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[0:00] Martín Acuña: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Backstage Talk. This is your host Martín Acuña speaking, and today we have another special guest. We have Juan Caballer. He is from Spain, living right now in New York. He is a musical theater performer, and I am really happy to be with him right now, having this chat.

[0:29] Juan Caballer: Hello.

[0:30] Martín Acuña: How are you?

[0:31] Juan Caballer: I'm doing good. How are you?

[0:34] Martín Acuña: I'm good. I'm excited. Nervous and excited.

[0:37] Juan Caballer: No, don't be nervous. It's all good.

[0:40] Martín Acuña: Okay, so Juan, tell us a little bit about yourself.

[0:45] Juan Caballer: About myself? Hi, I'm Juan Caballer. I was born and raised in Spain, and currently I am an actor in New York City. I fell in love with musical theater when I was about five or six years old, and I saw Peter Pan on stage. And from the moment I saw it, I was like, I need to do this. I don't know for a living, but I was like, I want to be part of that. And I was very lucky because I went to an international school, and they had a lot of English teachers. And we had an English teacher in Spain that would do musical theater in high school or during my school experience, which is very rare in Spain. That does not happen, or at least it didn't happen back then. So I was very lucky to do roles as Joseph.

We did Bombay Dreams. We also did some Shakespeare, and I got to play all these roles, and I fell in love with doing theater. And every time there would be a show in town, I would make my parents take me to the show because I wanted to see it. And it got to a point that I was like the oldest person in this theater class. So I was like, you know what? Maybe I should start taking class. And there's a school called Coco Comín, and she is a very famous choreographer in Spain, and she has this musical theater school, and they offer a musical theater program during the weekend. So I got to do like, during the week I would go to school, and in the weekends I would go and learn about musical theater.

We would take acting, singing, jazz, ballet, tap, a little bit of everything. And I completely fell in love with musical theater then. But because I had such a good level of English because of my school, I started doing research, and I fell in love even more with musical theater. I became a really nerdy musical theater freak, you know? Like we all are.

[2:35] Martín Acuña: Like we all are.

[2:36] Juan Caballer: Exactly. And I would ask my teachers in this school about Sondheim and about other things that I had learned by myself, and they weren't able to teach me because they wouldn't know. It got to a point that I felt like I knew more than my teachers. So I was like, if I really want to learn about musical theater, I have to leave Spain. And that was in a different time than right now, because right now Spain is really good with musical theater. There's so much theater opportunities.

[3:05] Martín Acuña: Everywhere.

[3:06] Juan Caballer: This was eight years ago when it was starting to happen. But I was like, if I really want to learn about this, I got to go somewhere else. And I learned about this school, AMDA, that they have a campus in New York and a campus in LA, and they offer a BFA in musical theater. And I told my parents, you know, I want to do this. And they were like, well, we don't know. Maybe just do the audition, and if it happens, great. If not, we'll look for something else. Not really believing that I would get it. But I flew to London, I did the audition, and I got in with the scholarship. And they were like, you know what? We're all in. Let's do this. So when I was 18, I packed my bags, and I moved to LA, because that's where they do the eight-semester BFA program. And that's where I studied musical theater. And I got to do a semester in New York City, too. So that was really great, too.

[3:58] Martín Acuña: What was your best experience at AMDA?

[4:01] Juan Caballer: My best experience at AMDA? I mean...

[4:04] Martín Acuña: Was it the people, the teachers, the way they taught?

[4:07] Juan Caballer: Well, my first semester was incredible, because I went from being the only really nerd that I knew in Spain about musical theater to being in a room full of musical theater nerds that knew more about me. And all of a sudden, I could have conversations about the subjects that I loved. So that was amazing. You know, my first-semester teacher was Thomas O'Leary, who was Phantom in Phantom of the Opera on Broadway. And I also had Chandra Schwartz, who I had seen as Glinda on tour, and then all of a sudden she was my teacher. So that was very exciting. What I loved about AMDA and LA in particular is that it focuses on musical theater, of course, but it tackles other things like acting for camera, or we took piano classes. And I was able to expand my horizons beyond just musical theater. And I learned how to play piano there, and now I play chords, and that's amazing.

[5:02] Martín Acuña: You can do yourself tapes.

