This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:01] Chris Adams: And that's not on there, is it? I've not found it anywhere.

[0:04] Holly Morgan: Kenny was posh, he had a video camera on his shoulder.

[0:08] Chris Adams: It was big, wasn't it?

[0:09] Holly Morgan: It was a whopper.

[0:10] Chris Adams: Yes.

[0:11] Holly Morgan: They were big then, though.

[0:12] Chris Adams: They were!

[0:13] Holly Morgan: I was so impressed you had one.

[0:15] Chris Adams: I had one.

[0:16] Holly Morgan: And thank goodness.

[0:17] Chris Adams: How did you know these existed?

[0:20] Holly Morgan: We were on eBay.

[0:21] Chris Adams: I think it was on eBay.

[0:22] Holly Morgan: Back in the day when you could get anything on eBay.

[0:24] Chris Adams: So you're proper full-on stalker.

[0:25] Holly Morgan: I know, right? I feel a bit embarrassed.

[0:27] Chris Adams: How much did you pay?

[0:29] Holly Morgan: I can't remember properly too much.

[0:31] Chris Adams: And it was on an old school videotape as well.

[0:33] Holly Morgan: It's all on YouTube now.

[0:35] Chris Adams: It is on YouTube.

[0:36] Holly Morgan: We could have said fortune.

[0:37] Chris Adams: I'll sell you my Carrie shoes. I've got them in the loft somewhere.

[0:39] Holly Morgan: Really?

[0:41] Chris Adams: Hey!

[0:58] Holly Morgan: We're back.

[0:59] Chris Adams: Hello.

[1:00] Holly Morgan: I'm afraid we just couldn't stay away.

[1:02] Chris Adams: So we are back for one last little jaunt into the life of one Carrietta White with this special bonus episode of Out for Blood, your favourite reassessment of Broadway's ultimate flop, Carrie the Musical.

[1:13] Holly Morgan: Out for Blood!

[1:22] Chris Adams: So we wanted to come back and record this new episode firstly to say an enormous thank you to everyone who has downloaded and listened to the show since we launched in January. It's been absolutely overwhelming, hasn't it?

[1:34] Holly Morgan: It definitely has.

[1:35] Chris Adams: I think we expected maybe like a few hardcore Carrie nerds to listen.

[1:39] Holly Morgan: Basically like me and you a few hundred times each.

[1:41] Chris Adams: Yeah, exactly. So imagine our surprised little faces when we saw thousands of people each week listening to the show and sending us such lovely feedback.

[1:48] Holly Morgan: Someone described us as basically cereal for Carrie.

[1:52] Chris Adams: We love you. I mean, you can't argue back with that, can you?

[1:55] Holly Morgan: No.

[1:56] Chris Adams: So if you downloaded, subscribed, left a review or just said hello on social media, it really has meant the world to us. We hope you enjoyed the ride.

[2:03] Holly Morgan: Our second reason for coming back to your feed is that, well, our original episodes were recorded quite a long time ago. And since we started releasing them each week, we heard from several more people we would have loved to have included in the show.

[2:15] Chris Adams: Yeah, we did manage to make a few quick last-minute edits as we went along to drop in some memories. Sorry, Tom.

[2:22] Holly Morgan: You are forgiven.

[2:24] Chris Adams: But there are a few other cool stories that we'd like to share with you today as a sort of wrap-up of the series. And we may also share a few of our favourite unheard interview clips that we just couldn't squeeze in somewhere in the last 11 weeks.

[2:35] Holly Morgan: 11 episodes about Carrie. So stupid.

[2:38] Chris Adams: I think we've lasted longer than the show itself.

[2:40] Holly Morgan: I think we did. Now, I've been stuck in my house a lot talking about Carrie for most of the year. Has anything else been going on in the real world?

[2:47] Chris Adams: New president.

[2:48] Holly Morgan: Oh, yeah. So you know times are a-changing when the inauguration video includes high-kicking Broadway stars.

[2:54] Chris Adams: Yes. Remember that medley of Seasons of Love and Let the Sun Shine In?

[2:57] Holly Morgan: Oh, yes.

[2:58] Chris Adams: It featured not one, but two, count them, Carrie the Musical original cast members. Betty Buckley and Charlotte d'Amboise.

[3:05] Holly Morgan: I really think there should have been a medley of Don't Waste the Moon, though, don't you?

[3:08] Chris Adams: I think it's worth bearing in mind for the future. Kamala?

[3:12] Holly Morgan: So what else has been happening in the Carrieverse?

[3:14] Chris Adams: Well, firstly, before we go any further, I think probably one of the most surprising things to come out of all of this is that Tom, our long-suffering editor in the corner over there, is now a fan of Carrie the Musical.

[3:24] Holly Morgan: Yeah, it's true. He plays it in the kitchen a lot.

[3:27] Chris Adams: Oh, OK, so we should just explain that Holly and Tom are married.

[3:29] Holly Morgan: She hasn't kidnapped him.

[3:30] Chris Adams: Yeah, that's the official line. In fact, Tom, come on the mic, come round here, and tell us why you love Carrie so much, you big weirdo.

[3:40] Holly Morgan: Come on, up you come.

[3:41] Chris Adams: Come on, you can have my mic.

[3:42] Holly Morgan: I've got everything prepared. Come on, on the mic, please.

[3:44] Chris Adams: Get on.

[3:45] Tom Moores: Thank you. So why do you like Carrie?

[3:48] Tom Moores: Well, it's a bit like Stockholm Syndrome, for starters.

[3:52] Chris Adams: Rude.

[3:53] Tom Moores: It's been impossible not to be exposed to it in quite a significant way. There was a point at which you definitely said, I think you know the Carrie songs better than I do now, because I'd had to listen to them so many times.

[4:03] Chris Adams: That's probably got something to do with why I've ended up listening to it in my free time.

[4:06] Holly Morgan: Yeah.

[4:07] Tom Moores: I like the message that you sent me the other day that was like, oh no, my YouTube is full of Carrie the Musical.

[4:14] Chris Adams: The algorithm has found me.

[4:17] Tom Moores: Yeah, my YouTube suggestions are now all Carrie-related. And when I was just closing down some browser tabs to get ready for this session, I discovered Emily Lopez's audition video. And several audience filmed versions of the L.A. bit where the destruction where Chris gets thrown away.

[4:38] Chris Adams: You do like the new version, don't you?

[4:39] Tom Moores: Yeah, you do. You're a fan of the revisal.

[4:42] Tom Moores: Yeah, I really like it.

[4:44] Chris Adams: So my dream Carrie, which I've obviously been thinking about quite a lot, is essentially like the revival songs but with the orchestration of the original.

[4:57] Holly Morgan: Yes.

[4:58] Tom Moores: Because one of the things listening to the soundboard recording that I've really enjoyed is it just sounds so great.

[5:03] Chris Adams: Yeah.

[5:04] Tom Moores: The full orchestra, which they'll never get back because of the expense of it anyway and how many shows really have a full orchestra now anyway. But the sound that comes with it, so the driving beat and the amazing brass and stuff, it just sounds so expansive and great.

[5:21] Chris Adams: But yeah, I think I sort of came up with... My sort of vague enjoyment of it is that I think Michael Gore is the most incredible ear for a melody. It's just so...

[5:29] Holly Morgan: Yes.

[5:30] Tom Moores: And all the songs, even the ones that you guys have been very disparaging about, which I've been quite upset.

[5:35] Chris Adams: I don't think we have.

[5:37] Tom Moores: But like Don't Waste the Moon and stuff like that.

[5:39] Holly Morgan: We love Don't Waste the Moon.

[5:41] Tom Moores: It's just a banger.

[5:42] Chris Adams: It is a bang.

[5:43] Tom Moores: It's a bop, as the kids would say on Twitter.

[5:45] Holly Morgan: It's a bop.

[5:46] Tom Moores: It slaps.

[5:47] Chris Adams: It does slap.

[5:49] Tom Moores: And even stuff like Out for Blood or Crackerjack.

[5:52] Holly Morgan: Yes.

[5:55] Tom Moores: Some of those songs, even when the verse isn't the most hummable thing, it's that one and what's the other one that has... Oh, In. So In's verse sort of does the job, gets the information across, but the choruses are absolutely hammers.

[6:11] Chris Adams: Thank you, Tom.

[6:12] Tom Moores: Thank you.

[6:13] Chris Adams: Back in your box.

[6:14] Holly Morgan: Your next, Paddy.

[6:15] Chris Adams: Oh, Christ.

[6:17] Holly Morgan: Hand sand that surface.

[6:18] Chris Adams: Thank you.

[6:19] Holly Morgan: Right. Okay, so we've converted at least one person to the cult. Holly, you had an inspirational idea for the title of a possible Margaret White origin musical.

[6:27] Chris Adams: Yes.

[6:29] Holly Morgan: The World According to Christ.

[6:34] Chris Adams: For God's sake. Can someone get on that, please?

[6:37] Holly Morgan: Maybe I'll do it as a one-woman show in next year's Edinburgh.

