Boyd Gaines and show that respect by behaving ourselves in every single capacity? And we did. And not that we were going to misbehave because it came down from the top. It came down from Arthur. But there was Boyd who played Herbie so brilliantly. And Boyd has just this, he's an old soul. And he is, as I said, everything that I said, all the adjectives that I just used about him. You pay respect to that.

[23:44] Ilana Levine: So beautiful. So beautiful. So my other question was, why did you want to play this role so badly? I mean, we now know, in retrospect, how right you were, and everything worked out the way one dreams of. But what was it that you wanted to play? The part had been done many times. Why did you feel like I have something I want to say with this part that's different than how it has been done and received before?

[24:15] Patti LuPone: I never wanted to play this part.

[24:21] Ilana Levine: And we're out. Thank you so much for coming on the show today.

[24:26] Patti LuPone: Everybody else wanted me to play this part.

[24:29] Ilana Levine: Interesting.

[24:30] Patti LuPone: I'm like, first of all, I am the most ignorant, illiterate person you will meet when it comes to musical theater. I know nothing. All I know are the shows I've done, and the shows I've been to when I was a kid. But I was in this when I was a kid. I played Louise, and I remember that dressing room scene, and I remember Kathy Sheldon yelling at me, going, what is she talking about? I was 15 years old at the time. I thought playing Madam Rose was never a thing for me. And Sam Mendes, he offered me his production. And that's another story. But he offered me that production. And again, I went, OK, somebody wants me to play Rose. And then other people, they've said, you've got to play Madam Rose. I never really understood it until I played Rose.

Because I'm not being, what is the word I'm looking for? I can only tell you that I'm operating from how I perceived Rose when I was 15 years old, listening to that dressing room scene. And so I thought, I don't like this woman. Shut up. And so I've always wanted to play Annie. I've always wanted to do Ruth in Wonderful Town. Those were the roles I wanted to play. I didn't necessarily go, I have to play Madam Rose. But then when I played Madam Rose, I got it. I understood why people thought I should play it. But I said, you know, Ilana, I'm not the brightest bulb in the bulb box. And so I just sort of roll along. And these things happen. And then, OK, they happen. But I think I've seen Gypsy.

I saw the movie. Rosalind Russell wasn't very right for the role. And I adore Rosalind Russell. But there was nothing that inspired me to go, you need to play this role because you know how to play it. Nothing until I played it.

[26:30] Ilana Levine: Right, right. Well, but anyone who knows you, what you are, is one of the most incredibly loving, fantastic mothers who've ever lived. Like I look at you and how you parent and it's such an inspiration. And I think the thing that, yeah, I mean, come on, your son, come on. Yeah, yeah. And that you've been able to be in this industry and work as much as you have and travel as much as you've traveled. And we've talked about how your husband is just such an incredible partner for you and vice versa. But the thing that struck me so deeply was there was no monster in your Mama Rose, the momager, the kind of, you know, person we had come to think of her. It was just, to me, this mother who would do anything for her children. And the love was the thing that was really front and center. And it was such a uniquely different story because of that.

[27:34] Patti LuPone: Thank you. You know, I read the books. I read Early Havoc, More Havoc. I read Gypsy's book. And there was a book I read on Rose Havoc. Rose was, you know, at the time, and I guess this is turn of the century. I hope I have my dates right. Rose was in an unhappy marriage in Washington, I think Seattle. But Rose also came from a long line of independent women. And so for Rose to pick up and leave her husband was sort of in line with the way she was brought up by her mother and her mother brought up by her mother. They were very independent, strong women. And I think Rose saw talent in June as the exit, the legitimate exit. And so June did have talent. And obviously, Gypsy had talent. And the mother recognized that.

Now, in the books, it paints Rose and she's done, she's, you know, if any of these stories are true, that she murdered a lover and she's buried someplace up next, upstate New York. And she ran a, on the Upper West Side, she ran a, like a, you know, basically a B&B for lesbians. Who knows whether all that's true or not. It's kind of wonderful that it is because she's got character. And she did slam the door in June's face when June, you know, June did actually leave with a Tulsa and then became a marathon dancer. And then when they were both like at 14 years old, and when they were both broke, she came back. Gypsy was now a big deal in New York and June knocked on Gypsy's dressing room door. Rose answered the door and slammed the door in her daughter's face.

And so you go, okay, what is that? Is that a monster? Is that someone that, is that a woman that's monstrously hurt? And so, and again, I've said this a lot, you know, we are all individuals. And so when we read a script, we're going to read it with our take on it, our individual take on it. And I did not see the monster. I do not see the monster in Rose Hovic. I believe she's capable of doing monstrous things, but I don't think she's a monster by nature.

[29:49] Ilana Levine: Was it hard to say goodbye to that part?

[29:56] Patti LuPone: Yeah. It was hard. You know what was hard to say goodbye to was the company. Yeah. And doing that play every night with that company. That's the other thing that Arthur did that was so extraordinary. Every actor, every child, every dancer, every singer, every understudy owned their part. Arthur instilled that in them. And they did not miss unless they were really, really sick. So that, you know, there's a rule on Broadway now that after you open, you can take personal days. Well, I always thought personal days was your day off. Yeah. So now you have personal days. So the chain is broken right after you open because people start taking personal days and you play with understudies and you never know who's going to be on stage. And I don't like that at all. But, you know, there's nothing I can do about it. But nobody missed in Gypsy unless they were really, really sick.

[30:45] Ilana Levine: Oh, what a show. What a cast. What a time. Patti LuPone, I love you deeply. I'm going to ask you a couple of questions to finish up our conversation. The first one is, is there anything that you wish you had said in that Tony speech that you would like to say now?

[31:04] Patti LuPone: No, I think I got it all out.

[31:10] Ilana Levine: All right, good. So who did you bring with you to the Tonys?

[31:10] Patti LuPone: My husband and my son.

[31:16] Ilana Levine: What were you wearing at the Tonys?

[31:19] Patti LuPone: I was wearing a Caroline Herrera dress.

[31:19] Patti LuPone: Wasn't that David Hyde Pierce? Yes.

[31:25] Ilana Levine: Do you remember who you who presented you with your award?

[31:25] Ilana Levine: And the last one is, where is your Tony now?

[31:32] Patti LuPone: My Tony lives in a tri-corner cabinet.

[31:32] Ilana Levine: Tri-corner cabinet?

[31:41] Patti LuPone: Yeah, that's the one. In the loft of our barn. It is not on display. It lives happily with my other theatrical mementos. I'm sure they have little conversations at night.

[31:48] Ilana Levine: I hope so. If those Tonys could talk. All right, Patti LuPone, I love you. Thank you for being on And the Tony Goes To. You are our first guest and I am so filled with gratitude.

[32:02] Patti LuPone: Oh, thank you. I love you. You know that.

[32:08] Ilana Levine: I love you too.

[32:14] Ilana Levine: And the Tony Goes To is produced by Alan Seals for the Broadway Podcast Network. The music and lyrics for the theme song were written by Georgia Famosa. Theme song orchestration by Alexander Sage Oyen. Episodes are edited by Derek Gunther. Thank you to Parody Bill for the graphics. And please don't forget to go to the iTunes show page and rate and review the show. Thanks for listening. And the Tony goes to my special guest.

[32:36] Ilana Levine: An excerpt from the Tony Awards used with permission of Tony Awards Productions.