[5:05] Juan Caballer: Exactly. So yeah, I love AMDA. I do think about AMDA. There are a lot of lazy students, which I don't understand how. So you've got to make the most out of it. If you're lazy, you won't get anywhere. The teachers won't care about you, but if you're willing to put in the work, you're in good hands.

[5:24] Martín Acuña: And you've been back to AMDA to give talks, right?

[5:28] Juan Caballer: Yeah, I do these Q&As every once in a while. I just did one a couple weeks ago. And it's for new students or for students that are just accepted, to help them, yeah, guide them through this AMDA journey. It was very interesting last time I did it, because most of the students were international, so they had a lot of questions for me as someone who is from outside and getting to do this for a living.

[5:53] Martín Acuña: Cool. Now that you comment that most of those students were international, one of the main discussion topics I want to talk with you is being an immigrant right now in the United States. You've been there for almost eight years, and how has your experience been as an immigrant performer?

[6:12] Juan Caballer: It's been a journey. I always say it's really hard, but it's not impossible. You know, getting the visa in the first place is really hard. When I graduated from AMDA, with my student visa, you get a year that you get to work in the United States. It's called the OPT. In this year, if you want to get the artist visa, which is the visa that I'm in right now, you have to work really, really hard this year. I did six shows and a reading, and that's something that I will never do in my career again. I stayed in L.A. because I knew that there would be less competition, but it was a year that I was basically rehearsing one show during the day, performing another show during the night. Some mornings I had auditions, and some were in L.A., and the other one in San Diego, and I'd be traveling. I barely got any sleep, but I worked my ass off, and I got the visa. Then is when I decided to move to New York.

[7:08] Martín Acuña: Which were those six shows you did in that year?

[7:14] Juan Caballer: Well, my first show actually was from one of my tap teachers in college, John Engstrom, who was the original dance captain of 42nd Street on Broadway. He said, I want you to audition for this show that I'm doing, Singin' in the Rain. I auditioned, and I got it, and that's how I got my EMC card, getting some points with my journey towards equity, which I'm sure we'll discuss later. The next show I did, I did Big Fish, which was very special, too, because I got to see that show during previews on Broadway. Then I got to perform the show with the original costumes and set, and that was very exciting back then. I also did West Side Story. I played Bernardo in that production. It actually was an offer from a teacher who had seen me play Bernardo at AMDA, and said, I want you to do this professionally, because I know your work.

[8:07] Martín Acuña: I know your talent.

[8:08] Juan Caballer: Exactly. So that was very special. Hector Guerrero, who had done it with Jerome Robbins back in the day, too. So that was very special. Then I got to do this new original show called Empire, which is the Broadway bound show. It's about the construction of the Empire State, and all the immigrants that help construct it. When they found out that I'm an immigrant and I'm from Spain, they were like, we need to write a Spanish role for you. We need you there.

[8:34] Martín Acuña: Yeah, well, it was great, because they were like, do all your scenes in Spanish and everything. Then when I booked the job and I got to the Fresia rehearsal, they were like, so we did some research, and there was no Spanish builder. So there's a Nikos that's Greek in the show now.

[8:49] Juan Caballer: And that's great. That was really great to have. It was an original show, so you got the writers in the room, and we did a lot of changes every day. And that was my first experience to do that kind of work, which is my favorite, and I got to do a couple more times afterwards. But that show, we did a two-month run in L.A., and then they did a reading in New York City that for the people who don't know what a reading is, a reading is basically you perform the show with music stands, no choreography, no sets, no anything. It's just a bunch of actors reading the show in front of producers who will eventually produce the show on Broadway or invest in the show for Broadway. And after that run we did in L.A., they made some changes, so it was a chance to try those changes out in front of an audience.

And they did this reading in New York City, so they told me, we'd love for you to do this reading. We can't offer you travel or housing. And I was like, you know what, I'm moving to New York. So that was the reason I moved to New York.

[9:55] Martín Acuña: The big leap.

[9:56] Juan Caballer: The big leap, yeah. It was a bunch of reasons, but that was my main excuse. I was like, you know what, I'm just going to do this.

[10:03] Martín Acuña: I'm ready to take the big city.

[10:05] Juan Caballer: Exactly, yeah. And what happened to Empire? You did the reading, and what happened?

