This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:15] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of The Cat Statistrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest who is also part of the Broadway Podcast Network family with me. John Schwab is the host of an amazing theater podcast named Curtain Call. I've listened to a bunch of his episodes and love what he does. He's also a producer, actor, and director. He's been in a million things you've seen on stage, at the movie theater, on TV. Go look him up. You will be very impressed with that list. But he's also a very big Cats fan, and we are doing this as two parts. So this is part two. Part one was on his show, where we talked a little bit about how this chaotic podcast came to life. And now we're having John on to talk about his show and his fandom with Cats and get into all the craziness. So welcome and thank you for joining me.

[1:04] John Schwab: Oh, man, Mike, thank you so much. I'm such a fan of your podcast. I'm an original listener. I go back all the way from your single episodes, I should say, when it was just you.

[1:17] Mike Abrams: Just me.

[1:19] John Schwab: And I'm really happy to be here. Seriously happy. Thank you for having me.

[1:22] Mike Abrams: I love it. I think when the first time we met was during the pandemic, when we were doing monthly meetings, and it was just all the Broadway podcast networks, different hosts were coming on and sharing, like, who's doing what with virtual recording? And I joined a couple. They were always during the workday. And so half the time, I'm like, can I be at two meetings at once or not? But I remember meeting you the first time, and I know you're in London. And I was like, we got people in London. It was just so bizarre for me to be even in that room. And then I remember you saying, I love your show. I'm like, people listen to this show. I was still so new that I was like, man, that's awesome. So I've been waiting for this for a while now.

So I'm glad we're making it happen. But I want to start at the beginning with you and Cats. So I know you've seen it many times, but you work in theater, you've done theater, you have a theater podcast. Cats is kind of one of those iconic shows. When was your first viewing?

[2:18] John Schwab: So my first viewing would have been – we were taken as – there was a production. Now, I haven't gone through and done the years, but I grew up in Chicago. And we used to get loads of theater through Chicago. And mom and dad took us to the theater. I mean, the reason I'm an actor is because when I – I think I was maybe five or six years old and I saw a production of – a kid's production of The Princess and the Pea. And I remember the mattresses being stacked so high on this stage. And I was like, how does she feel that pea? She loves them. But I was instantly into it. So it would have been a production in Chicago. And I was eight, nine years old, I think, nine years old. And I had no – Mike, I had no idea what was going on.

I literally had no idea what was going on. I was fascinated by theater. So I was watching the makeup. I wasn't watching relationships. I was watching the lights. I was watching a tire come down from the rafters. I was in a junkyard. That was part of my, what? This is insane.

[3:37] Mike Abrams: Yeah, you were immersed.

[3:39] John Schwab: I was totally immersed. And I think as a nine-year-old, seeing that and somebody who was in theater – listen, I was – my parents are always supportive of the arts. And my sister and both of my sisters and I played in a youth orchestra in Chicago. I did drama from second grade on. I was always looking to be in the school play, that kind of stuff. So I was already in. So for me, I think I was just looking around. I was looking around and the cats, I was like, this is crazy. They're cats in the audience. And I didn't kind of experience the same thing until I saw The Lion King at the beginning of The Lion King. But the same kind of feeling of, oh yeah, this is theater. This is theater.

[4:28] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I mean, it's kind of one of those shows that it works. I was very hard on kids shouldn't see it at all. Now I'm a teenager, shouldn't see it at all. Kids are fine because it's going to go over their head. I mean, 12-year-olds. I mean, I can't imagine saying this is a 12 or 13-year-old boy. I would be looking at all the wrong things.

[4:44] John Schwab: Yes, yes. That is – it's so sexual.

[4:53] Mike Abrams: So you saw it young, but you've seen a lot of productions over the years, right?

[4:57] John Schwab: I've seen a few strange productions over the years because I'm a military brat. I've lived all over the world. So when we traveled in Japan, I saw a production in Japan. I saw – I was in Seoul in 2000. When did I – not 2000. In 1993 or 4, I saw a production in Seoul when I followed my wife to London. And I saw – it was not the Gillian Lynn Theater at that point. It was the New London Theater. I saw that production. So I have seen a few of you.

[5:29] Mike Abrams: Wait, so was that the production with the street tugger?

[5:32] John Schwab: Oh, no.

[5:33] Mike Abrams: With the rap and hip-hop tugger?

[5:34] John Schwab: Now, listen, this was in – when did I see it? 1990.

[5:38] Mike Abrams: Oh, okay. So it was before, before.

[5:39] John Schwab: No, this is before. This is before. Because that was 20 –

[5:44] Mike Abrams: It was in the – yeah, sometime –

[5:46] John Schwab: Teens.

[5:46] Mike Abrams: 20 teens. Yeah, 10, 2000.