[6:39] Chris Adams: You heard it here first, I suppose. Okay, now that we've got that level of nonsense ticked off the list...

[6:45] Holly Morgan: Yes.

[6:46] Chris Adams: In our first episode, we covered the early workshop production of Carrie, starring, among others, the legendary Annie Golden.

[6:52] Holly Morgan: This is not my first rodeo.

[6:54] Chris Adams: No.

[6:57] Holly Morgan: Fair to say we were a bit excited to talk to Annie. Chris, I recently listened back to the noise you made when Annie revealed she used to hang out with Jackie Deshanin and Cher.

[7:06] Chris Adams: So I was in that dressing room, so I got to meet Jackie Deshanin and Cher and...

[7:14] Holly Morgan: LAUGHTER

[7:23] Chris Adams: It sounds like you've been physically injured with envy there.

[7:28] Holly Morgan: It means I'm now one degree of separation from Cher. Anyway, Annie came back to us with some extra deets, not about Carrie, but about that epic B movie she was filming at the same time.

[7:39] Chris Adams: Ah, Queen Morgan.

[7:42] Holly Morgan: Baby, you do look good. I know some of you got a bit obsessed with Street Walking 2. It is available... The trailer is available on YouTube, at least. I'm not sure if the original is. But she remembered that the guy playing the dodgy pimp...

[7:54] Chris Adams: Hey.

[7:55] Holly Morgan: What is this?

[7:56] Chris Adams: Step down, my mate.

[7:57] Holly Morgan: Up it. You're late.

[7:59] Chris Adams: Well, he has another Stephen King connection. That's Dale Midkiff, who played the lead in Pet Sematary.

[8:05] Holly Morgan: Amazing! All roads lead to Stephen King. Now, that novel would make a good musical. They could see if they could borrow the costumes from Cats. Save a bit of cash.

[8:14] Chris Adams: Annie also managed to connect us to the lovely Todd Graff, who played Tommy Ross alongside her in the original Carrie workshop. Now, we were too late to get his memories into the first episode. We've squeezed in a few comments from him since then, and we've got more of his interview to play for you now.

[8:28] Todd Graff: Well, it was a really long time ago, and my memory's not great anyway. But I couldn't even tell you. I think his name was Tommy? Was that the character I played?

[8:39] Chris Adams: Yeah.

[8:40] Todd Graff: Okay. First up, we asked Todd what it was like to play Tommy.

[8:44] Todd Graff: So, in the movie, obviously, it's the William Catt, all-American, you know, blonde-haired, blue-eyed, muscly guy, which I certainly, even then, clearly, now I'm not, but even then, I was far from. You know, I was, like, the skinny, character-y, you know, Jew-y kind of urban guy. But, for whatever reason, I think because I had had somewhat of a success with a Broadway show that I was in, and Michael and Larry saw that show and then just approached me to see if I wanted to do this thing. And I had gone off to do a movie. That show was called Baby, and I had left Baby early to do a movie, actually, an English movie, although we shot it in English, in England, called Not Quite Paradise. I mean, it's not in Israel, called Not Quite Paradise, that Lewis Gilbert directed.

But anyway, so I was out of the country, and then when I came back, which I came back for the Tony Awards, because I was nominated for a Tony, so I came back to do the Tonys and those shows, organized to be in the workshop for Carrie. And so, just in between shooting the movie and leaving the show and coming back to the show, etc., we just kind of shoehorned in the Carrie workshop. I knew that I had recorded, as any actor would, the music rehearsal, because it's when they teach you the songs, you go home and you listen to the tape a million times, and that's how you memorize what you're supposed to sing. And so, for whatever reason, I'd never thrown it out. Naturally, we were very excited by this revelation.

So, I got it digitized, and listened to it for the first time in God knows how long, and thought, oh, wow, this really is crazy. This is where it all began. This was the very first rehearsal of the very first workshop ever of Carrie, of what became the Carrie musical phenomenon. So, anyway, when I heard about what you guys were doing, that's why I thought, I'm sure I'm the only idiot that saved for 36 years the rehearsal tape cassette from the very first rehearsal ever of it. But that's where it came from.

[11:12] Chris Adams: Oh, my God. Folks, this is a bit special. A world premiere of what we think is the earliest recording of the Carrie workshop cast, which has never been heard before, thanks to Todd. It was recorded in one of the writers' apartments around a piano, and there are just three songs. First up...

[11:28] Todd Graff: This is going to be the most exciting.

[11:40] ♪ Musical number: "Don't Waste the Moon" — performed by Todd Graff and others ♪

[12:40] ♪ Musical number: "Do Me A Favour" — performed by Todd Graff and others ♪

[14:01] ♪ Musical number: "Dreamer in Disguise" — performed by Todd Graff and others ♪

[14:29] Chris Adams: The show sounds really fresh and catchy. You can see why people were genuinely excited about the show in its workshop form.

[14:40] Todd Graff: Annabelle's just another bird until he can spread his wings. A river's just a sheet of ice till winter turns to spring. And though the clouds may block the sun, don't mean that it's left the sky. Just when you think you've seen enough, there's more than meets the eye.

[15:15] Holly Morgan: Wow, Todd's voice! I need more of this early Carrie joyousness. I mean, sadly, that's all we have. But thanks so much to young Todd Graff for saving that tape recording.

[15:26] Chris Adams: Yes! Of course, Todd played Tommy before a director for the full show was on board. And, like Annie and the rest of the workshop cast, didn't move on to the full production. But his Carrie connections didn't end there.

[15:37] Todd Graff: I was clearly not going to be in the show, and rightly so, considering how insanely miscast I would have been. And also, there was no director in the workshop. You know, it was before Terry Hands came on, so he would need to cast his own cast, of course. So I was no longer in the show, but I knew a lot about the show, and I was kind of a friend at court.

[16:01] Chris Adams: Now a close friend of the writers, he was sent on an observation mission to Stratford during the run there to see how things were going. And, as you'll probably remember, it was a pretty chaotic time.

[16:12] Todd Graff: I didn't want to go alone, so I brought Lindsay Duncan and Hilton Jacobs with me, and the three of us went up to Stratford to see Carrie, all excited. And then it was, it was surreal. It was so incredibly insane. Like everyone, Todd was quite taken aback to see how the show had turned out. It was just, you know, some of the choices were so incomprehensible.

[16:36] Todd Graff: So anyway, that was a long night in the pub afterward, hanging out with the people that made the show, who were there saying, OK, so what do you think? And, you know, what are you going to say?

[16:47] Todd Graff: I had a whole career, first as an actor, and then I had a whole career as a screenwriter, with a lot of movies made, and producer. And it was, I was unhappy with how, because I generate my own material typically, I was unhappy with handing it over to other directors and then seeing the movies not be what I wanted them to be or thought they would be.

[17:09] Todd Graff: And here's another great connection. You'll remember Todd was closely connected to the Stage Door Manor theatre camp, attending as a teenager and then teaching there as an adult. His time there inspired him to create the classic cult movie, Camp.

[17:22] Todd Graff: I just sort of found these kids and, I mean, now some of them are famous, but at the time, none of them had done anything. It was everybody's first movie. And realized that if I was going to make a movie that anyone would let me direct, it would have to be something that really nobody else could direct. And this was my experience. It was so autobiographical of what my childhood was like at this camp. And so, you know, that's it. Wrote it. And then we made it in, I think, like 18 days. And yeah, I think it has like 12 musical numbers in it or something. And we did it in 18 days. It was crazy, obviously. But, you know, we got it done.

[18:04] Todd Graff: Michael Gore came in and wrote music for two of the songs. And it was, you know, for me, obviously, it was life-changing because then after that I was a director.

[18:15] Chris Adams: Amazing. We also managed to speak to Paul Schwartz, who was the musical director for Carrie on Broadway, but also involved in the music rehearsal process back in Stratford. Like many things to do with the show, it's a particularly tense tale for everyone involved.

[18:30] Paul Schwartz: So I was originally hired to be the person that took over the show when it opened in New York. I gathered that Michael Gore, composer, was not feeling musically supported in Stratford.

[18:49] Paul Schwartz: I believe that Michael and the original English MD hadn't gelled particularly well. And Michael, I think, felt that as a younger and an American, and for some reason he thought I had a pop music background, which I totally did not, felt that I would come in and kind of get all the pop numbers. Because, you know, Michael Gore's background was as a record producer. I mean, apart from scoring fame and all of that, his main thing was he was a record producer. So he came from a pop with a capital P background. And he wanted more of that kind of pop feel in the pop half of the score.

[19:31] Paul Schwartz: So he kind of initiated this thing of flying me over, which I think Terry was totally against. So my initial arrival there was a little bit fraught. I think I got there like late January. So they were maybe, I don't remember if it was January or February, but they'd already finished rehearsing in London and they were now ensconced in Stratford.

[19:58] Paul Schwartz: And I do remember kind of arriving for my first moment of rehearsal literally fresh off the plane. And I'm sitting and there's a big rehearsal room at the top of the theatre with lots of beautiful windows. And I was sitting there talking to some of the dancers and Terry walked in and I kind of walked up to him with my hand out saying, Hi, Terry, I'm Paul, and he just didn't react to me at all.