[10:10] Juan Caballer: I did the reading. That's a show that they've been working on for like 10 years or something like that. And I know they've had a couple more readings. They offered me one, but I couldn't do it because I was somewhere else doing something. I know there are plans for the future and they want to bring it to Broadway or want to do another production of it, but I haven't really been involved in the show since.

[10:31] Martín Acuña: Since the reading.

[10:32] Juan Caballer: Yeah.

[10:33] Martín Acuña: Okay, let's go back to your visa, your artist visa. How's that going? Because I know that you've been working on that again lately.

[10:42] Juan Caballer: Mm-hmm.

[10:43] Martín Acuña: So give us an insight about that.

[10:46] Juan Caballer: So basically the artist visa that you get, you get it for three years. And then you have the chance after three years to expand it year after year after year. It's just like an extension of the visa that you have. And if you want to get a new, more three years, you have to kind of start over. And I'd rather start over and get three more years than just keep expanding it for just one year because it just makes it trickier for people to hire you and everything. So yeah, it's a tough process. It's a very stressful process, actually. You basically need three, there are like three main things. The first one is your sponsor. That's going to be who petitions for you to be in the country. And that can be three things.

Either a company, for example, let's say that, let's say, for example, you're in Lion King in Spain and they love you and they're like, we want to take you to Broadway. Then Lion King will be your sponsor, but you'll only be able to work for Lion King on Broadway. And if something happens to Lion King, all of a sudden like your visa would get messed up because you can only work for that production. The second option is an agency, which means that your agent sponsors you and you can freelance as an artist as long as you're connected through them, which is what I actually did. And the third option is your agent as an individual instead of a sponsor.

[12:06] Juan Caballer: Which actually can work for more like managers and everything which is very similar to the agency. It just has a couple more differences. Um, that's the first part of the sponsor for the people that want to be a freelance artist, which most artists want to be I recommend getting an agency as your sponsor, you know, and you need to let them know when you meet your agents. There's no legal responsibility. They don't have to pay anything that most of the money comes from you. So that's a good way to win over an agent when you're trying to convince them for that. The second part is a portfolio which you need to prove that you have extraordinary talent. That's actually the name of the visa, the visa of extraordinary talent.

So you need to prove that you have excellent work in musical theater if that's what you're doing. So awards that you have and reviews that you have. For every job that you do, you basically need a description of the job, who have you worked for in this job that were like recognized by like awards like rammy nominated or chummy nominated description of the theater. You need your program, you need your contract, you need to scan all your paychecks, you need to print out emails. So for example, I my visa has 18 projects and that's not even all the projects that I've done. It's just like I've just selected the most important ones. But that makes that my visa is like 600 pages plus because I have so much work and that's basically what you need.

You need to prove that you're an excellent artist, which means that when you're in every job, you know, try to get pressed about yourself. Do the most, get out of your way and get confident and figure things out so you can get more of a name for yourself. You got to prove them that you have extraordinary talent, which is why it's hard to get this visa right out of college because with only one year of experience it's not the most and I know a lot of people who they rejected especially with trump has actually maybe even less people accept that for the visa. But it's not impossible. You just gotta make it work and find a way to make it work. And the last part that you need is an itinerary and that's one of the hardest parts of the visa is um getting uh you need to prove all the work that you're going to do for the next three years.

As you know, there is no such thing as three-year contract for theater. So yeah, you need to figure things out how to get that and it's not the easiest but it's not impossible. You know I've done it a couple times now, so it can be done. So that would be the best advice you can give to someone that wants to start with that it's hard but not impossible. It's yeah, it's it's really hard. It's very stressful. It's not impossible. It's a very very stressful thing to do just because it demands so much of you. My best advice is one thing at a time. Today I'm working on my portfolio and I'm only working my portfolio today. I'm working on my agent and I'm only focusing on that. If you stress about all of it at the same time you are going to explode and I exploded many times focusing on this visa.

So really just do it one thing at a time because it is a lot and it demands a lot of you and it demands asking people for favors. Don't be afraid to especially if they say people say no that people will say no. Don't get frustrated just be like completely understand. You are asking a lot of some people. So, um, so just be respectful and say thank you and and keep going keep going again you it really demands a lot of you so it's not it really isn't for everyone. It's it's it can be a lot for some people but um, if you're really willing to go there it can be done.