[5:47] John Schwab: Yes. No, it wasn't. So I was in – at that point. No, that was the relaunched theater. So I saw it. It was like in 2000, maybe 2000. So 2002. So it was – because I think that production closed in 2004. But I saw that at the New London Theater because I was in the West End at that time.

[6:03] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[6:04] John Schwab: And what I would do is when I had a matinee day off, I would go and watch a production because we knew all – in those days, all the box office managers knew everybody else. So we went to see everything for free. So if you had a matinee, you can go – they would go, hey, you want to go see Cats? And I'd be like, yeah, let's go see Cats. You just pop in and they just walk you through. So I saw that production, which was fascinating. I love that stage. The New London Theater, which is now the Gillian Lynn Theater, it's a great, great stage.

[6:30] Mike Abrams: Yeah. So you've seen it in different languages, too.

[6:34] John Schwab: I saw it in –

[6:34] Mike Abrams: So I want to go back to – it's Japanese, right? They do it in Japanese?

[6:38] John Schwab: I saw it in Japanese and – which I knew a bit of Japanese, but I didn't get – I didn't really – that was – again, that was much more – I was 16, 17 at that point. And I was just like, these cats are hot. This is amazing. These cats are incredible. And then I was 19, 20 when I saw it in Korean. And I – that was the first time when I saw it in Seoul, Korea. It was a local production. It was in Korean. And I couldn't understand anything. I didn't know much Korean at all. I knew a bit of Japanese, but I didn't know much Korean. It was the first time, like, I thought – I really saw a musical transcend language. It was much more about the language of the cats. So I was trying to figure out – again, I knew nothing of the plot, Mike.

I knew nothing of the plot. I was still as confused as ever. Although I started seeing cats kind of paired up. And you'd see them travel across the stage together. And you'd see somebody defending this cat or defending – like, pushing cats away. And I was like, what? I've never noticed that before. What's going on there? But yeah, seeing it in different languages. They had different names.

[8:00] Mike Abrams: Mm-hmm.

[8:00] John Schwab: Sometimes, you know, in Japan and Korea, they don't have certain continents. So they would have slightly different names. And just to make them scan within the meter and rhyme of the lyrics. But Grizabella was always, you know, the one that went. And you know who Old Deuteronomy was. And Rum Tum Tugger. And you knew the major cats, but you didn't really kind of work out who was doing what. It was still madness. Still madness.

[8:18] Mike Abrams: I think there's a big reason why it's sustained so long and it's been able to perform all over the world is because you can make those tweaks and put it in a different language. And the story's so loose that it's fine. And you know, I remember seeing a lot of international people in the theater with me in New York. And I was like, this is the smartest show to go see because you don't need to follow it to enjoy it. You can just watch the dancing and be happy. But I did just record with somebody. And I think it's the most recent episode that has come out based on when this will release. Someone who did it in Mexico. And they just instead of when they changed the names, they just also just described some of the cats.

So it's like Cat Train instead of Skimbleshanks. And like Buster Jones is like, I think it was Gordito Cruz or something where it's just like, it's just fat cat basically. Gordito. I love it. And so they changed some of them where they just almost described it. I was like, hey, you could do that because it's Mr. Mistoffelees and Pumballurino. Like the names are ridiculous to begin with. So it's easy to make those tweaks and still have the same level of entertainment of the show. You're not ruining the core of this family, drama, tribe and redemption story that you get.

[9:35] John Schwab: I think it's interesting. The point you're making there is like having I've lived in London now for 30 years or the UK for 30 years. And that's kind of really, I guess my cultural sensibilities now are very English. And when you go back and listen to it, like Mungo Jerry and Rumpelteazer sound like the cat's personality. Buster Jones is a very posh name. It's like you can imagine somebody that comes from a massive 300-acre estate naming their child Bustopher, you know. And so you get that or Growltiger. It says, it kind of feels and that's TS Eliot's genius as well. So you get that. But I did have one thing, one thought just come to me when I was talking about the Korean production that I saw done in Korea.

It was there was a very famous at this. I'm not going to. Unfortunately, I apologize if that person's listening. I'm not going to remember her name. She was a local artist, actor. And I think she was like a famous television actor doing this. She was incredible. But she was the most glamorous Grizabella I have ever seen. She could see she was like, no, not rough and tumble. I'm not rough and tumble. And she was so beautiful, like it was ridiculous. I that is so it's fun. It's fun to hear that because there are those nuances. There's a lot of young Grizabella's now, which I'm like a 23-year-old, as great of an actress you can be is still going to be hard to be like, it's time like you've lived a war in life. But yeah, I mean, that's I think it's cool because they don't generally have to stunt cast this, but they can for a Grizabella or a special dancers, misopheles that you can.

[11:30] Mike Abrams: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was the last time. When was the last time you saw it?

[11:30] John Schwab: Okay, so I have seen like, since, you know, I watched, of course, I watched the 1998 movie that first that was, I have a really interesting kind of take on that. But I did see the 2019 film. You haven't seen a stage version. I haven't seen a stage version for a long time.