[20:22] Chris Adams: Yikes. With Terry's choice of musical director already in place, Paul didn't quite know how best to fit in.

[20:28] Paul Schwartz: So I kind of, you know, took a few vocal rehearsals and, you know, whatever. So that's how I got introduced to the project. And I mean, I had I made very quick, fast friends with the two orchestrators, Anders and Michael Steroven, and we really got along very, very well. And so that was helpful. And then eventually Terry warmed up and he was fine.

[20:56] Paul Schwartz: Originally in Stratford, the orchestrations have been done by Michael Steroven and Anders Elyas. Based on their expertise and backgrounds, Michael had taken on the more operatic songs, while Anders, who had previously arranged music for ABBA, took on the more poppy sections.

[21:14] Chris Adams: We spoke to Michael, who explained the role of an orchestrator in the development of a new musical.

[21:19] Michael Starobin: On most musicals, the composer who composes the music for the songs only writes it for piano. Sometimes they're capable of orchestrating, but there usually isn't time because orchestrations can't be, which is basically what the orchestra plays beyond the piano, aren't written till the show is in rehearsal. So they have to be written very quickly in the last four to eight weeks, depending on the rehearsal period. And then they have to be changed. And at the same time, the composer is busy altering the score and sitting in rehearsals doing things. So they usually can't be the same person.

[21:57] Chris Adams: How did Michael get involved in Carrie?

[21:59] Michael Starobin: I had a huge breakthrough in that. I had done a couple of little off-Broadway shows, Bill Finn's In Trousers and March of the Falsettos, and a couple of other small off-Broadway shows. But on March of the Falsettos, it was directed by this upcoming director, writer, James Lapine, who, when he started his collaboration with Stephen Sondheim on Sunday in the Park, said, you got to try this young kid out, young, try him out. And so at the age of 26, I turned 27 during the process. Stephen's show Sunday in the Park with George, which sort of burst me on the scene a little earlier than I was ready for at that age. And I was the hot young flavor in the mid 80s. And at the time, Michael Gore got in touch with me and said, loved your work on Sunday in the Park. I'd like you to do this show.

[23:00] Michael Starobin: What were the practicalities of teaming up with another orchestrator? Essentially, I did the mother-daughter scenes. He did the more pop-oriented high school songs. And so we sort of split it that way. We even did one number where we split it. You know, we sat together and orchestrated together.

[23:20] Michael Starobin: There were other tensions at play, which added to the complexity of the orchestrator's job. Barbara Cook was doing the show in Stratford, and she was very unhappy with how it was going and how her numbers were shaped. She said, let me bring in my music director, Wally Harper. Wally is one of the great dance arrangers on Broadway. He's no longer with us. And she said, but don't bring him in just to make me happy and not use his work. Bring him in if you're willing to take some of his ideas. And I said, sure. They flew Wally in. He did some arrangements for a couple of her numbers, which they completely rejected.

[24:00] Chris Adams: Do you want another iconic Barbara Cook story?

[24:01] Michael Starobin: I can never get enough. I actually remember after we got the Eve, we rehearsed just with the orchestra. The Eve was weak orchestration. And then I invited Barbara to come in. And, you know, she kind of stood on the edge of the pit in the big theater and played smash, bang, bang. You know, it's the right of the Valkyries and everything kind of rolled into one. When we finished, I kind of turned around to look at her and she said, well, I can sing smart, but I'm not sure I can sing that smart. It was just so huge.

[24:33] Michael Starobin: And the famous quote I always remember was Barbara. Barbara Cook standing on the stage and they were about to do in tech her scene that came after the pig scene. And they said, Barbara, you need to you need to move back. We're going to close up the pit where the pig comes out. And she said, well, you better shovel all the shit into it first. You know what I mean? You know, it was it had reached that point where we kind of knew.

[25:05] Chris Adams: What a legend. We got so much great feedback about Barbara and her sass.

[25:10] Michael Starobin: Aspirational. Director Terry Hands decided that changes had to be made for the Broadway transfer. And so the orchestration was completely redone by Harold Wheeler, who had worked on the music for other big commercial shows like Dreamgirls. They decided with all their problems after Stratford that the reason the show wasn't working was orchestrations. So they hired Harold Wheeler, who came in for the New York production and rewrote some of our stuff. But a lot of it remained. And Harold says they were also asking him what to do about the show in general, which he was kind of like, I can help you with the music, but I don't know. You know, I'm no book writer.

[25:53] Paul Schwartz: Despite admiring all the orchestrators and their work, Paul could never understand the point of the change.

[25:59] Paul Schwartz: I am in no way knocking Harold's work because Harold, you know, did we orchestrated and his work was all really beautiful. But the original orchestrations were absolutely extraordinary. They were really, really good from both fellows. I mean, really good. Anders's stuff was just quirky and weird and exciting. And then Michael just kind of ran whole hog into the Wagnerian thing. I mean, it was just the the Eve was weak number. I mean, it sounded like Good to Dammerung or something. It was huge.

[26:39] Chris Adams: We asked whether he thought it could have been Terry's reaction to the criticisms that the show felt like two completely different products welded together.

[26:45] Paul Schwartz: It had nothing to do with that. What it was was that Terry was looking for something to pin the blame on. And he said he said, I mean, the day after we opened in Stratford to the worst reviews in the history of the British theatre. The one that I remember was The Daily Telegraph, which is a fairly conservative publication, had the line, as I recall in the review, I think it said, after seeing Carrie, one begins to wonder what the S in RSC actually stands for. Terry's reaction at the sort of the company meeting afterwards was, you know, don't anyone worry about this? As soon as we get the orchestration sorted out, it will be fine. And and so that was what he pinned it on.

[27:29] Chris Adams: How did the new orchestrations change the sound of the show?

[27:32] Paul Schwartz: There was there was a little bit more of a modernistic glint to Anders's stuff that Harold. Harold was, you know, was a Broadway big band jazz guy. So the sort of what was kind of hip and contemporary and a little bit electronic in what Anders did. Because, I mean, for example, the the. I remember when I first heard when we first ran the orchestration for the Do Me A Favor number, it was really I mean, it was like hair on your arms standing up on the orchestration. It was that good. And Harold basically saw what that was and just kind of rearranged it a little bit. I mean, and he did beautiful work. I mean, I loved Harold.

[28:20] Chris Adams: The opening of Do Me A Favor does actually sound very different between the Stratford and Broadway bootlegs. In Stratford, the music uses a menacing, futuristic soundscape to open the song. While on Broadway, this almost minute long opening of the song was adapted to be played by much more traditional instruments, echoing the synthy sound of the rest of the songs in the show.

[29:00] Paul Schwartz: There were other musical changes between Stratford and Broadway. And we had a much bigger orchestra in Stratford than we did in New York. We had 36 in Stratford and 25 in New York, which is very normal. I mean, 25 is a big orchestra for New York.

[29:20] Michael Starobin: I think Phantom is 25 now. When Phantom opened it was 28 and that was the biggest orchestra on Broadway at that time. I'm pretty sure we had 25 on Broadway. We just had more strings and probably like, you know, an extra French horn at Stratford. Other than that, you know, it was pretty much the same. Barbara Cook's departure from Carrie after the Stratford run, with Betty Buckley stepping into the role of Margaret White on Broadway, also changed the pace and energy of the production. It changed the atmosphere because she's a completely different kind of an actor from Barbara. Barbara was wildly miscast. I mean, you couldn't have tried harder to find the wrong person to play that part. I just think, you know, I just think that Terry loved her voice, which is a great fabulous.

She was a wonderful singer and a wonderful musical theatre performer, but she didn't have the steely edge that this part requires and Betty absolutely did. I mean, Betty was fabulous in the part. For Michael, he had a sense very early on in the rehearsal process that things weren't going to end well for Carrie. You would tend, you drop by cast rehearsals a bunch and you did a lot more often back in those days before it was so easy to make a video on a phone and send it to the orchestrator. You had to go in to see numbers and it just, I had a sense like, this isn't coming together right. This just, the way it's staging just doesn't seem like it's coming together. I just had an early feeling and then seeing the physical production in Stratford was like, oh my God, it was jaw dropping.

Michael had some other great stories which nobody had mentioned to us and really illustrate some of the chaos of those early days of the show. Remember that massive shiny disco ball that was cut from the prom scene? There's more. I mean, there was this one point where there was a scene for the high school dance and they had done these planets, but that were big, huge plastic globes that were supposed to be like planets, but they were melted and misshapen. And Wally Harper was sitting in the back with Barbara and my wife and said, boy, those look like Shelly Winter's uterus. And the enormous descending staircase in the final moments of the show? Too big. It was made too big. They made a mistake in the design during tech and when they tried to bring it down, the whole thing was six inches too long on either side and they stopped tech for a day and there were like 10 stagehands with hand saws sawing up the edges of the roof to get it to fit.

