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[0:00] Robert W. Schneider: Hi, I'm Rob Schneider.

[0:01] Kevin David Thomas: And I'm Kevin David Thomas. And this is BEHIND THE CURTAIN, Broadway's Living Legends. Don't forget to follow us on Twitter, at Broadway Curtain, and make sure to join our Facebook page at BEHIND THE CURTAIN, Broadway's Living Legends. And kids, follow us on Instagram, at Broadway Curtain Podcast. Plus, you can always listen to all of our episodes, old and new, on the Broadway Podcast Network, iTunes, and Spotify.

[0:23] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, nothing makes audiences happier than when we discover that today's guest will be appearing on a New York stage. For the past 40 years, she has delighted audiences as one of this country's most versatile actresses and writers, appearing in various plays, musicals, revivals, and new works that consistently remind audiences of how truly brilliant she is. New York first fell in love with her when Pump Boys and Dinettes came to Broadway and received a Tony nomination for Best Musical. This was followed by another creation of hers, the delightful Oil City Symphony. Then came Assassins, Prelude to a Kiss, Nick and Nora, Redwood Curtain, and a Tony Award for that one, Picnic, the first revival of Company, Steel Pier, Thou Shalt Not, Curtains, and not to mention endless movies and Emmy Award-winning TV appearances.

To tell us what it was like to work with such legends as Fred Ebb, John Kander, Arthur Lawrence, Jeff Daniels, Al Pacino, Meryl Streep, Stephen Sondheim, Susan Stroman, and so many more, here is everybody's girl, the delightful Debra Monk. Debra, how are you this morning?

[1:23] Debra Monk: I'm fine. Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor to be here. Thank you.

[1:27] Robert W. Schneider: We are so honored to have you. Now, am I correct in understanding that you did not really start theater in high school like a lot of other people did? It came to you a little bit later in life?

[1:36] Debra Monk: Yes. I had never seen a show. I never went to a play. We didn't have a lot of money as a family, and basically, we were TV kids. We didn't even go to the movies that much. So, I didn't know anything about the theater. After I graduated from high school, I became a secretary. I wasn't even going to go to college. Then, some friends of mine had gone to a small college called Frostburg State College. Now, it's called Frostburg State University. They said, Deb, you can afford this. You're so poor that you can probably get all your education paid for. So, I said, okay. So, I thought, well, I hated doing the secretarial stuff, so I said, let me go. So, I got all these grants and things to go to school.

This was a very small college. You had to take a speech class. I decided I will be a teacher, an elementary school teacher, because I didn't know what else to even think to do. The guy who taught the speech class also did the theater, Dr. David Press. I did some stupid speech. Who knows what it was? He said, you should audition for my play. I said, I've never seen a play. I don't know anything about plays. It was the birthday party of Harold Pinter. To this day, I don't know what the hell it's about. I auditioned. He kept saying, so audition for it. I didn't know what I was doing, what I was saying. I got the part of Hortense. I think, is that her name? I think that's her name. I can't remember.

Anyway, the first day, I go in and there's a set of a kitchen. He says, sit down, pour yourself a cup of tea, and then take the glass or the cup over to the sink. While you're saying these lines, you'll do that. I said, okay. I did what he said for me to do. He said, that's great. He said, we'll come back tomorrow. I came back tomorrow. He said, okay, let's run it. I said, what does that mean? I don't know what that means. He said, you have to do it again. I said, okay. I did it again. I made up all new stuff. He said, no, no, no. You have to do it the same way we did it yesterday. That's called blocking. I said, even you do it the same way every single time? He said, yeah. That's how naive I was.

I knew nothing. I remember turning. I fell in love with the theater because my family's all blue collar. They weren't loving their jobs. You never heard anybody talk about their job. It was just get money, put food on the table. I remember turning to somebody. I said, do people do this for a living? They said, yes. I'm going to do this because this is really fabulous. It's so much fun. Then Dr. Press smartly said, you're not ready to go to New York. I thought I was a really wonderful actor. In his classes, for some reason, I could cry really easily. I remember him saying, after I cried during a scene, everybody came up to me. I thought, I must be a really wonderful actress because I'm crying.

It seems to be something really easy I can do because I cry all the time. I did that for a long time. He finally said to me, okay, we've seen you crying. Can you just do something else now? I was so shocked. At that time, everybody smoked. I said, oh, I'll smoke. I brought cigarettes. I lit cigarettes. I rolled cigarettes. I did the whole thing. He said, okay, we've seen you do the crying. We've seen you do the smoking. Can you do something else? Then I thought, oh my God, food. Then I brought hot plates in. I made pancakes. I snapped peas. I cut up vegetables. He said, all right, we've seen you do the smoking. We've seen you do the crying. We've seen you do the food. Can you just sit there and listen to somebody?

I thought, well, that's not very interesting. I didn't know. I did it and I realized how incredibly active and wonderful it is. He really helped me. He also said, you're not ready to go to New York. You've got to go to graduate school because most likely you won't work. Most likely you won't. You have to have something to fall back on. I went to Southern Methodist University. I really got trained there. They also said, after I finished that, the way you finish at SMU is that at the time, they had a panel of people and they could ask you any question about the theater from the Greeks on. It was really crazy. At the end of the thing, they said, Deb, we feel you need to go see theater. You haven't seen enough theater.

I thought they were going to say, well, you are ready to go to Broadway. They didn't say that. I was trained, but I had no experience with the theater. My first show I ever saw was Equus. Of course, it was something I've never, I was shocked by it all, actually, and kind of enthralled when they had the people sitting in the back. But the person I kept, my eyes kept going to was Marion Seldes, who was sitting on the bench like this, listening forward. I thought, oh my God, that's the most active thing. It took me back to what Dr. Press had told me that the act of listening on stage is just as riveting, and it was. That was my kind of journey into New York.

[6:44] Robert W. Schneider: Were you glad that you went to SMU?

[6:49] Debra Monk: In hindsight, you were glad that that was a good choice?

[6:52] Yes, because of a couple of reasons. First of all, I was very well-trained. We had a Shakespeare class. We had comedy class. We had all these classes. It was an incredible school. However, they chose their favorites. At this point, graduate school, they only took 13 people, and only five of them were women. When I was going to audition for the school, I had, again, no money. They wanted me to fly to SMU, and I didn't have the money to do that. I said, is anybody from SMU going to be in the DC area, which is where I lived? They said, well, Dr. Hobgood, the head of the department, I said, please, can I go and at least audition for him? I did. I was a little heavy, and I did a piece from Juno the Peacock.

