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[0:00] Gordon Cox: Welcome to Stagecraft, Variety's theatre podcast, bringing you backstage and behind the scenes with the stars and creators of the hottest shows on Broadway, Off Broadway and beyond. I'm your host, Gordon Cox.

[0:16] Gordon Cox: On this episode of Stagecraft, I'm talking to the singer-songwriter Anaïs Mitchell and the director Rachel Chavkin, two of the leading creators behind the new musical Hadestown, a folk-rock opera that sets the story of Orpheus and Eurydice in a kind of Depression-era dreamscape of hard times. Hadestown premiered in 2016 at Off-Broadway's New York Theatre Workshop, where early excitement over the show eventually caught fire online and made the cast recording a digital streaming success. That buzz has fueled further development of the show over a run in Edmonton, Alberta, and, most recently, at London's National Theatre, where the musical played in the fall. Soon Broadway audiences will get a chance to see what all the excitement is about when the show starts performances at the Walter Kerr Theatre on March 22nd.

[1:04] Gordon Cox: Hi Anaïs and Rachel.

[1:05] Anaïs Mitchell: Hi.

[1:06] Rachel Chavkin: Hi.

[1:07] Gordon Cox: Thanks for being here.

[1:08] Anaïs Mitchell: Thanks for having us.

[1:09] Gordon Cox: So Anaïs, let's talk a little bit first about how you first conceived Hadestown. You tell a story about it that sounds to me a little bit like divine inspiration. Tell me a little bit about that moment and when that was.

[1:17] Anaïs Mitchell: Oh, that's funny. I think I know what you're talking about.

[1:22] Rachel Chavkin: Yeah.

[1:23] Anaïs Mitchell: Well, oftentimes, you know, I'm a songwriter and oftentimes the impetus for a song isn't like, it's not like I have a grand scheme about what I want to do, just a line will come. And then I'll kind of follow it into the labyrinth. And there's a moment I was driving in my car, I was in my early 20s, and I was thinking about my boyfriend at home and I was driving for miles and these lines...

[1:47] Gordon Cox: Were you touring, like were you touring as a musician at that point?

[1:50] Anaïs Mitchell: Yeah. And early on, just playing coffee houses and like driving ridiculous distances to get to, you know, a tips gig type of thing. So these lines came into my head and they were the melody of what is now the song called Wait For Me. But the lyrics were different and they went, well, they went, Wait for me, I'm coming in my garters and pearls with what melody did you barter me from the wicked underworld?

[2:15] Rachel Chavkin: Whoa.

[2:16] Anaïs Mitchell: Yeah. Did I never tell you that?

[2:17] Rachel Chavkin: I really know those alternate lyrics.

[2:18] Anaïs Mitchell: I'm so glad.

[2:21] Gordon Cox: Wait, why? So all those words came at once in a rush? That's what sounds like divine inspiration to me, is for like, couplets to arrive fully formed, you know?

[2:31] Anaïs Mitchell: Yeah, I don't know. It's not how I roll, like I am a very slow writer and it's certainly like that kind of fully formed thing doesn't seem like the norm for me. But then there are times when that happens and those four lines came all at the same time. And they seem to be just about the Eurydice and Orpheus story because of the underworld. And so I started to think about it and just get really excited about the idea of telling a longer form story.

[2:56] Gordon Cox: Was that the first time you'd sort of had that impulse? Because you're not a musical theater person.

[3:00] Anaïs Mitchell: No.

[3:01] Gordon Cox: I mean, you are now.

[3:02] Anaïs Mitchell: Yeah.

[3:03] Gordon Cox: But you were not at the time.

[3:04] Anaïs Mitchell: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, there's a couple of things. I mean, I do love, I do love music theater. I've always loved Les Mis and Sweeney Todd made a big impression on me early on.

[3:18] Anaïs Mitchell: But I think I was bumping up against this thing where I love songs so much, you know? But even at my favorite songwriter's show, I'd start to get a little like fidgety halfway through because of the thing of just so many tiny climaxes in a row. And at the same time I'd watch a terrible movie all the way to the end because I had to find out what would happen. And just wondering, you know, why is it so powerful, that question of like what's going to happen and what would happen if you put all those songs in service of a longer arc.

[3:54] Gordon Cox: Right. And so when did that first idea happen? That was like 12 years ago or what year was that?

[4:01] Anaïs Mitchell: Yeah, yeah. Maybe even a little longer because it was just the first spark of it.

[4:04] Gordon Cox: Okay.