[32:19] Michael Starobin: Now, Michael's worked on a lot of musicals in his career. What does he think was at the root of Carrie's downfall? There's two rules I find for new musicals. If the director has never done a musical before, he has to surround himself with everyone of great experience at musicals because it's a completely different beast than a regular show. I've seen many, many shows fall apart for that exact reason. And the second one is if a show is never meant to be a musical because its subject is not right for musicalization, nothing in the world will fix it. And both of those rules were broken in Carrie. I mean, so when you asked me what they could do, the basic problem was it was a horror story. Horror is about realism.

The stage is not about realism. Horror is a film genre. And so you had to replace horror with something else. And I don't think they quite did that. So it became this sort of high school musical like Fame, but it didn't have the heartwarming, striving things that the typical high school growing up and having sex musical has. So I don't think anything could have saved the show.

[33:47] Chris Adams: Next, let's talk about pigs, baby.

[33:49] Holly Morgan: Oh, my favorite subject.

[33:55] Chris Adams: So we spoke to the lovely Jeremy Sturt way back in the series. You'll remember Jeremy was the deputy stage manager for the show, both in Stratford and on Broadway, and found himself entrenched in all the madness and mayhem. And notably, he was involved in Barbara Cook's epic hardware incident.

[34:10] Holly Morgan: Yes, presenting an axe and a sledgehammer to director Terry Hands in a subtle hint that the musical script might need some work. Well, our section on the act two opener, Crackerjack, or Out for Blood as it came to be known, with its mysterious fiery pig pit on the stage, prompted another hilarious memory from Jeremy.

[34:28] Jeremy Sturt: So listening to the story about Out for Blood, it just reminded me that when the show was in Stratford and we had the number was the number of set to sorry, of act two was Crackerjack. And for Crackerjack, we had the pit open. And the reason we had the pit open was the fact that we had for the middle of the number, an animatronic bucking pig. Yes, a real animatronic bucking pig was in the pit, which used to come up in the middle of the courses and squeal a bit and then go back down again. And for the actual finale of the number, jumping into the pit and actually knife in the pit in the back and loads of blood coming out. Now, this was cut from the show pretty early on at Stratford because we had numerous complaints from the audience about the blood, about the squealing pig and about people either fainting or upsetting their kids.

When I got to Broadway, I went to had a coffee with Michael Starobin, one of the original orchestrators on the show. Brilliant bloke since won three Tony Awards. Brace yourself. And I walked into his office and there in the room was the pig. And he had actually taken it from the show and asked for it to be wrapped up, put on a ship, taken all the way to Broadway. And he has it in his office.

[36:07] Chris Adams: OK, I have questions. One, who takes their kids to see Carrie the musical? That's my first question. Second question, I think. Why did we not know about this blood spurting animatronic pig before now? Lastly, how do we meet this pig? Does it still exist? We need a 10-part original podcast series just focusing on that pig's adventures. I sat through Betty Blue Eyes. I'm owed this.

[36:35] Holly Morgan: Well, we asked Michael to confirm if this little pig story is true.

[36:40] Michael Starobin: They would take, they had this pig that was about six feet long, latex pig with floppy ears and a stagehand would take it and lift it up like, you know, and there'd be sort of oinking sounds playing from the sound guy. And the guy would punch the pig and the pig would come up. He'd punch it again. He punched it a few more times. Then he reached down and pulled up a bucket. I believe that was the staging. How did the blood get in the bucket? What happened? I don't know. But so what happened was the pig got cut from the show. He played Stratford. They brought him to New York, but they decided they didn't want the pig in New York. I heard that they're going to throw out the pig. And I said, I want the pig.

Seriously, I can't deal with this anymore. We have to stop this madness. I want the pig. Don't throw it out. If you're going to throw it out, I think because they would have had to ship it back to Stratford. There was no money left to ship anything back to Stratford. I don't know if the pig had appeared in other productions of Shakespeare or Jacobean murder plays or anything. So I said, so they brought the pig outside and I got Anders. Now, Anders and I each had another show opening on Broadway at the same time. I had a little show called Romance Romance. And Anders had a not so little show opening at the same time called Chess. So we were pretty busy, but we said we want the pig. So we both went outside the door and it may have been Jeremy or somebody else who brought us the pig.

And so we're standing there on, I think it's 51st or whatever the theater is. And we got to get it somewhere. And so we hail a taxi standing with a six-foot pig under our arms. And Anders helped me, helps me get it in. And I take the pig up to where I was living at the time on West 93rd Street in Manhattan. And I've kept the pig ever since. We used to put it outside on Halloween and dress it up. He's in rough shape. One of his ears has come off from taking him outside and, you know.

[39:07] Holly Morgan: Does the pig have a name?

[39:10] Michael Starobin: No, we've never named it. It's just the Carrie Pig.

[39:16] Chris Adams: We could name it.

[39:17] Holly Morgan: Could name it, I guess. Dear listeners, I'm proud to announce that we have a photo of the pig. We will post it on our socials and pass any excellent name suggestions back to Michael. What an adventure. Did he eat the pig?

[39:30] Michael Starobin: He sold a pig that they didn't even know existed.

[39:33] Chris Adams: That's fucking great.

[39:35] Holly Morgan: Isn't it? I can't take this anymore. What's next on this roller coaster?

[39:40] Chris Adams: Okay, so one of our American listeners got in touch because he was genuinely intrigued by something from way back in episode two. The gorgeous Shelley Hodgson, one of the ensemble members from the original cast, was telling us about some of the wild nights the cast had in the early days of rehearsals in Stratford-upon-Avon.

[39:57] Shelley Hodgson: Because we all just found just a common thread. And when we went to Stratford, I remember just going out to that dodgy disco below the hotel. Do you guys remember that, Michelle and Eric? We went down to this dodgy disco below the hotel. And we just go in and throw shapes. I mean, it was Gene Anthony, right? It was Leroy from Fame. I mean, hello, people. They were just sat there with their warm pints looking at us. And we're throwing these shapes. I love this story.

[40:23] Chris Adams: So, throwing shapes. Now, apparently, this might be quite a uniquely British expression.

[40:29] Holly Morgan: You've heard this before.

[40:30] Chris Adams: Yeah, yeah. It's like dancing while just going for it on the dance floor. Like this.

[40:33] Holly Morgan: Yeah, I'm not sure that works in audio format. But we got back in touch with Shelley anyway. And we asked her to elaborate.

[40:42] Shelley Hodgson: One of my favourite fun memories of Carrie was in the early days in Stratford. And we would have these impromptu dance sessions where we'd be throwing shapes and creating these mad dance routines. It's difficult to visualise in an audio recording. But I liken it to when musicians have a jam session. They're just playing their instruments. And they establish a beat and a rhythm. And they all just play along and build on that rhythm. And it's something you just feel. And when we first got to Stratford, we were all put in the same hotel. And there was a bar with a dance floor. And after rehearsals, we had this time. It's the first time since rehearsals had started. We actually had the time to socialise with each other and hang out with each other and chill out with each other, get to know each other.

And we were in Stratford-upon-Avon. There wasn't a lot of choice. So we'd head to this bar. And the music would come on. And some of us would get on the dance floor and start dancing, freestyle dancing. And it was definitely Gene Anthony Ray that instigated it. And he would suddenly shout out, 5, 6, 7, 8, freeze! Or pose. Or strut. Or click your fingers. And it kind of gave shape to this kind of routine. So we'd be dancing away. We'd wait for this 5, 6, 7, 8. And react to whatever it was he had instructed. And I have to say that it wasn't always... You know, we started off small and then we got a bit bigger and got a little bit more adventurous. But it was how we started to then work in sync with each other and intuitively, you know, work together.

Completely ad-libbing, all improvising. We didn't know what he was going to say or when he was going to say it. Which kind of gave it that kind of sort of dangerous feel. You know, you didn't want to be the one that got it wrong. But invariably, we just felt it. We just picked up this beat. We kind of waited for this instruction. And these routines just kind of established themselves. And we got other members of the cast to come down and join in. We even got Debbie Allen to come down and join in a couple of times. And she would shout out some of the instructions. I can remember it blew my mind slightly because I had never done anything like this before. Or have I done anything like it since?

It was unique to that period of time and probably the energy and the vibe of all of us at that period of time. But it was just amazing how these routines and this mad kind of dance sessions just established themselves in this funny little bar in the Moat House Hotel in Stratford. It was just so much fun.

[44:00] Chris Adams: Such a laugh, yeah a really fun memory of our time in Stratford. Amazing! That story just really brings to life this group of people, thrown into this rollercoaster of an experience. Hey Holly, do you know what Shelley calls her?

[44:12] Holly Morgan: I just call her stupid bitch.

[44:19] Chris Adams: That's enough! We'll be back after this short break.

[44:23] Chris Adams: Now over the last few weeks we've had an outpouring of tweets and posts from Carrie fans and they've told us all sorts of amazing stories about how Carrie has played a big part in their lives. To start with we had a great chat with Mike Borowski who now splits his time between being a Broadway press agent and a DJ.