I was in my 20s. I was doing a 40-year-old part. It wasn't a great audition, and I knew that. I did the audition for him in this conference room. Then I got on my knees, and I crawled over, and I said, you've got to take me. You have to. I had only $50 to pay for my application fee. If you don't take me, I don't know what I'll do. Anyway, he took me against all of the other teachers who were pissed off. He went all over the country and saw people who had been like stars all through high school and everything and college. I wasn't. When I got there, there was already the teachers were not happy that I was there. I wasn't treated. I wasn't supported that much, but I was old enough to say, just keep your head down and do the work.

Just learn the work. When I got to New York, I didn't get a job for five years. I was a waitress and a secretary. It wasn't until we wrote Pump Boys, which came out of my waitressing experience. For five years, I went to the theater as much as I could. I couldn't even get an agent. I couldn't get anything. I would try to sneak into equity principal interviews. I was married at the time. My husband had all his old equity cards. I would take them and put my hand over his name and try to get through. I would do anything. Then, they'd kick me. I said, what's the deal? It really humbled me that everything humbled. I kept getting humbled. That was good for me. I don't think I was ready to really experience a lot of success. I don't think I was ready.

[9:17] Robert W. Schneider: Do you remember some other performances that you saw when you first got to the city, like Marianne Seldes, that was also transformative for you?

[9:25] Debra Monk: I saw the original Chicago. I'd never seen anything like that. Both these shows were shocking to me, and sexual, and exciting. I'd never heard music like that. I'd never seen anybody like Cheetah and Gwen Verdon. I was just blown away by them. I can't remember if I saw a very young Meryl Streep do, I can't remember the name of it, but it was an off-Broadway piece that she did. I can't remember. Back then, everything was cheap. You could see a Broadway show for 20 bucks. I would save my money and just go. I went to see everything. I went to see as much as I could. I really took the advice of mine. It was really helpful to see these incredible performances. It also made me think I'll never be able to do that. Part of me thought, I don't know how I could do it. I was never one of those persons that I could do that. They should be hiring me for that. I was very thinking, will I ever be able to do that?

[10:32] Robert W. Schneider: When you were auditioning, did you have a go-to audition song?

[10:39] Debra Monk: Oh my God, yes. At 20, man, you've had it. If you know what I mean, I'm going to be somebody before the lithium. That was my song. It wasn't appropriate for everything, but I only knew one song. That's great. I don't know if it got me any auditions, but any shows. Like I said, I was auditioning for five years. I didn't have an agent though, so it was hard to even get in. I could only go through things that I could find.

[11:07] Robert W. Schneider: Were you looking for musical theater as well as plays? Had you decided—

[11:11] Debra Monk: Anything.

[11:12] Robert W. Schneider: You wanted everything.

[11:13] Debra Monk: I would take anything. I was so desperate to work. I wanted to work. I never felt myself as a musical singer at all. I'm not a trained singer. I don't read music. I did a lot of church singing. That's basically it. It wasn't like I didn't have that kind of voice, but I would go in for them. I didn't feel like I was really able. Pump Boys, I could do that kind of singing because that was based on rockabilly gospel. All the stuff that the six of us who wrote that, we all had those histories together and that's what that was.

[11:50] Robert W. Schneider: How did you meet your crew for Pump Boys and Dinettes?

[11:55] Debra Monk: Well, Mark Hardwick, the brilliant Mark Hardwick who was in our show and I were at SMU together. And I remember what, SMU's arts facility is like unbelievable. There's like Picassos on the wall. There's a big, huge symphonic orchestra space. There's the big Bob Hope Theater. It's gigantic. And when I first got there, I was so, how am I going to be here? And I walked around and I got somehow into the balcony of the symphonic, the symphony orchestra place and they were doing, the Dallas Symphony Orchestra was rehearsing. And I just, I had never heard classical music either. Never knew anything. And I was listening to them and this guy was sitting at the piano, kind of a skinny guy. And all of a sudden it was his time to play.

He played this, I don't know what they were playing, but it was the most incredible, I'd never heard anybody play like that. And then about a month later, I was cast as a mute maid in a musical. So I didn't have anything to say or sing. And I looked over and I thought, who is that guy? I've seen him before. And it was the same guy who played. And that was Mark Hardwick, who was, he could play classical music. He can play rockabilly and he had a huge gospel. You know, he was a big church boy. So he had all that stuff and we got to be good friends and we were both feeling kind of out of it with people there. So we would meet in these rehearsal rooms and play gospel music forever and sing and write songs together and stuff.

And so that's how I met him. And when he came to New York, he worked with Cass Morgan and Jim Wan. And he said, you should meet Cass. You all would hood it off. And we did. And she was a great singer, is a great singer. And I didn't have singing background, but I had acting background and I had just worked as a waitress for a few years. So I knew waitresses. So we said, let's, she and I just got together and started writing a show about, we'd never written anything about two sisters who run a diner. And then we would write, we should write a song. Well, let's write a song about the food we do. So we wrote the menu song and then we would write about tips and all the things that we, and then her husband, Jim Wan, at the time was doing another show called the pump boy or they were called the pep boys. And that was Mark and him. And, and he, and they said, let's get together. And we got together.

[13:59] Debra Monk: So, life's going to be real good for me when I get a little bit older and I grow into my type. You know, I didn't think of it that way. I didn't really know if I even really understood that I was a character actress at the time. I just thought, I just always loved those parts. To me, they were, I never felt that I could really play the pretty, you know, leading lady. I never felt, I was never an ingenue. I just, I just started too late to be an ingenue. But it was never part of what I felt. I'd much rather do the comedy, you know, something. But, so I don't know if I thought that way. I don't know if it was just in my mind, you know, that I just was drawn to those parts. But I never thought, and maybe that was why.

I don't know. It took me a long time to get to a place where I could actually. You know, what happened was after Pump Boys, I was very happy that we had this success on Broadway. And for the first time, I made some money. I could pay off so many bills that I owed money to. But I didn't have an agent. I finished on Broadway without an agent. Nobody would sign me because they said, well, you're just a country-western singer. And I said, well, no, I'm an actress and playing this part, you know. But it was really frustrating. And we did the cast left and another one, Maggie LeMay, came in to do it and take over. And she had an agent and she was going off to audition for the Actors Theatre of Louisville.

Now, the Actors Theatre of Louisville is a place that I wanted to work because I wanted. I was really trained to be a repertory actress. I could play all different parts. And I thought that would be thrilling to do one part one week. And but I couldn't get in there because they only took submissions with agents. We were doing Pump Boys now in Minnesota. We finished Broadway. Now we're doing another. I guess I'm going to be doing Pump Boys for the rest of my life, but that's OK. I'm happy that it's being done. But I flew myself on my day off to the Actors Theatre of Louisville and walked in and said, I want to audition. They said, you can't do that. You're not allowed to. We only take submissions.