[4:05] Anaïs Mitchell: 12 or 13 years ago.

[4:06] Gordon Cox: And that was like 2006-ish. Is that the right thing?

[4:08] Anaïs Mitchell: Yeah. And then you think to yourself, I'd like to tell a larger story and it's inspired by Orpheus and Eurydice. And then what does it become at first? Because I know it first existed as sort of a concert that you did with your friends, right? Like was this like a concept album in your head? What was it?

[4:23] Anaïs Mitchell: Yeah. You know, it was always a staged piece in my head. Early on, so I used to live in Vermont for most of my adult life. And when those songs started coming, I enlisted the help of my friends in Vermont, one of whom is still with us. Michael Chorney is one of our orchestrators. And he, from the very get-go, was arranging my songs for this band of his in Vermont. There was an early director named Ben Matchstick who came from the bread and puppet world.

[4:56] Rachel Chavkin: Oh, yeah. Which is up there, yeah.

[4:58] Anaïs Mitchell: It's way up there, totally. And then all the actors and musicians were friends of ours in Vermont. And so we put on the show up there two times in a row, two years in a row, in a sort of much more abstract version of what we're doing now.

[5:16] Gordon Cox: When did the impulse occur to you to delve further into sort of staging it and making it more of a musical kind of theater piece?

[5:25] Anaïs Mitchell: Right. So after that initial kind of stage thing, I went into the mode of working on the album, which took a few years. And then we ended up touring that music as a concert for a couple years. So it really took a break from the stage. But I'd always wanted to get it back into the theater in some way. And it just took a while to find the partners for that. And I'm sitting next to you, the kind of keystone of that next phase of stage work.

[5:56] Rachel Chavkin: Yeah. And how did you two connect, Rachel? Talk about how you first came.

[6:00] Rachel Chavkin: We met in 2012, initially, actually. Anaïs came to see Comet when we were at Ars Nova. I think maybe, like, you had begun working with Dale Franzen.

[6:10] Anaïs Mitchell: So that would have been the very earliest production of Natasha Beyond the Grave.

[6:14] Rachel Chavkin: That was the very first incarnation.

[6:15] Rachel Chavkin: That was at Ars Nova, in the basement for folks who didn't see it. There were seven crushed seats and lots of vodka. And Anaïs, you'd begun working with one of our producers at that point, and were, like, seeking out musical theater, so far as I understand it, and people working on it. And a mutual friend, actually a really great drummer, connected us. And we sort of began dating, basically, over the course of the year. And I think we, like, officially began working together in 2013, when I was in London, and we had, like, a five-hour Skype session. And just began talking through the concept album, and sort of what was already there, and what was happening, and where there were gaps in songs. And it was, like, our first dramaturgical meeting, of which we've now had a lot.

[7:03] Anaïs Mitchell: Yeah.

[7:04] Rachel Chavkin: Yeah.

[7:05] Gordon Cox: And what was already there? Like, what did you respond to, in it, that made it?

[7:08] Rachel Chavkin: Oh, I mean, well, first and foremost, the music is just, like, heartbreaking. It's so rich. It's so... The orchestrations that Michael Tornian and Todd Sycafuse, who produced the album, created, and Anaïs's melodies...

[7:23] Anaïs Mitchell: So we should say, this was, in its first incarnation as an album, this was before the cast recording of the workshop.

[7:29] Rachel Chavkin: Totally.

[7:30] Gordon Cox: Right.

[7:31] Rachel Chavkin: So this was the, I guess, let's call it the concept album, right?

[7:32] Anaïs Mitchell: It's properly a concept album, yeah. And the... Yeah, just the melodies of it. I mean, that song, Wait for Me, that Anaïs told the story of, is just hauntingly beautiful, and immediately evoked a ton of images. And then I was so moved by the poetry, as well, by the lyrics, and the philosophy in the lyrics, and the delicacy of them. So I just fell in love with the music, very purely, and then began really enjoying talking to Anaïs more and more.

[8:03] Gordon Cox: And so then, how did you, the two of you together, conjure the world? It's set in a very, sort of, I was about to say specific, but that's not quite the right word, but it has a very specific texture to it, and it's not quite realist, and not quite a dream. How'd you come to that? Was that in your head from the beginning, Anaïs?

[8:22] Anaïs Mitchell: I think it's been a lot of trial and error on the part of... These last few productions we've done, you should maybe talk about it, because...