[44:36] Mike Borowski: Same! I have been a super fan of Carrie since right after the opening. I just missed it. I wasn't old enough to be in the city seeing shows but once I started going during freshman year of college I travelled into the city and I became instantly involved with a group of friends who were obsessed with bootlegs and trading videos and of course Carrie was the holy grail and I just kind of, the first time I heard it, it just opened doors I did not imagine were possible.

[45:00] Chris Adams: Mike painted a really vivid picture of the passion shared by the early network of Carrie bootleg traders.

[45:17] Mike Borowski: It's like there were certain people that were almost like totems around the city so like there was a record store called Footlight Records which was kind of like your dress circle and they had every cast album like current CDs but also past vinyl and one of the clerks there he was this guy you would secretly go to and talk to and he would trade he would swap you know if you were taping things you want to like get something new he couldn't get to that he'd trade something that he had from the past. There was the doorman at the Martin Beck Theatre, he was another guy that was into trading so you got to know who the people were and it became this really interesting underground community.

[46:00] Chris Adams: When Mike saw the title of our seventh episode, Are You a Friend of Carrie?, he gasped.

[46:05] Mike Borowski: As a reminder, soon after Carrie abruptly closed on Broadway, small mysterious adverts started to appear in the back of Theatre Week magazine with the bold headline Are You a Friend of Carrie? with a postal address printed underneath. We've adapted it as the catch-all term for fans of the show and our theory was that it was a Carrie bootleg trading fan club. Turns out we were wrong.

[46:30] Chris Adams: So I know who placed the ad for the Are You a Friend of Carrie?

[46:39] Mike Borowski: It was an employee at Theatre Week magazine which at the time was the source of information about Broadway shows and upcoming Broadway shows and all kinds of rumors about casting and what shows were opening, who was leaving, what was bombing out of town. If you're a Carrie fan you knew this magazine. He was a fellow employee at Theatre Week. I was the summer intern there for the summer of '91 and he was also obsessed with Carrie. So you know we'd get together, we'd play different versions, oh do you have the second preview? No, I've got the fifth performance. So that kind of stuff.

[47:12] Chris Adams: Mike and his Carrie obsessed colleague were disappointed by the lack of merchandise and memorabilia from the show.

[47:17] Mike Borowski: Now a particular trend on Broadway at the time was show jackets given out to the cast and crew when a new musical opened. They were branded with Broadway logos and were extremely desirable for fans. At the time show jackets were, I mean they were the coolest thing in New York City. I mean if you're walking down the street and you saw like a dancer walking by in her Chorus Line jacket or you know some amazing looking singer in his Denim of the Opera denim, I mean it was it was like seeing it was like seeing a Hollywood star. Like if you're a Broadway fan you're like oh my god that person is so cool they're in the you know they're in the chorus of Cats.

[47:53] Mike Borowski: And so he contacted the you know the company that that did most of the cast jackets he wanted to look real we're gonna have like some like you know shaggy thing it was like he wants to look tip-top gorgeous because they're so expensive and we knew some people but we thought there must be more people even crazier than us that might pay a lot of money just to help the costs go down and so we thought if I place this ad in the place where every Carrie eye is going to see it people might you know respond and then we can fill them in on what it was.

[48:20] Chris Adams: Such dedication they thought that keeping the advert mysteriously vague would also filter out any prying legal eyes likely to shut down their project and of course there was a nod in the headline to the famous friend of Dorothy euphemism.

[48:43] Mike Borowski: I may shock you here Holly the Carrie legacy had largely been kept alive by gay men you see.

[48:49] Holly Morgan: Gasp! No I know take a sip of water calm down.

[48:56] Mike Borowski: No this isn't water.

[48:59] Chris Adams: Oh okay. How much were these jackets and can I still order one?

[49:04] Mike Borowski: Well dear listeners please don't write to the address on the ad because we imagine the current occupier has no interest in supplying you with Carrie the Musical branded apparel. The jackets weren't cheap Mike reckons they were about $250 each.

[49:09] Chris Adams: That's a lot for an intern.

[49:15] Mike Borowski: But worth it. I'll show you right now. I know you saw it but here it is she really is here.

[49:20] Chris Adams: He's kept it all these years it's glorious we shall post the photo on social.

[49:24] Mike Borowski: And I know that it looks like I tried to get this part straight but because it billows it's really hard just because it looks like in the pictures like it's kind of janky it's not it is it is gorgeous.

[49:31] Chris Adams: Their stylish jackets caused quite a stir on the streets of New York City.

[49:37] Mike Borowski: Oh hell yeah because you know to some you know this this theater nerd to me it was like status and you knew like no one had them not even the people in the show so you know you'd walk down the street and somebody like oh my wait can I swear can I swear oh my fucking god is that someone from Carrie so we get stopped all the time and um so it was just it was just kind of fun and fucking around and just being you know when you're young and you think you're kind of superior I don't know I mean it's so ridiculous even to me now to think like we actually did that I mean how insane but it was fun it was fun.

[50:17] Chris Adams: I love the fact that somewhere out there there are more friends of Carrie with these heavily branded Carrie leather jackets tucked away in the loft.

[50:22] Mike Borowski: I also have another Carrie connection as a student journalist and Carrie obsessive I wrote to Terry Hans asking for an interview during a trip to the UK.

[50:27] Chris Adams: I got like an immediate yes and which shocked me I was really surprised I kind of just wanted to let him talk first and just see what he'd reveal as opposed to my kind of asking questions that thought might lead the conversation and it's before I ever heard this this I still call it a rumor this Greece Greece thing he specifically brought up he said you know what what people don't understand is that Carrie is the ultimate tragedy and the Greek tragedies were the ultimate tragedies so I wanted to specifically be able to call out you know the Greek tragedies and that was that was what he claimed was the way he was doing it.

[51:06] Chris Adams: I think we'll never have a final explanation on Greece versus Greece.

[51:11] Mike Borowski: It's interesting that Terry was willing to talk so openly about what must have been quite a humiliating experience.

[51:15] Chris Adams: I was talking with such kind of seriousness and gravitas that he really he was just he I think he enjoyed talking about it because he had so much shit for it and people were just like had been so cruel and the reviews were terrible and had been forgotten.

[51:31] Mike Borowski: Terry actually gave me a Carrie baseball cap which all the cast and crew had been given as an opening night gift.

[51:37] Chris Adams: He must have been in Carrie heaven.

[51:41] Mike Borowski: Terry also signed my copy of Stephen King's novel with the musical branded cover which sparked a personal mission for this most dedicated of fans.

[51:46] Chris Adams: And so I would try to get every person involved with Carrie to sign it. You know I go to Robin's Broadway, have Charlotte sign it, have Scott Wise sign it, I have Marianne Lamb sign it and so he signed he signed my book and he wrote something very generous and it was just it's it's I mean I went to go see Betty Buckley in the you know pre-Broadway Trout of Stardust and I asked her I said will you sign this the sin of her dies and she said no love Betty Buckley.

[52:19] Mike Borowski: One last anecdote from me. Remember early in the series we heard from the cast that many of the costumes from the Broadway show were actually shredded after the last performance because of union rules? Well it seems like some of them slipped under the radar.

[52:27] Chris Adams: One year Mike and his college friends were browsing the Broadway flea market an annual sale at which shows sell off old merchandise, playbills, costumes and props for charity.

[52:38] Mike Borowski: And looking through them like what are these like some of them were just so crazy like what the hell is this and woman running the booth is like oh those are the tights from Carrie from you know from the the kids high school number and I'm like I'm looking and it's like pink bodysuit tights rhinestones hand sewn into like you know little crazy patterns and I'm like okay I have to have one of these stupid things obviously and so um and so I bought I bought one I bought one of their girls body tights and you're gonna ask did I wear it I could not fit into it it was too tiny.

[53:19] Chris Adams: I mean he found a unitard!

[53:22] Mike Borowski: They exist in the wild he has it in storage and there may be others.

[53:25] Chris Adams: Come through to us unitard collectors get in touch.

[53:30] Mike Borowski: Actually I have further evidence of costumes escaping the shredders.

[53:37] Chris Adams: Tell me now.

[53:39] Mike Borowski: Our lovely listener Sunil Ayagari got in touch on Instagram with this story.

[53:43] Sunil Ayagari: I discovered Carrie when I was in high school. I was a big fan of Lindsay Haightley's Joseph CD and I had to hear everything she'd ever done. I thought her voice was the greatest thing I'd ever heard so I kind of got into this online world of Betty Buckley fandom through AOL where I was able to get my hands on a lot of Carrie material and within a year of that uh right when I was 17 Broadway Cares announced that for their big auction in September the big lot was going to be Betty Buckley's sweater that she was donating and I just knew I had to have it so I went down to the bank and I took out all of my like Christmas money and savings for years and I went to the auction.