I said, I don't have an agent, but I flew myself here. And so finally, I got to talk to Corey Madden, who was at the time John Drury's assistant. And she said, listen, we don't take people this way. I said, I understand that. But I flew myself here. I can at least do my piece for you. I can't remember what my piece was, but it was better than the Juno and the Peacock. I did that. And she said, listen, thank you again, but I cannot really help you at this time. I said, OK. I said, I just want you to know I will fly myself back here. If there's something you feel like you want, you would think I'm right for. And I left. And then after that, Susan Kingsley, who was one of the great actresses of Louisville, was tragically killed in a car accident on her way back to the Humana Festival.

And Bill Masterson had written a play for her called The Undoing that John Drury was going to direct. And they were all in mourning. John was her best friend. But he had to come to New York to cast this part. They had to recast this iconic woman's part. And as he was leaving, Corey said, you might want to see this girl. So I got the audition and I got the part. And it was unbelievable. And that all happened because I went on my own. It wasn't because of an agent. And so I got to be at the Actors Theatre of Louisville for three years doing parts for the first time that were actually parts I would never get cast in New York. They were leading parts and wonderful. It was really where I honed my skill with new work, new contemporary work.

And John was a great teacher and a great mentor. And I learned a lot. And after three years, I remember thinking I could be here for another 10 years and never go back to New York. I said, I better just bite the bullet, break this tie I have and go back and see what I can do.

[18:09] Kevin David Thomas: What are some lessons that you learned from John Drury that you still take with you today when you're working?

[18:14] Debra Monk: The first play I did was Undoing, which was a very alcoholic woman in a chicken ranch. And she was ripping off chickens. I mean, it was crazy, very serious. At the time, I was very, you know, as a young actress, I thought I got to prepare and prepare and I'd be up in the corner. And he would come up to me before these big emotional scenes and start talking to me and kind of about light, you know, just like everyday things like, how are you doing? I wanted to say, John, I'm trying to prepare, you know, but he was like, talk to me. And he always tried to get me not to go in like this, but to let it. What he was doing was opening up my mind and go in as an open and let it all come instead of forcing it.

You know, that was a great lesson. I always now before I enter, I just take a big breath. I usually say my first line on my head so I won't at least mess that up because that happened to me once. I went on stage and couldn't remember my first line. So now I say my first line and then I say, let be what be. I'm prepared. I'm ready and let me go in instead of like making it happen. The other thing about Louisville, it was all about the playwright. You respected the playwright's words. And, you know, many times I've been in rehearsals and an actor will say, my character wouldn't say that. We weren't ever allowed to say that at the actor's theater. You were there to do that. And what it taught me was I think maybe I'm thinking right now my character wouldn't say that.

But if I keep working on it, it'll feel incredibly real and it's the right thing to say. So he really taught me to respect the language of the playwright and not to be so quick to say I won't say that. Because basically that's what you're saying is I don't know what I'm doing. You know, instead of I don't know how to use that. So those were really major things that have helped me to this day.

[20:06] Kevin David Thomas: What do you look for out of a director? To you, what is the ideal director-actor relationship?

[20:12] Debra Monk: I like a director who knows what they're doing. That has done all of their work and has a vision. Now within that vision, things can happen. But there's a really solid vision for it. So that if an actor does something that's not like they thought, they can take that in. Or if the director thought it's got to be done this way and then they see an actor do something different, they say, oh, I didn't think about that. So there's some give and take in this relationship. But it needs to feel like you have somebody in control. Somebody who's allowing you to try things. Who's not stifling you right away. But also if you're really off course, will gently guide you back. I think. Also a director who has a sense of humor and who is kind. I just don't think we need to be bullies to get this work done. And I've been in that situation several times. What they don't realize is it's so hard to get over that. Just to get back to the work.

[21:24] Kevin David Thomas: And when you get a role, how do you begin your character preparation? Do you sit down and write down, okay, the objective here in this scene is blah, blah, blah? Or do you just go into the rehearsal hall and operate on gut instinct?

[21:39] Debra Monk: Well, I read it a lot of times. Because I think that reading it a lot helps me to understand. Sometimes it's not in your lines. It's what other people say that you start to learn about your character. So I try to read the play to know what is it about. I usually make a list of questions. Because I always have a lot of questions about things. And sometimes a director will say, I don't know if I can answer that yet. Which I love. Because we're going to find it together. But there's something about, for me, when I find something I love, I just can't wait to get in the theater. And I don't always have the right, I always don't understand what I'm saying right away. It takes me a while to really get it.

I've been cast as a lot of these really smart women. And sometimes I have to look up every word to know what I'm saying. And then people think that I'm really smart. But I have to like the character. Even if they're an evil character. Something about them I have to like. Because I feel you have to like these people. But I also have learned, this is all because I've been in the business for so long. I used to go in and have a way of working. I would memorize my scenes before I go in and do it. And I would be so judgmental about other people's processes. And there would be like, if there was 20 people. I mean, to myself, I wouldn't say that. But I would say, why are they doing that? Instead of just minding my own fucking business.

But I finally learned, oh my god, there's a thousand ways to do this. Every actor is going to have it. And that was a great lesson to let go of my preconceived notions from my training and what I learned. What works for me. And let everybody have their own way to come together as a company.

[23:31] Kevin David Thomas: Do you like a lot of table work?

[23:33] Debra Monk: I do. I like some table work. I don't like to be at the table for too long. Because there's always that moment when you get up. And you think, now what the fuck do I do? But it's hard to get off. But I do believe it's important to. I love the opportunity to turn to the actor. And really talk to them. Or cross the table to talk to them. Yes, I do think table work is really great. But I don't like too much of it. I think you can get settled into it.

[24:01] Kevin David Thomas: Of course. So now we'll jump back. So you have this amazing run in Louisville. And you decide to come back to New York. Is Oil City Symphony the first thing that you do when you come back?

[24:10] Debra Monk: Yeah, and I thought of all these. I want to be a legitimate actress. And then I come back and we do Oil City Symphony. But that was again Mark Hardwick. The brilliant Mark Hardwick. You're too young to know these shows. The Lawrence Welk show. We loved the Lawrence Welk show. And the idea of. And we played. I think one of the first songs we played. Was our rendition of Exodus. Now I play the drums. And I had learned to play the drums. During Pump Boys. And I love them. So he came over to my house one day and said let's play Exodus. We did it. And the audience loved the music who thought they were going to be big stars. And then they graduated from high school. One becomes a mailman. And one becomes a housewife.

They're humbled now. But they put together this one concert to honor their music teacher. And it was a really sweet show. All about the love of music. So that was just so much fun to do. And so much fun to write. And to be together. And again. It was a surprise. It was a surprise. It lasted as long as it ran. And I remember. We were a little short. The show was short. And one of our producers said you need to put more. Something else in the show. I said Mark. Do the Hokey Pokey. So he started playing the Hokey Pokey and I started doing it. And we did the Hokey Pokey until we filled up that time. And so then opening night. We're doing. And I'm going oh my God. We're going to get a terrible review.