[24:20] Juan Caballer: Okay, now that you've brought up west side story let's talk about that show and evita that are two shows that you've done a lot of time. I mean I've done west side story four times. Uh, my first time was in college. Um, my second time was uh playing bernardo which was hired by the same person who who set up the production college. Um, and then I played action in in barrington stage production and then I played tiger and I understudied chino at the lyric opera. And I mean I I have special stories about every single one of these productions west side story is one of the best written shows in musical theater. I mean, it's just it's just a masterpiece and getting to work on on such rich material is always a pleasure.

Um, what's really interesting about me and what's a story is that I'm from spain, you know, and I always say I'm hispanic, but I'm not latin and even though casting directors don't want to listen to that. Um, that is my truth, you know. I am hispanic. I speak spanish. I am part of a hispanic culture and my name is juan caballero, which is a very hispanic name. So people want to put me in the shark side, but I am european. I am from spain. My skin color is very white. Yeah, so, uh, it is confusing for casting a lot of times. They don't know what to do with me because I I do fit both sides. Um, a lot of times I will get the appointment as as bernardo as one of the sharks for the audition and then once they see me dance and once they see hear me sing they're like, oh, but he also really works more on the jet side, you know, especially because talking about choreography the um, it's a lot more latin infused flavor into the choreography at the shark side which I don't have in me as much as like the jets, which is like more traditional jazz.

So once they see me do that, they're like, oh wait, we'll well, we don't know what to do with him. But it's I mean, it's very special the last production that I did. It was a deliric opera and that theater that opera house is just magnificent. It's 3600 seats huge huge stage, um, it was a 40 piece orchestra and like hearing that score every single night with a 40 piece orchestra played correctly is insane. It's incredible, you know people would pay to just hear the music with a 40 piece orchestra. Yeah, just by itself and we got to do a huge production with it and um, it really was a a dream come true and and I love the what I love about that production specifically is um, we set it in nowadays.

It was a production that paid respect to the original but still have it. It takes as a new production, you know. What I loved about it is that you know in the original it's in the 50s so the police really weren't a threat although police characters aren't really a threat to these characters. But the production that we did in chicago in a city like chicago that has so much police brutality we included all of that into the show. So, you know, it's a reflection of what's actually happening in the city and that made it so special and I know that you've met a lot of friends from that production from the lyric opera of chicago. Oh my god that was the most incredible cast like we had a blast it was it was a dream of a cast.

We we really had so much time so much fun on stage and backstage and it was a party where we would go out a lot that night and I see a lot of people from that cast here in new york a lot too. I I really loved that that was a very very special production.

[24:29] Juan Caballer: And let's talk about a bit of the challenges and being an equity or union for you because I I know you're part of uh, Equity and what are the challenges of being there as an american? I'm part of equity, but they have to approve every job that I do, you know equity prioritizes american actors first. So, um, you need you will need their approval for every show that you do for the people that don't know Equity has different contracts. So like if you're on broadway, you're on production contract. If you're on tour, you might be on a seated contract. If you're doing regional work, you could be in lord. We can be in cost if you're a broadway you'll be an off-broadway contract. Every single one of these contracts have different rules that apply for that kind of production.

For example, if you're off broadway, and if you're on broadway, you're gonna be paid completely different because of the grandeur or the money behind it. You know every single one of these contracts have very specific rules about people with an artist visa, not a green card if you're green card, you're completely fine. But uh for with an artist visa, so legally, the only jobs that you will for sure be able to do really have any rules against you are off broadway and lord contracts. The only rules that they have is that they need to they can only hire two people with artist visa per season for everything else. You will need equity's permission. There is a rule and the production contract which is basically broadway and big tours that says that people with artist visas cannot do ensemble work that is a really hard rule to to fight equity on.

I know a lot of people that got denied their chance of being on broadway because of this rule. My best advice is uh keep a good connection with equity. That's that's really all I can say because it really is case by case because of these rules. So when they say you know do a bunch of regional work that they'll say yes to most likely and then send them flowers and be nice to them so when you get your big chance on broadway equity doesn't stop you. They're like, oh we know this person because we've approved them a bunch of times before and we know they're going to deliver the work so we'll let them do it. But um, it is a very frustrating process as someone that is an artist visa and for those who don't know the artist visa only lets you work legally as an actor.