[54:17] Sunil Ayagari: I put my hand up when that lot came up and one person was bidding against me and they just kept their hand up too but I knew I had to have this and it kept going up and going up and going up and a little beyond my budget and I knew I had to stop but I also knew I had to have it so I held out. I ended up winning and the lot was Betty Buckley's sweater a letter from her verifying that it was from her collection and that it was from the show. A front of theater kind of house board with the logo that's like huge and I love it and a photo of Lindsay and Betty doing Eve Was Weak in black and white and I have no regrets. It was for a good cause. I'm so glad that I have this really unique piece of history and I've never put it on and performed Eve Was Weak when I was alone in my room but that's mostly just because I didn't want to stretch out this really important piece.

[55:31] Holly Morgan: Oh my god. Incredible. I don't think I could resist wearing that most nights and giving my Margaret away.

[55:37] Chris Adams: A sight to behold I'm sure. Thanks Mike and Sunil too. Between Lindsay's shoes, Mike's unitard and Sunil's sweater we're edging ever closer to recreating the original production. Or at least a fairly small niche museum.

[55:46] Holly Morgan: Who else have we found? I feel like we should have some sort of Carrie postbag jingle. Tom can we have that please?

[55:50] Chris Adams: I guess we'll find out when he edits this.

[55:56] Holly Morgan: So the first time around we really struggled to find anyone who had seen the show in its first incarnation in Stratford. We did hear from the lovely actor Paul Clayton who sent us this incredible memory of seeing the show.

[56:02] Paul Clayton: So sit back, grab a glass of wine and listen to my dulcet tones take you back to Stratford-upon-Avon, February 1988. I'd just been doing a film with a lovely actor called Warren Sayre and so we went one Saturday afternoon, thrilled to get some matinee tickets, and drove up from London. Centre stalls, big high-tech steel mirrored set, very Terry Hans and Ralph Coltie. And suddenly the band thrashed into action and we thought this is it, this is going to be high drama and grand guisional horror throughout the afternoon.

[56:34] Paul Clayton: I think the first warning sign came with the first lyric which were lots of girls in white rah-rah skirts dancing round a gymnasium and singing it's Saturday night and I'm worried about my split ends. But we overlooked that. We overlooked the fact when the glass shower block in the gymnasium spun round and carries shower cubicle occupied by the very talented but on this case unfortunate Lindsay Hately, glowed red from inside and all the other girls threw open their shower doors coyly wrapped in white towels to sing She's Having a Period.

[57:24] Paul Clayton: By the time we got to the interval we'd really realised that this wasn't going to be on the top 10 of musical hits of the 20th century and we stood on the balcony a little uncertain as to what to say to each other and we shared a cigarette. We made our way back in to sit in our stall seats and as we sat down the people behind us sat down and really summed up our whole afternoon. A lovely Yorkshire voice and I'm a Yorkshireman so I appreciate it, was suddenly heard to say hey I don't know two and a half hours on the coach and then this.

[58:07] Chris Adams: That comment's always stuck in my mind. In fact the good thing was I was able to write into the Evening Standard who had a column called Over and that lovely person's comment won me a magnum of champagne. Incredible scenes thanks to that lady from Yorkshire.

[58:40] Keith Butler: He knew he had to head to Stratford for opening night. And they had a pile of newspapers. And watching their faces, reading those reviews, which was obviously what they were doing, as we were doing as well, was priceless. A great memory to have. Now that must have been an awkward breakfast. We recently heard from Keith Butler, who was a regular audience member at the RSC. He was very kind. I did want to thank both of you because you're absolute legends for doing this. I mean, I mean, you know, seriously, I mean, it's like, you know, I mean, the whole issue of Carrie has been a sort of gap in my life. So I think it's, I think it's been a gap in most people's lives, or a lot of people's lives, you know, and, and it's, you are filling in the missing pieces. For me, honestly, I mean, I'm not, I'm genuine there, you're filling in a lot of missing, I'm thinking, this is, this is what I wanted to know 30 years ago.

[1:00:06] Keith Butler: He saw the show not once, but twice. Over the years, he had become a fan of Terry Hand's innovative productions of Shakespeare, and was keen to see what he'd make of a big new musical. Like many theatre lovers in the local area, Keith dismissed the snooty reaction of the press and contributed to the show's sellout run in Stratford. The critics sort of thought it was the RSC dumbing down, I guess. And, and they sort of went into it with the, you know, wanting to dislike it. And it was the public that said, up yours. And, and, you know, there we go. And it come on. So it was, I was familiar with Stephen King's book. But of course, it was, you know, I was seeing everything. And so when they, they did Carrie, you know, it was a no brainer. I was going to see, I was going to see that it was Terry Hand's, it was going to be a big musical.

[1:01:02] Keith Butler: My first wife, who I was married to at that time, was well into Kids from Fame. And I hated it. It wasn't really, it wasn't really my thing at all, you know. But actually, she took me to the bloody concert to her as well, you know. And I had to, some of my mates don't ever forget that I actually went to see Kids from Fame in one of these arenas, you know. But it was all right, you know, but I was never really into it. But this whole idea of, you know, sort of this conglomeration between sort of Debbie Allen and Terry Hands was, was sort of fascinating from the start. I think it's really interesting, actually, to get a Brits perspective on this kind of mega musical opening up in this relatively small town here in England.

This was really a big deal at the time, we kind of forget how massive fame was. So to have this combination of the RSC, fame, Stephen King, it all sounds a bit weird to us now looking back. But I think people were really excited and curious to see what this was going to be like.

[1:01:58] Keith Butler: Yeah. As a fan of Terry Hands' work, we asked his thoughts on the suggestion that Terry had simply lost control of the look and feel of the show. I listened to some of your podcasts and listened to some of the interviews about Terry. And given what I saw from his Shakespearean productions, it's hard to believe that he just, you know, let it, let the rest of it go, or sort of, you know, couldn't be bothered to stand up to Debbie Allen or, you know, all that. To me, that doesn't make a lot of sense because he was, he was the artistic director of the RSC at that time. He was the big man at that time. It's difficult to believe that he would have, you know, put the production at risk in those terms. Even if he thought he was going to be a flop or whatever, you know, I don't think he would have done that.

[1:02:46] Keith Butler: A lot of it was ahead of its time, and I just think that the production itself was a bit ahead of its time, I think. You know, it would have been very simple to just do it as a straightforward adaptation of the book with a gymnasium or just in high school clothes and the rest of it, and without any sort of deep issues around abuse or bullying or whatever, you know, Terry wanted to get across.

[1:03:14] Bob Sambiante: Ah, Kerry. Never been a musical liker. As a young director and stage manager, I remember learning, you can always learn something from any show that you see, good or bad. And man, did I learn a lot from Kerry. Right from the beginning, I just knew something was terribly wrong. These gorgeously sung and acted classic scenes between mother and daughter just interspersed with this teen pop schlock stuff that just, they never gelled. The two shows never met. Of course, the audience reaction on Broadway has gone down in history. The mixed reactions of the crowd at the end, people couldn't figure it out. I haven't seen anything like that. There was a moment in Passion by Stephen Sondheim early on in previews where Donna Murphy's Fosca was chasing Giorgio, following him everywhere.

And he gets on a train at the last minute. She slips through the doors and comes on the same train where he is. And they hadn't set it up right. And the audience just burst out laughing. And I just cringed, thinking, oh, that is not what they want. That is not what the what the what the writers want. And there were so many moments of that in Kerry.

[1:04:32] Bob Sambiante: I love this extra story that Bob shared with us, too. My favorite part was that I almost didn't see it. I was seeing a man at the time and we were seeing every musical together that season. We had tickets to see it. And what would have been the week after it closed. But the week before it closed, I was in town and said, I'm going to go see a matinee. And he said, whatever you do, don't see Kerry without me. I'll be pissed. So, of course, I went and saw Kerry and I would have missed it completely. And I went on a date with a guy who was in the original company a little bit later, a few years later. And there wasn't a second date because I think he was a little thrown back by it. Can we just keep talking about Kerry now?

What happened? What happened here? What happened? And how did this happen? And can I have your copy of the score? So that was not a dating win, but so much drama in so many different ways. And that show stays with me forever. And I'm so grateful for the Alfred Blood podcast finally telling the whole story. Thank you.

[1:05:36] Chris Adams: Thanks, Bob. It's been a pleasure. Who else have we heard from? Well, Con O'Neill tweeted at us. Con O'Action O'Neill, genuine legend of stage and screen. The voice, the rugged good looks. He told us that he went to an open audition for Kerry and never got in. He's done all right from not being in Kerry, hasn't he? I guess he's probably not too bothered. Dashing West End leading man and brand new Kerry fan David Hunter sent us this message.

[1:06:02] David Hunter: Hello, hello. David Hunter here. Kerry newbie and Alfred Blood super fan. I love this podcast. I can't remember why I how I discovered it. I must have just seen a tweet, but I'm glad I did. I've pored over every second twice and since discovered all the Kerry stuff online because I'd never seen a single clip of the show. And so I've gone down a rabbit hole and I've gone deep, my friends. And it's all thanks to you. But I've loved it. It's been incredible discovering this mad show. And, you know, it serves as a brilliant reminder as well of, because obviously I'm missing kind of being a part of a cast and stuff during this lockdown. And it's reminding me that, you know, whatever you do with a show, whether it's really well received or not well received, or if it's a mega flop as Kerry was, that the joy in it all is working with those people and making something together to listen to those cast talking from the 80s production and the relationship between them and the stories they've got to tell and the joy in their voice talking about making this thing, which ended up being a flop.