But they got the charm of it. So it was a really sweet show. I wish it would come back someday. I think it's a really sweet show. Hard to cast. You have to have. Mark was a brilliant piano player. And then we had Mary who did the violin. Brilliant. So my part is easy to cast. Just banging on the drums. But the other parts are. This predates how it got so popular. These shows where everyone plays everything. Yes we did. Yeah. Because I couldn't get into a legit show. I love that. Make your own work. It helped me a lot. And it gave me. It gave me a chance to work. And also. I did like. I love creating and collaborating with people. On these shows. It was fun.

[26:42] Kevin David Thomas: Was there a legitimate thing in New York?

[26:44] Debra Monk: Yes. Can you tell us about that experience?

[26:48] Debra Monk: I had gone to Circle Rep many times. To see shows back then. Because I lived down in the village. I used to walk by it every day. A friend of mine was going to audition. They had a lab. They had a repertory company of actors. Which got paid. The salaried actors. Like Judd Hirsch. And then they had a lab. I had the opportunity to audition for the lab. The lab would be for readings. And things like that. But they were lower than the rep company. I auditioned for the lab. I got in. I did a reading. Of Prelude to a Kiss. They said you are way too young for this. But I did the reading of it. With Mary Louise Parker. They said we would like to. We would like to do this part. But wait a minute. We got a wig. They accepted me. I got to do the production off-Broadway. With Alec and Barney Hughes. The great Barney Hughes. It was fabulous. I was able to move with it to Broadway. That's how I got that. I remember somebody telling me.

[27:58] Debra Monk: Auditioning for The Lab. Now, I've already done a Broadway show. I've done a couple things. They said, you shouldn't be auditioning. They should be asking you. I said, well, they're not. Nobody's asking me. So what is the choice? Do I wait for someone to ask me or do I actually go forward? So I have to say, that's always been a driving force for me. I don't feel like I need to. I will audition. I'm doing a show now called The Gilded Age, which is a television show. I auditioned for it. They didn't offer me that part. And I thought, you know what, it's worth it to me. I'm going to go in and audition because I think it's a great part. So I still feel like it's not all the time will I choose to audition. And I feel like I've done this enough that I should blah, blah, blah. But I will. So I auditioned for that. And I'm really glad I did because that got me my first Broadway show.

[28:49] Robert W. Schneider: Do you like the auditioning itself, not necessarily the process, but actually going in the room, meeting new people and performing for the day?

[28:52] Debra Monk: I've learned to like it. Back in the 90s, I took an improv class. At the time I was married and my mother-in-law, who was this little Jewish lady, wanted to take it with me. So we took this class together, but nobody knew we were related. But what I learned, there was this exercise called Yes And, where it taught you how when most people get together and do improv for the first time, someone will come and say, would you like a drink? No, thank you. Well, you can't say that because that ends it. You have to say, would you like a drink? Yes. And can I get a sandwich? And it keeps it going. But it's something you have to train to do. You have to be learned. So they put you in two lines and one person would start, one person would answer, the third person.

So for example, it could be, um, I saw you at the store. Yes. And I got steaks. Yes. And can you invite me over for dinner? So Marian and I, Marian and I were together for this. And I said, I, she, she started by saying, I saw you with my husband, George. I go, yes. And he's going to leave you and come with me. And she said, yes. And fuck you, you bitch. And so that was like, not part of the improv, and she was like, so old. And I could never heard her say that. Yes. And fuck you. Anyway, but that idea of going yes. And, and being open to anything. What I realized up to that point, my auditions had been about what I thought the directors wanted, what I thought that the, uh, playwrights wanted.

Then I, instead of, so I would go in not really having a plan. I was just doing what I see other people auditioning and I change it to do what everybody else would do. I said, and then after that, I said, I'm going to go in and do what I do. And it may be wrong and it may be totally a hundred percent off, but at least I will be myself and do something. And all of a sudden auditioning became fun. I didn't always get the parts and it could be very disappointing, but audition changed totally for me because I went in always prepared, prepared, prepared, memorized, ready to go. But also I always would say in my auditions, um, they say, do you have any questions? And if I did, I'd ask them if I said, I don't, but I'll try.

I've worked on something and you can let me know if you want me to try something different, which says to them, she's ready to try something different. So it just opened it all up for me. And I believe me, I don't always get everything I've auditioned for, but it's never been like this horrific experience.

[31:20] Robert W. Schneider: And so after Prelude comes Assassins. Can you tell us a little bit about that experience and how that all came about?

[31:24] Debra Monk: You know, we don't, we've been having all this 30 years since Assassins. So we've been having all of these things online and I cannot remember what I auditioned with. I don't think it was a 20 man. You've had it. I can't remember, you know, who would remember as Paul Ford who remembers everybody's amazing. I can't remember what I sang. Uh, but I know I was terrified. I didn't know anybody in this group. I didn't know John Wideman. I didn't know, um, Sondheim. I didn't know Jerry Zaks and I didn't, uh, know Paul Gimignani. I mean, I didn't know anybody. I didn't even know anybody in the cast who got cast and they had done a workshop of it. And Christine Baranski had played that part in the workshop.

Oh. Um, and, uh, so I, I wasn't really putting a lot into it to get this part. Uh, but it must have gone well. That's all I can say because I can't remember. But, uh, what I do remember is I got one of my first movies, which was a very small part in this movie called What About Bob, but it was running late and I was going to be late for my first day of rehearsal for Assassins. And on my way out, somebody said, what are you going to do next? I said, well, I'm going to go to, I have rehearsal tomorrow. I'm going to be late for Assassins. They said, well, you know, Jerry Zaks always fires somebody from his company every time I went, oh my God, that's going to be me. I thought, and also I don't read music and they didn't know that.

So I thought the first time I, when I finally got there, I didn't get fired and we were all learning a group song. Maybe you want to kill a president or whatever it was. All of us were. And there's Victor Garber and Jonathan Hedori and Terry man. I didn't know anybody. And I thought, oh my God, what are they going to find out when they don't read music? And back then you had tape recorders and at the end, Paul, Paul, Jim and I said, okay, does anybody want to tape this? And I went, oh God. So I held up my tape recorder and then I looked down the line, everybody held up their tape recorder. So I thought, okay, I'm going to learn it. But that song was so hard, you know, got this really great gun.

Where is it? That was really great. I mean, I had, and I had like pounded out and of course, Victor and Terry and Jonathan would make fun of me every time when I was pounding out my, my part, but that was an incredible experience. And we got to be, some of my best dearest friends came out of that. We were, we came together to do this piece and then the Gulf War started and President Bush was, was a, was a hero in many ways and in many people's minds and they hated us. So half the audience would get up and walk out of the show. And this was at the old Playwrights Horizons. It was a tiny little theater and that stage is so high. You can see everything, you know, so it was hard, but we were all in one big major dressing room downstairs with just curtains.