So it is frustrating to be to only be able to do that performing jobs, but then the union stopping you from that that is completely different with um agma. Agma is the union for the opera and I've worked at the lyric lyric opera of chicago. I worked there last year doing west side story and I'm gonna work hopefully, uh in 42nd street and um agma barely has any rules against us artists in the artist visa.

[24:13] Juan Caballer: It was a dream come true to work on something so daring and exciting. And we had Cee Naita back on the music director, who rearranged the score and made it so exciting. It was a dream come true. And then I did another production with Marshall Muldroom Dodge, who I love. And it was kind of the opposite, because she was like, I don't want any spectacular thing. I don't want any shablam. She really wanted to just focus on the story and making sure the audience understood this very complex character that does some things that people will judge her for, but then they love her and they hate her. You know, and she came up with the idea of, there's a scene where in the, not a scene, there's a part of Eva's life that she was rejected to go to her father's funeral.

And she included that in the show when she was a little girl. So we had a little girl walk around representing the youth and the innocence of Evita and why it was broken, justifying the things that she did. So that was very special too. It was daring. It's daring. It's amazing because it explains why she's doing what she's doing, and especially as a woman, what she had to do. And that was very special about Marsha too. It's like, you get a female director telling that story of a woman, of a complex woman. And we had Natalie Cortez play Eva Peron and she was phenomenal too. It was a good production. And the last production that I did, it was at the Fulton and they basically just wanted to recreate the original, which if you ask me, doesn't work as well because the original production is a documentary of Eva and it just shows pictures of her in real life and it doesn't make it interesting.

You know, it is hard to follow the story if you tell it as a documentary instead of just telling it as a story as if you've got a new script and you've got to make a new production from that script. But yeah, that's my journey with Evita. I love the show. I hate the show. I love working on the show because the subject matter is so worth discussing. And now hopefully, if everything turns out right, you'll be in the production of 42nd Street in the Lyric Opera. Can you tell us something about that show? I mean, we're in the midst of this coronavirus craziness. I don't know if it's happening or not. I'm hoping that it will. I haven't done a tap show in a very long time. I'm really, really excited about this production.

They did this production at the Opera of Paris. That's not right. It's in a theater in Paris that is a very important theater. And it's with Stephen Meyer, who does a lot of choreography work in the West End. So I'm really excited to work with this new team and to be back in that space. I mean, I had a blast last year in Chicago and I can't wait to be back there. Well, hopefully, and I know it will, you're going to be in that production. I know. Yeah. And one of your recent jobs has been or was with the Jerome Robbins Broadway Reunion Concert, the 30-year reunion. How did you end up there? So the production that I did of West Side Story at Barrington Stage, Rob LaFosse and Nick Garr were the choreographers, the ones that set out the work for Jerome Robbins in that production.

And they invited us, the Jets, to perform Cool and A Number from On the Town for that concert, which was so special. Nick Garr and Rob LaFosse, they're people that really knew Jerome Robbins on a personal level, not just as artists. And they really understand his style and his love for character work. And we worked a lot on that when I did the Barrington production. But when you get to do the Jerome Robbins, when we got to do the Jerome Robbins reunion concert, being involved in so many artists that actually have taken his choreography and then inserted in their work, you know, I mean, you see pieces of Jerome Robbins Broadway in all of contemporary choreography. I was just auditioning for Hamilton and I was like, there's so much West Side Story in this, you know, and like, it's not even like, it's part of their identity as a choreographer, but they've really learned from someone like him.

And he really is a character-based choreographer. And that's what makes it so special as an actor, being a dancer, because they used to tell that Jerome Robbins was able to do the dance number Cool as every single one of the Jets, and would be completely different. Because Baby John, who is just a little kid that's scared, would dance Cool differently than Riff, who is so confident and is telling everyone to go down. Who is different than Action, who wants to explode at every chance that he can, you know, and that kind of work is what Jerome Robbins was interested in. And a lot of that gets, it's not as important nowadays, because people want to see clean dances more than character-driven dances.

So a lot of the productions of West Side Story that are happening nowadays, that I thank God have not been a part of doing, but they want to turn West Side Story into a ballet. And it's just not what it is, you know, the prologue doesn't work if you have ballet boys dancing. You want to see characters fighting and claiming their territory. And it's not about the dance move, it's about the intentions behind it. For example, you know, the iconic pose of West Side Story, which is the three sharks doing what it's called the shark steak. A lot of productions want that ba ma to be really high, but it really isn't about the ba ma leg that's high, it's about the lower leg that is making the steak. It's like you're putting a knife on the floor saying, this is my territory.