But the fact of the matter is, I think you throw on these shows, you put something on, it's well received. It's not well received. It wins awards. It doesn't. It's a mega flop, whatever it is. And a group of people, however big or small, take it away with them who've loved it and hold it in their hearts and it becomes a part of their lives. And the cast and the crew and everyone who works on it, the writers, the creative team, you can tell, listen to them. They're so passionate about it. And I know that feeling. And I think it reminded me that actually the joy in making theatre is the getting to put it on, is the license to make it and enjoy it and build up those stories and meet these people and share this experience.

And then you just put it out in the world and see what it becomes. And really, there's no disaster in Carrie being a flop because look at the joy it's brought us. Look at the joy it's brought me 40 years on, ish, as a man who's never seen it before. And it's just been thrust into my life. And I've just loved it. So this is my sincere love letter to Out For Blood podcast and to Carrie the musical. Thanks for reminding me what a joy it is to do, even when it goes horribly, horribly wrong.

[1:08:15] Chris Adams: Oh, David, thank you. He's right. Carrie does seem to be bringing joy wherever it goes. Whoever thought a show that closed after a couple of weeks in 1988 could still be doing that? Thank you for your lovely words. Oh, the very talented theatre designer Christopher Oram also said he had become obsessed with the show. Really? Can we expect a slew of set designs with Carrie references in the near future? I've heard that all new musicals will legally be obliged to end with a huge descending staircase. Oh, and we got this lovely message from the director and choreographer Lee Proud.

[1:09:50] Lee Proud: I was about when I was about 11 or 12. My brother bought the book of Carrie and my mum tried to bribe me to not read it because I kept stealing it from my brother and I wanted to read it all the time. Then I saw and I just loved it. My mum tried to bribe me, but I sneaked it into my room and I read it and I loved it. And then I saw the film when I was about 13 or 14 on a VHS copy and I just could not believe what I saw. I just loved it. So I'm a massive fan of the film, huge fan of the book. Cut to 1988, 87, 88, and I was at Italia Conti and I was actually at school with Lindsay Hateley when she was plucked from her training to go and play the role of Carrie. At the same time, I was cast in Starlight Express in the West End.

So we were both kind of the success stories of our school at the time, a little bit, the two of us. And Lindsay and I were very good friends and still are. And I remember Carrie happening, Lindsay going off to do that. Everyone was talking about it and I was in Starlight Express. And then I went to Japan to do Starlight Express and Lindsay and I would talk on the phone. I was in Tokyo and Lindsay was in New York and she was telling me how much fun she was having, how brilliant it all was. And we were both having a great time, the time of our lives. And then Lindsay got me, sent me a cassette copy of the show. I think it was done on the sound desk and I became obsessed with that soundtrack. I just absolutely loved it.

The soundtrack was constantly in my walk, my Sony Walkman, which I had at the time, and I was terrified of flying. So I used to play Carrie when on takeoff and landing, the big bit at the end of the title number, when she sings, Carrie, I'm in the sound of distant thunder. It's really great to listen to on takeoff and landing on an aeroplane. So I used to listen to it all the time on that. And then obviously, I saw the Southwark Playhouse version a few years later, but I really, really wanted to see the original. And I still love it to this day. And I've just really enjoyed this podcast. So thank you so much.

[1:10:55] Chris Adams: How lovely. And a great tip for your next turbulent flight. So if you had to pick one, which was your very favourite interview from all of the almost 70 people we spoke to? I mean, there are so many to choose from. It takes a lot to beat the brilliant Lindsay Hately and that amazing evening we spent with some of the British cast last year. It feels like so long ago. We heard from Lindsay recently, actually, after we talked about that famous shot of her on the front of the Not Since Carrie book, covered in blood and laughing at the same time.

[1:11:24] Chris Adams: Yeah, she told us that the shoot took place at the theatre. They had planned to use a photo of her in the blood-soaked prom dress on the front of house posters, but went down a different route. Somebody said something to make her laugh. And it was that shot that ended up immortalised forever on Ken Mandelbaum's book cover. Amazing. She also shared some wonderful photos from her personal Carrie collection, which we posted on our social channels, including her original script with her name written on it in like 17-year-old highlighter ban. And even the shoes she wore on stage as Carrie. Those shoes should be in a glass case next to Dorothy's in the Smithsonian. The British cast also told us that our mini reunion sparked a larger one, with more cast members from around the world reuniting on Zoom.

Some of them hadn't seen each other since the closing night back in May 1988. How amazing is that? It makes me feel all warm inside. Dean Pitchford was also great to interview, just so kind and generous with his time. And he talked us all the way through the history of the show from beginning to end. I don't think we could have really started this without his help.

[1:12:22] Holly Morgan: No, definitely. I've never Zoomed with an Oscar winner before. Oh, have you not? Me and Meryl are on all the time. We do quizzes, chats. She loves those backgrounds you can have. She came on as a potato. Yeah, she turned into a kitten last week. I loved speaking to Joe Iconis. That was a lot of fun.

[1:12:36] Chris Adams: That was great. If you remember, Joe, the creator of Be More Chill, was a teenage Carrie fan. Now he was in deep. He told us this kind of escalating tale of searching for and acquiring a Carrie bootleg only to be called by Betty Buckley's actual lawyer after posting his details online. And now, of course, he works with Betty and is her friend. There's still part of me that's like, I don't want Miss Buckley to be angry at me for trading this videotape, even though Nash would be so cool with it. Like, she's super down with bootlegs these days. But yeah, it was so terrifying. So we have this unused footage. So let's just listen to Joe talk a bit more about Carrie and how it changed his life, shall we?

[1:13:20] Chris Adams: Original Trashy Pulpy Carrie. That is where my heart lies. I think Carrie has inspired my own work in the way that you know I was sort of talking about before in that it's the so much of that so much of the show is so heartfelt and so passionate and so unafraid to where it's you know big bloody heart on its sleeve and it's so unafraid to just say what it means and and it's it's it's not trying to be cool it's not trying to show you how smart it is uh and it's it's just kind of there you know and and I I love that I love that that transparency and I love that when the show needs to take on a tone that is that is super serious and and and you know grave it can and when the show needs to take on the you know the lightness and the cheesiness of being a teenager uh in a way that feels really you know fun and and and flip and all that it can do that too uh and those sort of like those sort of um uh extremes living in the same piece of art is something that I think just got baked into me from a very very young age and the other thing that that got sort of baked into me was this idea of using genre in musical theater and and having the bravery to you know tell a story that has these fantastical elements and has situations that are kind of you know ridiculous or or you know situations that are are not what you would consider normal musical theater fodder um but still you know tell a story that feels human and authentic and and uh truthful and you know and there's also this is such a huge thing but I am so inspired by pieces of art that are regarded as um or pieces of art and art forms that are often regarded as like trashy you know like the like things that you know things that seem cheap or things that people sort of stick their nose up at uh and Carrie the the original talking about the you know the original Stratford slash Broadway version of Carrie not the not the reworking uh that that shows trashy and and to me in a way that's like the in the best way like in a way that you know the films of Brian de Palma are trashy while still having you know so much in them uh and the embracing that that kind of trashiness that pulpiness is something that I do all the time in my work.

[1:16:10] Chris Adams: Joe did us a favor. Thank you. Joe read out an incredible letter that was passed to us by one of the cast members in the middle of the series that had been mailed to the Virginia Theater during previews. It was gasp inducing. I couldn't believe how angry that person was. You can listen to the whole thing at the start of episode four but my particular favorite moment was I have never been more offended by any production I have ever seen and I apologize for being rude but you owe me an apology as well.

[1:16:41] Chris Adams: I mean if you are the author of that letter please do get in touch and we'll be happy to dedicate an entire bonus hour to your further thoughts on the matter. Thank you Karen. I'm going to use that line every time I'm dissatisfied from now on in a restaurant. This food was awful. I apologize for being rude but you owe me an apology as well. I'm going to get Joe to record a standard complaint clip. I could just tweet at brands and politicians. Oh anyway. Oh yeah I loved talking to Alice Ripley, personal Broadway hero. You know Next to Normal was the first show I saw on Broadway and I went twice in two days.

[1:17:16] Holly Morgan: Oh she is a legend. I realized after talking to her for this that I had obviously stalked the Next to Normal stage door because I got her to sign my Next to Normal playbill.

[1:17:25] Chris Adams: You're making a bit of a habit of this aren't you?

[1:17:29] Holly Morgan: I think it's the only time I've stage doored in my life.

[1:17:29] Chris Adams: That's not true we did it for Liza.

[1:17:36] Holly Morgan: Oh my god we did but she jumped in a car and she didn't want to hang out with us for some reason. I can't think why and we did it at the Gary Revival.