And so we all got to be very close. I'll never forget it. And Sondheim was incredibly thankful and supportive of us as was John Weidman as was Jerry. So it was a, it bonded me in some way to this experience and to work at Playwrights, you know, and all that stuff. So, but it was hard. It was hard to do. I remember hearing Stephen Sondheim talk about this. There was a possibility of us moving it, but then it all fell apart. I forgot what happened. And I remember he gave us a party at his house and there was all these pictures on the wall. And there was one of him and Jerome Robbins and Arthur Lawrence all sitting there and it was West Side Story. And he came up behind me and said, Oh yeah, that's when we found out that the New York Times gave us a bad review.

I said, you got a bad review for West Side Story? He said, most of my shows got bad reviews. He says only in revivals that they, and I thought, well, that was a great thing to hear. I thought, Oh my God. So I've gotten, I haven't gotten a lot of always good reviews, you know? So it was another thing I learned that you just keep working. You know, a bad review is really hard and really upsetting and really sad, but it's one review and then you move on. You know, he really helped me with that.

[35:35] Debra Monk: So after Assassins, now we're going to talk about Arthur Lawrence. We're going to talk about Nick and Nora. How did that come about and what was that process like? We've heard it from a lot of different people on the show, so we'd love to get your take on it.

[36:15] Debra Monk: I auditioned for that. Again, I can't remember what I sang, but Arthur was very excited to have me be a part of this. He was very supportive. And we did a little workshop of it. And right after that, I got Redwood Curtain. And we were going, and Redwood Curtain was going to go to, I think we went to Philadelphia and then, no, we went to Seattle, Philadelphia and the Globe out to do it before we were going to bring it to New York. And he said, I told him when I got that part, because Lanford Wilson sent me that script with a note saying this might be a piece of shit, but I wrote it for you to read it. So he got that. I got that because of being in the lab at Circle Rep. So I called Arthur and said, Arthur, I'm going to have to turn down the Broadway production of Nick and Nora because I got this play, Silence.

He said, is it a good play? And I said, yes. He said, all right, open the show for me and I'll let you out, which was unheard of. So Arthur could be tough, but he was willing to let, he wanted me so badly in the show. So I was able to, that was my contract that I was going to, I did all this, went all those places to do Redwood Curtain, came back, opened Nick, we went into rehearsal, opened up Nick and Nora, which was really tough because he then turned, I mean, it was really hard. He was so mean to most all of us, except for Faith. Faith's role worked, but all the rest of us were getting killed every night. And I remember one note session, he was going around to each person and I always had a pen and paper, take my notes down.

And he was going around and he said, and Deborah, I don't know, try anything. And I started to write that down. And then he turned to the rest of us, does anybody have any ideas? And I remember Christine Baranski said, I can't believe he just said that to you. He also, after I tried to talk about this wig thing and I told him, that I wanted to try a new wig, he finally got a new brown wig. He came to my dressing room, he knocked on the door, you look like a whore on stage, slam. And that was it. So, you know, it was not, and another time I remember I had to say a line, I couldn't bear a house with a lanai tonight. I didn't know what a lanai, I had to look it up. It's an outside porch. And every time I would say it, people would be watching.

And then I'd say, I couldn't bear a house with a lanai tonight. And everybody would turn, what's a lanai? The whole audience turned. And then when I said, I finally had the courage to say, Arthur, every time I say that line, they don't know what it means. He said, fuck them. And that was it. So, you know, it became really hard to do. It was really a tough show and you had to have a sense of humor, a part of it. I just had to be able to laugh at some of these things, you know, but I remember when I did Nick and Nora, I got a beautiful note from Stephen Sondheim saying, I just saw you in the show. So I put that up on my dressing. I said, you know what, no matter what's going on, there's always something will come out of it.

But I didn't have to worry about getting out of the show because the show closed really quickly. But it was my first big musical. So I didn't know what it was like to be with an orchestra. And that was really fun. So I got to experience that, which I loved, by the way. It was fun. And then Redwood Curtain comes in.

[40:21] Robert W. Schneider: And a Tony Award.

[40:22] Debra Monk: And a Tony Award. Tell us a little bit about what was Redwood Curtain about and what was it like?

[40:27] Robert W. Schneider: It's a two character play, is that correct?

[40:28] Debra Monk: Three.

[40:29] Robert W. Schneider: Three, I'm sorry. And so what's it like working with such a small company of actors for such a sustained amount of time?

[40:36] Debra Monk: Again, it was great because I'd done so many new modern plays at Actors Theatre. I was used to working with smaller groups or whatever. But Marshall Mason is a great director. He understands every character and he can play every character, I think. And of course, Lanford Wilson is one of our greats. And going into rehearsal for it, Marshall had a way of working, which I'd never done before, which he would take, say there's a scene, a numbered scene. He would take a part of that scene and give it his own idea of that's a scene for him. And he would name it number one scene. And he would say to us, oh, you have to memorize this before we start rehearsing that scene. That was in rehearsal. And I've never had that before.

I've always had that idea, like, I'm going to memorize it as I go. So I was forced to. And you know what? It was a great free experience to have the words out and just to be able to do it. But I'll never forget this. The play, by the way, I'm sorry I didn't answer your question, is about a woman's family who owns a big redwood forest up in the Northwest, and she is working hard to protect it. There are other companies that want to come in and clean it up.

[41:57] Debra Monk: And clear cut it, meaning take it all down. And this is like hundreds and hundreds of years of growth. And she always cut it very, very specifically in a small way while the other trees were growing to protect it. And so she's up against the board who wants to just clear cut it. At the same time, this was right after the Vietnam War. And there was a vet played by Jeff Daniels, who was troubled after the Vietnam War. And a lot of, I think there were thousands of vets that lived in this forest because it was temperate. It wasn't that cold and they could shop. And also the neighboring towns were sympathetic and would leave food outside for them on the porches and stuff so they could actually live there and survive there.

And then there was a young Vietnamese, half Vietnamese, half American girl who was my niece, who was always looking for her father. My brother was her father, but she never, she always had a question about who her real father was because he was over in Vietnam and he adopted her. And she was always wanting to find her real father. So those were the dilemmas that were going on. And at the end of the play, she thinks that the vet is her father. And what she finds out is that my brother, her real father, actually had an affair with a woman, a Vietnamese. And so she was actually with her whole father the whole time until he died. It was really moving and beautiful piece and very, very funny because that's what Lanford Wilson does.