[8:29] Rachel Chavkin: No, no, no. The trial and error is a good thing. I mean, I think the image that has really stuck with me, that Anaïs said at one point, is trying to focus a camera, and that actually at one... We were trying to dial it into focus, and then at one point we actually over-focused it, and suddenly everything... I should say the first thing Anaïs ever said to me when we were working on this piece is, this is a poetry piece, not a prose piece. And so what that has meant has both that it rhymes, certainly, in its most basic form, but also that it needs a gauziness of world. So yeah, there's a bunch of different specific things that we're invoking, including... There's obviously the trombone in the orchestrations, and we looked at research of Preservation Hall, and talked about music spaces, and the culture.

[9:24] Anaïs Mitchell: Preservation Hall is a space in New Orleans, yeah?

[9:26] Rachel Chavkin: In New Orleans, yeah. Really extraordinary historic jazz space in particular. And looked at all these claustrophobic clubs for gathering, for old storytelling, and for music, which is what Anaïs breathes out of every fiber of her being, and that is what this piece is at its core, is a music event. And so we wanted to make a space that could get really theatrical, and now it does. The number wait for me is this sort of massive spectacle, but at its core, it's also a really intimate space that is rooted in clubs.

[10:03] Anaïs Mitchell: Right, right.

[10:04] Rachel Chavkin: And I would just add that I think when I first saw Great Comet at Ars Nova in that tiny space, that's exactly what it felt like to me. The weirdest, most awesome rock show, and then also a totally delightful, accessible story. And I think that one of the reasons I chose so admire and have gravitated towards Rachel's work is that she so deeply loves and gets what music is. Even though I don't play it. I know nothing about it, actually. But I think the idea, I love being in a space with musicians. That's my favorite thing. And I think I'm always interested in creating a world that A, one wants to be inside, both the performers, but also the audience, that you want to inhabit this space together. And then there was just something so ancient about what Anaïs was doing in this, in terms of both the myth and the ancient act of retelling a myth for your times.

[11:04] Gordon Cox: Right. That first production at the workshop, for any listeners who didn't see it, had a very in-the-round concert feel to it.

[11:14] Anaïs Mitchell: It was very highly staged, but it was like, you know, concert-y. It was a little bit like, and I asked what you were saying for that first production of Great Comet. What will audiences see on Broadway? Because that's a, you know, the curve's a proceeding space. It's pretty different. I mean, I hope that like what anyone who saw it at New York Theatre Workshop, I hope is going to recognize the DNA. Spiritually, in like a heartbeat, we've talked a lot about like the vibe. And that we actually lost the vibe for a moment of development, and then worked to get it back in the design and the culture of the performance. But also, they're going to see, and certainly new audiences to the show are going to see, an enormous world that is this like, starts as this claustrophobic, intimate, I should say, like really cozy club, and then just opens out and opens out into this industrial world.

And so tell us a little bit about once you figured out that it was about Orpheus and Eurydice, and then you started digging in, what did this story then become about for you? What did you find as you were sort of tugging at all those threads?

[12:27] Anaïs Mitchell: Well, I think from the get-go, you know, one of the draws of the story for me is that there's this protagonist who's a singer-songwriter, musician, and yet, you know, obviously the story has been told many times, because I think composers are really drawn to that story. But also this idea of this young idealist who crashes up against this world, the underworld, which in our telling is a sort of, it's something like a company town, where it's a place of relative wealth and security, that people have traded a sense of aliveness for a sense of certainty. And that just felt very rich 12 years ago, and it just continues to unfold in different ways, you know. We're dealing with an above-ground world where the seasons and the weather are unpredictable, and that is, you know, the realm of Persephone, the queen of the seasons, and at some level it's attributable to this deteriorating marriage between she and Hades, the king of the underworld, who is the industrialist.

And, you know, one of the things that Hades is, one of his projects is he's walling off his nation-state from the poor people outside of it. And so those things, you know, obviously have taken on a whole new meaning. I mean, that song in particular was very striking as the show was first performed at the workshop in, I guess it was the spring of 2016, and we were sort of in the height or depths of the presidential election campaign then. And what was that like to sort of see that, feel that resonance in a way?

[14:18] Rachel Chavkin: Yeah. That must have been surprising, I imagine?

[14:20] Anaïs Mitchell: So weird. So weird because, right, and that song is one of the first ones that I wrote for the show, and that's one of those rare moments where it kind of tumbled out, and I didn't even know quite what it was. And I'd been singing it in my shows for, you know, literally a decade, and then suddenly it was people were just responding in a really different way. I had thought maybe it would go away after the campaign, but apparently not.