And here I am and here I'm staying. Exactly. So it's a bit frustrating when you see Jerome Robbins' work done so ballet, because he was a ballet choreographer as well. He worked for the New York City Ballet, that's actually how he met Rob LaFosse, who's the person that I work with. But he took all that ballet training and he said like, now let's focus on the character work, you know. And so that was very special being in the room with so many people who from that show now are very important choreographers like Joan Hunter, there's Jerry Mitchell, there's Sergio Trujillo, there's Julio Monge. You know, these are important. These are people that are important in today's musical theater. And they were all in that room in that two night concert.

It's so great that you've talked about Jerome Robbins being a character driven choreographer or creator. Because last term I was working on my thesis project, last semester I did my thesis project for one of my bachelors. And I wrote a musical, but one of the things I was interested in was how could I write dance. And I know there are a lot of notations and I can draw how I want the dance, but what I was interested in was the script making of dance. So how did you get that like script or choreography written down? Because since it's Jerome Robbins, I think it's really important to bring up or to maintain the original choreography by Jerome. So how did that work for you in that concert? Well, musicals usually or productions usually have a show bible, which is where the dance captain writes what every single person does in every single show.

I know for this particular case with Drama Broadway and with Wesley Story, the people that setting it up, they had done it so many times back in the day that was basically part of their DNAs. And there were videos of them doing it, so when they had questions they looked more at the videos than they would at the bible. But there is a bible that exists with all these steps and what every step means. They just used it only when it was necessary because that choreography is so much part of themselves that they didn't really need it. Okay, great. Now, I want to move next to what are your top five musical shows? That is such a hard question. I know, I mean for me on my first episode here in the podcast I did the same exercise and there are a lot of shows that I love, but I did pick five which are like the landmarks for me.

Which are those landmarks for you? I mean, landmarks would be different than a favorite, I think. Because like Wesley Story, for example, it's a landmark and it's such a masterpiece. But nowadays it has problems, you know. I believe that it's a very jet-heavy show instead of the sharks. And nowadays if you're going to write it, you need to give a voice to the Latinos. So for me, that musical is everything. I really love performing it and watching it. I think my favorite score is Bridges of Madison County by Jason Robert Brown. I mean, it's just such a romantic and beautiful score. And he really uses genre for every character, you know. Francesca, she's from Italy, so she's going to be more in the Italian operetta style.

You know, while Robert is from America, so he's using more of a fold sound. It's a very, very... I love that score and it's so character-driven as well. Most of his work, like he's one of my favorite composers because of all the character development and smart lyrics and smart chord progressions that he uses. I'd love to do Parade one day too, just because of the music. I'd love to do Dogfight as well, that would be great. Another score that I love, Giant, the music. I mean, that score, it's just no one knows that show. But I always say, like, if you're a new writer, you need to study the lyrics in that show because you have the perfect balance of what the character wants and the perfect balance of poetry, you know.

Because if the lyrics are too poetic, they go through your head and you don't understand it as an audience member. So, they have to be the right amount of balance of poetic, but straight to the point. But if it's too straight to the point, it's too simple and the lyrics are not good then, you know. So, that score for me is a very important one. Great. And before we say goodbye, what is a recommendation you can give us of either a musical or a film or something you've watched lately? The last thing that I've seen that really shook me was The Inheritance, which sadly closed this week. But that show is a love letter to the gay community in New York City. And you really felt very represented on stage throughout everything.

It talks about AIDS. It talks about the presidential when Trump became president. It talks about what it's like to just be gay in New York City and how to try to make things right. So, it really inspired. That was really great theater for me. Cool. Well, Juan, it's been a lovely chat with you. Thank you for being here.

[35:31] Juan Caballer: You too. Thank you. I'll be sure to get you noted when this is published and I'll leave your Instagram and all your social media down in the description of the episode. Thank you so much again. It's been amazing. Thank you for having me. Thank you everyone else for listening. And hopefully I will have you back sometime soon. So, thank you.

[35:51] Juan Caballer: Anytime. I'm more than happy to do it. Thank you. So, goodbye. Thank you everyone for being here on another episode of Backstage Talk. Be sure to rate, comment and share. See you next week. Bye-bye.