He kind of tugs at your heartstrings at the same time, makes you laugh hysterically. So it was a great part. And my character was this very knowing, very funny. I was Lanford Wilson. Lanford Wilson is one of the funnest people I've ever met. And he was this part, Geneva. He was Geneva. And so I just had to look at him sometimes. I'll never forget one time we were doing the rehearsal and I was doing a line. And from the back of the room, he yelled out, I've written you five great lines and you're fucking all five of them up. And for some reason, I said, leave me alone. I'll get it right by the time we get to Philadelphia. But I learned that sometimes with these directors, the tough ones, you have to learn the skill of a comeback.

And if it's funny, it's better. Same thing with Arthur Lawrence. Arthur Lawrence. I remember the first time I got up to do my little song with Joanna Gleeson. I was doing my little song with her and Barry Bostwick. And Arthur Lawrence was sitting there like this, watching with his arms crossed. And when I finished, she said, I thought you did musical comedy. And I was like that. And Joanne came up, put her arm around me. And this is when you say to Arthur, yes, I do musical comedy, but I never said I did it well. And she taught me the skill with Arthur, because if you start crying, junkie. So I learned, I was learning that skill, how to wait off these sometimes really tough things, which could destroy you and would have destroyed me as a young actress and just trying to find a way to get through it.

But it was I learned because these were tough. These were tough people. At the same time, they wanted me to do this part, you know, and I was so I had to remember that, that even though it's tough to go through, I was cast in it. And there was a reason why I was cast. So yeah.

[45:25] Kevin David Thomas: And, you know, going from someone like Arthur Lawrence to Scott Ellis, who you've worked with so many times, what do you enjoy so much about that relationship?

[45:35] Debra Monk: Well, the first time I worked with him was in Picnic. And he had never worked with me. But we were both friends with Victor Garber. And Scott called Victor and said, Do you think Deb could do this part? And he didn't, we didn't know each other. And it was the first time I got an offer without auditioning. Oh, that was an offer only. And I didn't know I had never had one of those before. And so I love that he had that. Also, he has a great sense of humor. He also has he comes with by he used to come with Bibles, he would come with so much research on every show, and you get these like things on every show I did with him. And it was really fun because he really, he like when he did she loves me, he went to Budapest.

No, I mean, he went there. And he does he does that kind of thing. But he he knows what he wants. And yet he has that thing that I said, he has a way of letting you try stuff and also hone you back in. He puts together great companies. I love the casting. I mean, I still think to this day, that 12 Angry Men is one of the most perfect plays I've ever seen. One of the most perfect casts I've ever seen. I think he's just always has a real affinity for casting. And he loves what he used the projects he picks. He loves passionately. And now after picnic comes company.

[46:55] Kevin David Thomas: And you're brilliant in it. But was it intimidating to know it's the first revival and mistress gave such an iconic perform? How do you? How did you create the character of Joanne? And what do you like about her? You said you have to like something about the character. What do you like about her?

[47:07] Debra Monk: Well, I think she really, really truly cares about Bobby. I think she loves him. And what's the best for him? You know, I think that relationship is very, very special. She doesn't like it's not outwardly. So but I think she really, really cares about him as one of the strong forces behind trying to help him. So there's a maternal thing that doesn't, it's not always show, but I think it is there. I've also learned that just because some people speak directly, it doesn't mean that they're an unkind person. And I've learned a lot about that because I played a lot of characters like that. And there is something to somebody who can speak directly and honestly, which is a good thing. I wasn't brought up to do that.

We were brought up to, you know, shadow everything and being really nice and being sweet and, you know, not saying anything bad. And you don't want to use that to hurt anybody or to manipulate anybody. But sometimes the honest truth said in a way that's direct and honest is a good thing. And I think that was why I did love that about her.

[48:20] Kevin David Thomas: Then John Kander and Fred Ebb and Steele Peer. How does this come about?

[48:26] Debra Monk: This was because of Scott Ellis. Okay. They did not know me. And but he, but they trusted him. And they cast me and John Kander is one of the great voice coaches. He really helped me to feel. I remember everything just opening up and I was able to belt all of a sudden I was able to be a belter. And I never thought of myself as that before. Also what they did and they taught me, we'll put in a key that's good for you. Now, sometimes they don't do that. And I went, well, what an incredible idea, you know, to give me a key that I can actually hit and feel comfortable in. And then Freddie Ebb and I became such close friends. I mean, he made me laugh more than anybody else. He was one of those great guys that could sit in the audience and write jokes and write things to put in the show.

And I'll never forget, like we were rehearsing. There was one of the actors, oh my God, Bradley, who would walk by me in a Mr. Peanut outfit and just walk by me. And I just give him a bad look and Fred said, and he said, next time he comes by, say this line. So next time without anybody knowing, he walks by and I look back and go, what are you nuts? I mean, he came up, but he would come up with these things just like that and put them in, you know, and Freddie and I had a great, we came together loving jokes that we would tell each other, dirty jokes all the time. And we would, and then he also was a great limerick writer. He would write limericks and he would leave them on my phone. It'd be on my answer machine.

I'd click it and you wouldn't hear, Hey Deb, this is Freddie. All you hear is there was an obstreperous youth who was stuck in a telephone booth when struck with a fever, he screwed the receiver and knocked up a gallon Duluth and then he'd hang up. So we, we were bonded by these dirty jokes and we would tell them to each other and laugh. And then he would call Kay Ballard and they would tell jokes. So we had this, we just loved those and we would laugh a lot all the time. He also would make me laugh. I mean, he got kicked out of the rehearsal because we would do, we were rehearsing and we had to do this. We had to actually, we had to do a jog, a run around the theater and it was part of the marathon, do a run.

And I, and he would be sitting in a chair down, this was in the studio, not in the Broadway show. And I would, every time I run by him, he'd go, go Debbie. And then I would start laughing so hard that I wet my pants and I couldn't finish. And so Scott had to kick him out of the thing because he would make, then I would start laughing, then everybody would start laughing. So he was just wonderfully funny. He also, you know, I understand, you know, he really had this kind of wonderful relationship with Eliza Minnelli and helped her. And he, he had that ability. He helped me too, helped me with my, helped me get that song to a point where I could do it. I mean, he really was a great coach and learning how to do these things.

And, and, and, but mostly we just always would laugh, you know? And I remember we were at Scotty and Freddie and I were at dinner together at Joe, where were we? I forget where we were, but he started choking and I got really nervous and went over and somebody came over and gave him the homilic maneuver and something popped out. And he said, and for my next number. I mean, he always had this kind of thing happening, you know, he, he was amazing. I remember him saying, he said, you know, I was born on an elevator going up when he always would say, he just had, it never stopped. It was the mind, but I just loved his, he could be also very, could be like a naughty boy, you know, he'd be a naughty boy and say things under his breath to things.