[14:46] Rachel Chavkin: No. Right. Yeah. And I know that it sounds like there's been a fair amount of development in terms of what even the score is, and there's been, you know, additions in songs and additions in kind of chorus. I know I've talked to you both about it. Tell us a little bit about some of the development of what the show has become and how it has kind of expanded out.

[15:07] Anaïs Mitchell: Yeah. I mean, the ensemble is a big one, and that was something that we began talking about before New York Theatre Workshop but didn't have the money or the space to put them. And I think what the addition of the workers' chorus, as they're called, has done is both it's widened the scope of the show in terms of, like, the joy. Like, they're just this extraordinary group of dancers, singers. And so getting to add all those both voices and bodies has just really enriched the life of the show. But then also it's radically sort of exponentially deepened the love story at the center because, of course, the central event is Orpheus comes down to the underworld to try to bring his lover back to the surface with him and to change the laws of space and time to do so.

And one of the things that a dear friend said after the workshop is, I get what that walk, what Orpheus and Eurydice's walk means for Eurydice. It means she gets out, but what does it mean for Hadestown? And so now with the addition of the workers' ensemble, the political, like, undertones of what happens when someone, whether they were born to do so or not, and I think actually our Orpheus, we've worked really hard to make him not a natural leader, but actually someone who is forged in, like, the crucible of losing his lover, that when someone dares to step out and speak truth to power and ask the question, why do things have to be this way, that that can change the world, not just for the love of his life, but also everyone who's living under these oppressive conditions. So I think that's probably the biggest spiritual and logistical change to the show from my perspective.

[17:10] Rachel Chavkin: I love that, what you just said. I thought it made so much sense to me. I was like, oh, this really makes sense like that. I will say that, like, I think people that saw the show at the workshop are going to experience, like Rachel said, the same DNA, the same culture, but a really different show, like a pretty radically different show. And there's been a lot of work in terms of, you know, and me coming from the, not from music theater world, not from the dramatic writing world, it's been a long sort of master class working with Rachel and our dramaturg Ken, and the theaters that we've worked with. I remember early on at the workshop, Jim Nicola, the artistic director there, I was sitting in his office, and he was like, So poetry is, you know, he was eating a sandwich.

And he was like, poetry is, I'm standing next to my sandwich and looking at it, and I'm expounding on the beauty of this sandwich. Drama is, I'm actually eating this sandwich right now in front of you, you know. And for me as a songwriter, oftentimes, you know, the songs are, they are a suspension of a moment. They are sort of like, let's dwell in this mystical space for three and a half minutes, where drama demands that you, you know, are in real time, you know, having experiences, making decisions, A leads to B, that kind of stuff. And so I think a lot of the work of the past few years has been to try to go into these worlds, these three and a half minute worlds, which do exist as a sort of suspension of reality, and get into them, you know, what are the stakes and what is the journey from A to B. So there are going to be a lot of those moments. I think that people who are asked to be pretty patient at the workshop with just like being with the music, hopefully there will be more for their dramatic mind to follow.

[19:04] Anaïs Mitchell: And so are there a lot of new songs, or is it more just sort of reconfiguration of songs, or rethinking of songs?

[19:12] Rachel Chavkin: Yeah, I would say more the latter. It has always felt like the show was sort of at capacity for, you know, how many musical themes, and then we're trying to like streamline it and condense it and stuff. But to make those songs that exist work harder on behalf of the storytelling has been the project. And so sometimes that's a recit, you know, interlude in the middle of the song, or an intro or an outro or a bridge where we can be in the moment, moment to moment.

[19:44] Anaïs Mitchell: What do you each consider sort of the biggest things you have learned in the journey from the workshop to you? You played Edmonton, which first of all, how did you get to Edmonton? And then you were just at the National. What are the biggest takeaways that kind of helped, Rachel, as you said, kind of focus the lens?

[20:01] Rachel Chavkin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't all Broadway shows go to Edmonton?

[20:04] Anaïs Mitchell: I mean, New Haven, Chicago. Classic, classic. It was very cold there. And they were very good to us. It was wonderful. I mean, I think actually I guess I would point to that moment as actually the biggest learning experience for me. And it was really hard. Like I was spontaneously weeping at all hours of the day because I was like, oh, we've, and I felt I have killed it. Like we actually have killed this thing. And I should say I've never, ever worked on a show as hard to direct as this show. I've never worked on something as delicate. And I think for all the reasons like implied in the thing Anaïs was just talking about, like you come to this world of music theater, musical theater, as like both a worshiper and also as like an alien.