[1:17:42] Chris Adams: I think we apologize to Larry Cohen for Britain's contribution to the downfall of his musical.

[1:17:47] Holly Morgan: Okay okay so this was one of many examples in my life. I've harassed somewhat thank you. I now look like a crazy weirdo. Alice is the kind of performer who really gets inside the head of her characters. It's kind of you kind of have to feel sorry for her for Margaret because you know everything that I'm doing is Margaret I'm screwing everything up and in the end I don't have to do any of it but I think I'm doing it for the good of everybody now.

[1:18:12] Chris Adams: I heard about the show I knew about what it was about and how it was received and I had heard some of the music but it had this it was legendary as being something that nobody could get they couldn't get you couldn't hear the music you couldn't find the it was unfindable um but there was it was led it would be stories about it you know.

[1:18:36] Holly Morgan: We went on a bit of a sidebar about some of her other roles which we couldn't really squeeze into the episodes but I think some of our listeners would love to hear uh first from American Psycho Mrs. Bateman.

[1:18:46] Alice Ripley: I love Mrs. Bateman she's I wish I had had more time you know she's she's only she's a small I played a bunch of characters and then she she's just in a few scenes but I would love to like explore that character in a series or something um I think that the common thread is maybe manipulation and control um it's funny because uh that's the thing that I even with the character I played last fall Norma Desmond um when I describe myself and then the characters I play a character like Norma one of the only things that we have that's different about us because we're very I'm more like her probably than any character I've ever played.

[1:19:22] Chris Adams: Norma Desmond except she's manipulative and she lies and I don't do either of those but I could do it through her.

[1:19:29] Alice Ripley: And what about her award-winning portrayal of Next to Normals Diana?

[1:19:33] Chris Adams: Well Diana enjoys she enjoys too much how everybody is doting on her and trying to you know like um they're all worried about her and Diana enjoys that too much and that that is part of her down that's part of what breaks her but the break is you know like the kind of person who subconsciously maybe um likes the attention even though they're sick um uh and the but the break is caused from Diana allowing too much control like allowing herself to control the other people too much in a negative way but then the break is is necessary for Diana because that's where her healing begins.

[1:20:21] Alice Ripley: So these characters you know Diana is not Diana does tell lies and she does manipulate but you know she's on a completely different like I don't have anything in common with that woman except that I'm a woman everything else about us is different which I think is really interesting but that the control the subconscious control and manipulation runs through all of these characters and I wonder if it's because I don't really do that and I don't really if I ever did it I don't do it anymore because I'm over 50. I don't have time for that baloney play games and stuff and I get to do it through these characters.

[1:21:05] Chris Adams: Of course we encouraged Alice to get over to London where she's never performed. She could stay on my sofa.

[1:21:11] Alice Ripley: I'm sure she'd be delighted. It's exciting to know that this is something that I still have yet to do.

[1:21:16] Chris Adams: Yeah. I can't wait I know someday I'll go there and I'll do I'll play a role and um I can't I don't think I'll ever come back actually because I have been in England I just haven't been to London and I love the people there I love them.

[1:21:30] Holly Morgan: You must come and see you must come and see us.

[1:21:35] Chris Adams: Yes we'd love to. It's tempting to I want to steal your sound I want to practice and I should have done the whole interview this way.

[1:21:41] Holly Morgan: So much fun. Another great interview for me was Stafford Arima the director of The Revisal.

[1:21:47] Chris Adams: He was just so nice and had so much great insight into this show and the story and the characters although I did keep screwing up the time zones for him. Sorry Stafford. If I live to be 100 I will never understand time zones.

[1:22:04] Stafford Arima: No no it's not your fault. I think it's it I think part of it is just the trying to figure out the time zones and if I say nine does that mean 11 your time or is that nine your time anyway? It's all okay. I just about mastered eastern and pacific but all of a sudden Stafford was in something called mountain time.

[1:22:13] Chris Adams: Mountain time? What even is that? I don't know. Anyway apologies Stafford and the good citizens of mountain time for basically inventing a fictional time for his interview but we got there in the end. The great thing about Stafford is that he just loves this show and really changed the course of it and the way people think about it.

[1:22:22] Stafford Arima: I feel very honored and very blessed to be a part of the journey of Carrie. If I didn't send that email in August of 2008 to my agent about doing a concert and the fact that my agent kind of said I don't think that's going to happen but I didn't stop. I didn't stop pursuing the idea so that tenacious drive I think is an important ingredient for any young artist and I also think for when I think of Michael and Larry and Dean that they continue to believe in a show that they wrote. They gave birth to a show that was incredibly well intentioned and through a beautiful force of creative nuances and differences it became what it became but a second life came in 2012 and perhaps another one will come again one never knows but the CD is available so it lives on and wonderful podcasts like yours give audiences a chance to understand the breadth of Carrie and the complexities of producing, directing, performance, audience reaction in a in a really kind of cohesive way so thank you.

[1:24:09] Chris Adams: No thank you. Of course we heard from tons of people who discovered the Carrie story through Stafford's revival and all of the many productions that have come since.

[1:24:13] Sean Pollock: I saw the revival and made an instant decision. And I remember at intermission for the revival I found Stafford Arima at intermission this is a true story by the way and I said to him I'm going to direct the first college production of Carrie the musical which is just such a ballsy thing to say but he was like okay I mean good luck I mean what do you say to that right? But it actually happened.

[1:24:38] Chris Adams: Sean directed the first college production of the new edition of Carrie at Ithaca College in New York.

[1:24:46] Sean Pollock: I have hopes to resurrect the classic original one day.

[1:24:52] Chris Adams: Don't we all. I'm available. I think that the 88 version although it doesn't quite have that ending is darker and is it perfect no but you know what there it's actually it's so bizarre that it works and it's iconic and so I hope if I get a third round to direct Carrie I hope that will be the 88 one I hope that they license it because you know what people love it and it's entertaining and it is really there's no other musical like it right that's what they said in the press ads or whatever.

[1:25:27] Holly Morgan: Anyway thanks for having me on and don't waste the moon. Iconic.

[1:25:36] Chris Adams: Thanks Sean. Anyway I think that's all of our items on the agenda. Guys thank you again we really appreciate all the love. And in this very strange very unnerving time for all of us who love the world of theatre and live entertainment it's been a pleasure to meet and speak with so many people who are passionate about it and can't wait to be back on stage or backstage or watching a stage as soon as safely possible.

[1:25:49] Holly Morgan: We will certainly be there as soon as we're allowed to be. If you see us smuggling in those little mini bottles of wine though please come and say hello. But don't tell the ushers please or we'll get you with our laser fingers.

[1:26:03] Chris Adams: Of course if there are any more major Carrie happenings in the future I'm sure we'll be back to hassle whoever is involved until they give us an interview. There's been lots of chat on Twitter actually from people demanding an exact reconstruction of the 1988 production to be mounted as soon as possible.

[1:26:15] Holly Morgan: Happy to sign that petition. And we've also got some other plans up our sleeves.

[1:26:20] Chris Adams: But I don't have sleeves in this unitard.

[1:26:25] Holly Morgan: Oh you should get a sexy leather jacket like me.

[1:26:29] Chris Adams: Did you wrestle that from the shredder?

[1:26:29] Holly Morgan: I bought it from an ad in the back of this magazine I subscribe to.

[1:26:36] Chris Adams: Anyway yeah don't hit unsubscribe because we hope to bring you some exciting news about Out For Blood pretty soon.

[1:26:42] Holly Morgan: That's right. Plus keep your next Wednesday free because we're dropping just one more teeny tiny bonus episode.

[1:26:47] Chris Adams: Another one.

[1:26:48] Holly Morgan: Another one with lots of lovely comments from Carrie fans all around the world.

[1:26:52] Chris Adams: For now stay safe and keep on spreading the Carrie word. Dream on. Bye.

[1:27:01] Holly Morgan: Out For Blood is a proud member of the Broadway Podcast Network. For more information about us and the podcast please visit us online at bpn.fm slash Out For Blood. If you enjoyed Out For Blood please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you downloaded from and don't forget to subscribe.

[1:27:11] Chris Adams: And come and join us at Out For Blood Podcast on Instagram and Facebook and Out For Blood Pod on Twitter.

[1:27:16] Holly Morgan: Out For Blood was hosted and produced by me Holly Morgan and me Chris Adams. Sound engineering and editing by Tom Moores. Paddy Jervis is our audio consultant. Original music by Odin Ornhill-Marsen and artwork by Rebecca Pitt. Thanks to all our contributors over the last few weeks but in this special bonus episode you heard from Lindsay Haitley, Shelley Hodgson, Kenny Linden, Annie Golden, Todd Graff, Paul Schwartz, Jeremy Sturt, Mike Borowski, Keith Butler, Bob Sembiante, David Hunter, Lee Proud, Joe Iconis, Alice Ripley, Stafford Arima and Sean Pollock.

[1:27:48] Chris Adams: Pass me the crackerjacks I'm exhausted.

[1:27:53] Holly Morgan: I'm still laughing about the penguin joke.