I said, Freddie, stop it, stop it, you know, like that. But we got to be very, I miss him so much. He was a really wonderful, wonderful person. And, and I also got to say, John Kander and I are very, very close. He's one of the, you know, Freddie always called him the Christ child because everybody loved, because, you know, Johnny was like the perfect guy and Freddie was kind of the bad boy. So he always called me. But he's one of the great guys and we're very, very close.

[53:03] Kevin David Thomas: Did, did Mr. Ebb get to see any of the readings or workshops of curtains that you were involved in?

[53:09] Debra Monk: He did. He did. He died during that. That's, that's my memory of that because I remember that we, we lost, yes, absolutely. He did. We lost Fred. We had done, we did workshops for like five years and the first book writer was Peter Stone. That was Scott Ellis had heard about this piece they wrote. He begged them to give it to me, read it. And we did a reading of it with Peter Stone there and Freddie and John. And it was barely, it was like a, there was a medieval play in there. There was all these different things, you know, but we all did it, you know, of course we'd do anything for them. And then Freddie died. Freddie died first, I believe. And then John wanted to finish the show. John decided there was like six shows or five shows they'd written.

I might be getting some of this wrong, but there were five or six shows that he had written. He said, I'm determined to get all of these produced. And this was one of them. And then Peter Stone died and then they needed a book writer. And that's when they brought on Rupert Holmes. And so that's how that happened. But there was a moment there when we weren't sure if it was going to go on. And it was all John Kander who said, I'm determined to finish these shows. And I remember opening night, we had the brick wall behind us. They put up at the top Freddie's name and Peter's name. So we, every time we turned around, we could see their names. It was really great to see. So they were part, they were there, but he got to see some of it.

He got to hear me sing, It's a Business, which is a great song. And in fact, at his, they did a little memorial for him. And I sang that, because that's Freddie Ebb lyric wise at his best, all of them are, but that was a great song. What a great way to honor him too. What a great, and it's incredible that there's such a desire to have the unfinished work be seen by the public. So beautiful.

[55:09] Debra Monk: We weren't sure the show was going to work. It just wasn't a clear, we weren't sure. And I remember we were all going to LA to try it out and none of us were sure, but there was no doubt that we were doing it because we all loved Freddie and John. And, you know, I thought no matter what, I'm not, I'm not taking it. I told my agents that I'm doing the show. Not that, believe me, nobody's like knocking at my door, trying to get me to do something else. But I said, I'm doing the show to the very end. I'm going to do the show because of them. And that Scott, we all felt that way. Everybody felt that way. And the whole cast, it was an amazing thing. And another thing that Scott Ellis did to kind of pull the whole show together was, you know, there were, there were, there's always on Broadway musicals. There's the, the, the incredible ensemble, right.

[55:56] Debra Monk: And most of the time the stars are out there doing it and the ensemble's dancing around doing backup. But in this show, they all were in the show and they gave them all names. They all had their own names. And Scott said to them, I want you all to write your bio for the, as your character for, and they came in and they read them. They were so amazing. And so that show, unlike any other show, the ensemble was part, they were part of the, they all had their names. They all had something specific they did. And I think it was one of the reasons the show is so successful and also why it's done in like high schools and colleges, because there's parts for everybody. Everybody has a part that gives them a little light to shine here and there.

And I think that's partly, you know, the wonderfulness of Rupert and John Kander too, and doing that and bringing that on, you know. And also, you know, at this time, I feel like every time I saw a TV or movie that was filmed in New York, you would make an appearance in it, which is great. I was always so happy to see you. And you got an Emmy award, right, for NYPD Blue?

[57:01] Robert W. Schneider: I did, which was shocking.

[57:09] Debra Monk: Why? Why shocking?

[57:10] Robert W. Schneider: Because the first time I got, I can't remember, I can't see it, but I got a call. They were, Dennis, I mean, Dennis Franz's character, Sipowitz's son was, Dom DeLuise's son, I can't remember his first name, but he was killed in the show. So they were looking for somebody to play Sipowitz's first wife. And they did a big, huge audition. And I auditioned here in New York and I got it, unbelievably so. And I went out there and I did this one scene, with Dennis, where he comes to the house, my son has died, and it's a very moving scene. That was it. And then about three years later, I can't remember how many years later, they called again, and they wanted me to come back. And then I came back as a, I wasn't a regular, but I came back on a regular basis, they would fly me.

And that's when they started writing, she was now an alcoholic, she'd had these bad, and David Milch was writing these brilliant scripts for me. I mean, they were just amazing. And that's why I won the Emmy. So I didn't ever thought I'd be back on the show. So that's, it's always so shocking to me that I came back and then they wrote this part for me and they, and also David Milch wrote, it's all about the writing. I have to say everything I've done that I've got any kudos for, or anything, is the storytelling element. You know, I try to bring everything I can to it, but these are great stories. These are great characters, so deep and so deeply filled. And then I had the great Dennis Franz to work with.

So it was shocking. Even Dennis, they were all surprised because back then, what was starting to happen and still happens, I think a lot is these Emmys for best supporting actors or featured actors and a recurring guest star. They were given to, they used to be like really just wonderful actors. Then they started changing to being like all movie stars or all, you know, big stars. So for the most part, that would be like a big star would get that, who would come in and do like a cameo and then they get that Emmy. So I was up against, I can't remember who it was, but I know Dennis was, they were all kind of surprised too, because usually, you know, when they get these ballots, they just go for the names they know.

I'm not really that well known. So it was a kind of a surprise. And I remember that Robbie Marshall took, was my date at the, he was out there doing that. He was my date to the Emmys and I had bought a dress at, I couldn't get anybody to help me with a dress because I'm not, I wasn't a tiny little number two. So I went to Saks and just bought a dress off the rack and went and I, they called my name and I couldn't believe it. And then I had to go and be interviewed by the press and they said, who made your dress? And I went, it was, I looked at the label, I said Saks. So I was like, and then you have to go back because I won, I was able to go, oh, first of all, that was the, that Emmy was at, I call it the Peanuts and Beer at the Holiday Inn Emmy, because it's not televised.

It's all for the, you know, the technical awards and the guest star awards. So nobody really saw it. So then I got to go back to present an award and I, and I decided to wear the same dress. And somebody said, you can't do that. I said, well, nobody saw it. We were at the Holiday Inn, you know, with the nuts and the beer. I go back and I don't have a publicist or anything. And I just go and I said, hi, I'm Deborah Monk. I'm here. And they said, well, yeah, just get in line. So I got in line and I happened to be behind Jane Krakowski going down the line and she was all dressed up and they were all taking pictures of her. And I was walking a little bit behind her and nobody took my picture. And she was going, they were going, Jane.