And so that the, and so the songs, the writing is just unique. It is so singular in terms of the way music functions and the like gossamer of the world is spun through every lyric and every melody. And, and so how the show has wanted to inhabit space and, and whether it wants to become a quote unquote representational musical with like real railroad tracks, for example, versus staying as a concert with microphones. What has slowly become clear is it didn't want to be either of those things. Like it felt like a betrayal of theater to not take the leap into like seeing these scenes in full, which was not a step we really were ready to take at New York Theater Workshop. But in Canada, we learned the really hard lesson of going too far into realism.

And so suddenly the event had lost its spirit. And, and so with our set designer, Rachel Houck's beautiful blessing between previews one and previews two, I actually cut three quarters of the act one set. And suddenly it was like, oh my God, the whole thing blossomed back to life. And the actors remembered everything from a four hour rehearsal because as soon as we re tapped into the, the vibe.

[22:27] Gordon Cox: Welcome back to Stagecraft. I'm Gordon Cox, and today we're diving into the creation of the musical "Hadestown."

[22:37] Anaïs Mitchell: Thanks for having me, Gordon. It's great to be here.

[22:57] Gordon Cox: So, Anaïs, let's start from the beginning. What inspired you to adapt the story of Orpheus and Eurydice into a musical?

[23:17] Anaïs Mitchell: Well, I’ve always been fascinated by the myth. It’s such a powerful story about love, loss, and the journey to the underworld. I wanted to explore those themes in a way that felt relevant to today.

[23:37] Gordon Cox: And how did you come to collaborate with Rachel Chavkin?

[23:57] Anaïs Mitchell: Rachel and I met when I was working on a different project. I was really impressed by her vision and her ability to bring stories to life on stage. It felt like a natural fit.

[24:17] Gordon Cox: Rachel, what was your first impression of Anaïs's work on "Hadestown"?

[24:37] Rachel Chavkin: I was blown away by the music and the depth of the storytelling. It felt like there was so much potential to create a rich, immersive world.

[24:57] Gordon Cox: Can you talk about the process of developing the show together?

[25:17] Anaïs Mitchell: It was very collaborative. We spent a lot of time in workshops, experimenting with different ideas and seeing what resonated with the audience.

[25:37] Rachel Chavkin: Yes, and we also had a fantastic team of designers and actors who contributed their insights, which helped shape the production.

[25:57] Gordon Cox: What were some of the biggest challenges you faced during development?

[26:17] Anaïs Mitchell: One challenge was finding the right balance between the mythological elements and making it feel contemporary. We wanted to honor the original story while also making it accessible.

[26:37] Rachel Chavkin: And we also had to figure out how to stage the underworld in a way that felt both magical and grounded.

[26:57] Gordon Cox: That sounds like a tall order. How did you approach the music in the show?

[27:17] Anaïs Mitchell: The music was integral to the storytelling. I wanted each song to reflect the characters' emotions and drive the narrative forward.

[27:37] Rachel Chavkin: The score has a mix of folk, jazz, and blues influences, which helps to create a unique sound that feels both timeless and fresh.

[27:57] Gordon Cox: And how did you go about casting the show?

[28:17] Rachel Chavkin: We looked for performers who could not only sing beautifully but also embody the characters' emotional journeys. It was important to us that the cast had a strong connection to the material.

[28:37] Anaïs Mitchell: Absolutely. We wanted actors who could bring their own experiences to the roles, making them feel authentic and relatable.

[28:57] Gordon Cox: What has the response been like from audiences so far?

[29:17] Anaïs Mitchell: The response has been overwhelmingly positive. People seem to connect deeply with the story and the music, which is incredibly rewarding.

[29:37] Rachel Chavkin: Yes, it’s been amazing to see how audiences react to the themes of love and sacrifice. It resonates with so many people.

[29:57] Gordon Cox: As you prepare for Broadway, what are you most excited about?

[30:17] Anaïs Mitchell: I’m excited to see how the show evolves in front of a larger audience. Each performance brings new energy and insights.

[30:37] Rachel Chavkin: And I can’t wait to see how the design elements come together in the Broadway theater. It’s going to be a whole new experience.

[31:07] Gordon Cox: It sounds like an incredible journey. Thank you both for sharing your insights on "Hadestown."

[31:27] Anaïs Mitchell: Thank you for having us, Gordon.

[31:47] Rachel Chavkin: Yes, thank you!

[32:17] Gordon Cox: And to our listeners, stay tuned for more behind-the-scenes stories from the world of theater.

[32:47] Gordon Cox: Until next time!