And she was going, Jane. And she went, hi, dad. I went, hi. I was just walking by, nobody's taking my picture. And finally I say, hey, Jane, I'll see you later. So I skipped that line. But anyway, it was humbling and yet really quite amazing. With all the on-camera work, was there any ever desire to move out to Los Angeles?

[01:01:36] Debra Monk: Never. Great. Good. I don't like, I mean, I love the working out there, but to be in LA and not working, I find to be so depressing for me. I just love New York. And I always wanted to do theater. I mean, luckily through a lot of these television and movies, I was able to continue to work. They would work around me and let me do my shows. It was really important. I love living in New York. I'm a New Yorker.

[01:02:08] Robert W. Schneider: We love having you. Is there anything that you haven't done yet in theater that you would like to do? You've done plays, musicals, revivals, new works. Is there anything you'd still like to cross off your bucket list?

[01:02:18] Debra Monk: I'd love to do, I mean, I would just love to do another play, another musical. I never had those, like, these are the musicals I want to do, or these are the plays I want to do. I just still have so much more to learn as an actor. I feel like it would just be so great to be, and especially now, I mean, after having Broadway and Off-Broadway and all theater closed for so long, it would be an honor. I mean, an incredible privilege and honor to be able to do a play again or to do a musical again. I mean, I hope I get that chance. I'm getting older, you know, but I would love to, I really would. I just feel like I have so much to still learn as an actor, you know, so much to learn about relaxation and really enjoying it and not being in it for the wrong, you know, not worrying about a laugh.

I mean, I want to have the wisdom to, like, think that even if it feels like it wasn't a great show, that I learned something. Because not every show is going to be a perfect show, you know? And we all know, we've gone out there and done these shows, which you think are great, and the reviews come out, and it's not a good show, which in their mind. So I would like to get to the point where I can really enjoy that. And I get that. And I learned from the other actors, you know, to be able to work with a lot of different actors would be great. So I'd love to be able to work again.

[01:03:41] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah. In quarantine, what have you been doing to keep yourself artistically satisfied? I know Gilded Age is coming up, but what were you doing before that?

[01:03:47] Debra Monk: I was doing lots, like a lot of actors and performers, benefits on Zoom, a lot of, I did those 24-hour play things where, you know, you were sent a monologue. And those were really interesting to do. I had to memorize them and do them. So, you know, it was keeping everything oiled up. Yeah. I did, we did a wonderful production of singing, curtains of singing show people. We did that. That was a big, huge thing to put together. So I was singing and doing lots of, I did readings of plays. So that was really great. It kept us quite busy, especially with the benefits, trying to come up with things to do to help, you know, to help to raise the money. That was the most important thing or most all these things that I did were to raise money.

So it was really great. It's not my favorite thing to do because I'm not technically very skilled. And I always feel like it takes, you know, to do one thing would take me like four hours figuring out how to do it and do it right. It was just like exhausting, but I'm glad I was happy for that. Happy to do those things. I asked to be on panels, you know, I did those, whatever, whatever they asked me to do. I tried, if I was available, I wanted to do to help.

[01:05:11] Robert W. Schneider: The last question that we always ask our guests is, you know, what do you know now that you wished you had known when you, you know, you were just leaving SMU, you were first coming to the city. What do you know now that you wished you had known then?

[01:05:21] Debra Monk: That I will never be perfect. That there's no such thing. It's just a process. You know, I always start a show after all the rehearsal, you open up, but by the end of that experience, whether it be two months, three months, six months, you, I said, oh my gosh, I wish I knew then when I first started, but you never will. So the idea is to let it unfold. And I'm trying to be more relaxed about saying, okay, I'm not going to know everything. I'll do everything I can. The other thing is to do it technically, it's not a bad thing. Sometimes you have to sing it technically, you have to act it technically. It doesn't mean you're not feeling it or the audience doesn't see that. To be a good technician is not a bad thing because what happens is you can then fill it.

And I, like I said, I've said, I've had many moments on, I don't really understand it. And sometimes I'm getting laughs. I don't really understand it. And then later on, I go, oh my God, that's what that was. You know, you know, it was taking a pause. It was this or allowing, you know, allowing the silence to be there as a big thing, not to feel like you have to rush is a big thing I've learned. Try to keep doing things, whether it be readings or workshops. And that's what I did. I've done a thousand readings, you know also don't be afraid to audition for everything you feel you're right. And only auditions for things you really are right for. If you, if you're, you know, a lot of people think I can audition for anything and I tried that too and that doesn't work, but you know to try to enjoy it, try to have a good time and, and, and know that things do, do get easier, easier in that you're able to, the wisdom of being able to take a silence, to make a mistake, to be in a failure, to not get a part, to see all your friends working and you're not working.

That's a time to support them more than ever. You know, things like that. Those are things that I couldn't know when I was younger, you know, because I, I do believe when one door shuts, another door opens, you know, I really do believe that. So, but those are hard things, you know we want, especially when you're young, you want it all, you want it done, you want to get it, you want to be, you want to be a star, you want a good thing, you want to make money and, and you should, you know, but it doesn't always work that way. It didn't work that way for me.

[01:07:56] Robert W. Schneider: Deborah, thank you so, so much for your time today. And also on behalf of us and all of our listeners, you know, like we said in the beginning, anytime that we know that you're going to be in a show, we know that we're going to have a brilliant, fantastic performance and it's going to be a transformative experience. Thank you so much for inspiring so many people with your brilliant artistry and we can't wait to see you on stage again, hopefully sometime soon.

[01:08:16] Debra Monk: Can't wait. Thank you, Robert and Kevin. Thank you for asking me to do this. It's always fun to go down memory lane and it just makes me just feel incredibly grateful for, for everything and for everybody who's been so kind to me through this business. Thank you. This has been such an honor.

[01:08:32] Robert W. Schneider: Thank you for listening to today's episode and a big thanks to the punchy players, Jeff Marquis, who is bringing back Lucy, Betty, Judy, and Morta Schill for us. And a big thanks to our sound editor, Daniel Schwartzberg and social media manager, Bethany Ann Selecki. And don't forget, we want more folks to hear these incredible stories and that's where you come in. In order for people to find out about us, we need lots of ratings on iTunes. So head on over to iTunes, search for Behind the Curtain, Broadway's Living Legends, click on our logo, click on ratings and reviews, then write a review and leave us five stars and make us feel as special as Eliza Doolittle on Eliza Doolittle Day. Or you can leave us just one star and you can make us feel as baddy, baddy, bad as Annie did in that really weird production in Boston where Annie dreamt that she was being adopted, but then she ended up back in the orphanage, right back where she started. Yeah, true story. Rob saw it.

[01:09:30] Kevin David Thomas: Yes, and it was baddy. It was bizarre. I was there. I was. Oh, good. So head on over to iTunes and make us feel even more special than we already did.