[11:48] Mike Abrams: Okay, this is terrible. Like I'm going to be I'm being a bit of a snob here. And I'm going to call myself out because sometimes you have to call yourself out. I didn't see Nicole Scherzinger do it. I didn't see that. And I should have. That was when we were doing the curtain call book and all that kind of stuff. We'll talk about it later. But it was just we were I was so, so busy. And then I just went, Oh, you know, okay, I've missed that. Maybe I'll see it soon. I would love to see it again. I would love to. I don't think my wife has ever seen it on stage. So we'll I cannot wait to take her and just I can't wait to watch her watching it.

[12:23] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Yeah. So I haven't seen it for a while. Okay. So the reason I ask is because you're you then start listening to my show in 2019, 2020. Yeah, I clearly in the beginning don't know anything. But it's been years since you're watching it. So I'm a little fascinated. Like what what were the as you listen to episodes were like, Whoa, I never knew that I would have never thought that like, what were some of those aha moments for you about?

[13:00] John Schwab: Okay, like the, the biggest thing for me is the biggest thing for me was the the interrelationships and the relationships of

[13:02] John Schwab: This is brothers sister sister and brother or these guys are sisters or these two are sisters. This is Jenny Any Dots, the mother of all these cats. Can you go? What you know, or did old Deuteronomy and Grizabella have a relationship? You know, like, well, I never thought of these relationships and it's interesting to hear some of the guests go, "Oh, we don't tell him." That's not kind of specific. This is what we're playing and you go, "Oh." My look, my mind is consistently blown. You know, constantly blown by your guests going, "Oh, yeah, I decided to say, oh, I think Mungo Jerry had a little crush on Victoria." You're like, "What? What?" You know? Yeah, crazy. It's fascinating to me because you listen to it a different way than even I do.

Like, I, you know, for my own show, I'm listening to it going, "Ooh, wait, if that is true, then this could be true," and I'm like trying to put together the family tree. And I hear you listen to it and it's like as an actor and a performer, you're like, "Wow, this is a really interesting behind-the-scenes take of how someone is honing their craft." And so it's like multiple people are listening to this differently. And yeah, I think that's what a cool part about this show is, being able to collect them and document that history but also be able to give different pieces of it. Like there are the super fans who are adamant that this is the relationship here and then performers like, "That's not how we played it." But then there's also this like, "I'm about to go do Cats, go listen and figure out how someone else tackled it."

[14:43] John Schwab: 100%. And I said this on our episode on my podcast, like I find what I find about The Wrong Cat Died podcast so interesting is that exactly that, Mike, is that I listen to it as a performer who is going, "What is your process?" And yeah, what did you find to mine a certain moment? Because there are moments that you see or that I remember now as something go, "I remember that look," or the cats being really nasty to each other in the corner over here going, "Why did they do that? Why did they hiss when that person came?" Or, "Why did that cat not want that character to come over?" And it's, you know, I think I never understood the Grizabella moment where they were just so horrible to us like cats.

Actually, I know cats. I'm not a cat person, you know, in life. I'm a dog person. You know, I mean, cats have robbed you blind if they had hands, man, they would take everything. Yeah, but I'm sure. So, but for me going back, sorry, I'm just all over the place. What I found and what I find interesting is that there's not one moment from any of your guests who are on stage going, "What am I doing here?" Yeah, I, as an actor, that is one of the most crucial things. I can't, I listen to a story, probably in the Kellan who was the last person I saw perform something from Cats live, and I'll tell you about in a second, but he was talking about there was a soldier on a Shakespeare Royal Shakespeare Company play and they were doing Henry the Fifth or something.

It was the, you know, before that, "Once more unto the breach," and as if soldier the night before when Henry's telling jokes and things, and he's sitting on the side of the stage and he said, "You know, but I'm saying, so what are you doing?" He's like, "Oh, I'm just kind of not much right at the moment." I don't think this person is doing much. Like, no, he's thinking about every meal he's had with his mother because it could be in it. And he just had this whole thing and I was like, "Yeah, yes, yeah." So when I hear your guests talk about their journey in the show on Cats, I, that's why I love each episode. I'm going, "I remember that little moment," or that, you know, that Grizabella not wanting to get up on the tire, but you know, what is it?

Yeah, people push it. It's just, yeah, I love it. And for me, it's different almost every time. I can talk to two different Grizabellas and get two semi-different answers at times or, yeah, it's like I love asking, there's no answer to where does Grizabella go when she leaves the tribe? All right, there's no real answer to that. Some people have full-on, I've thought this through word for word of where they went and other people are like, "No, I didn't really need that to go do my next part of the show." And that is interesting. But I want to hear, I know which episodes stand out for you because like it's, I got 150 of them now.

[17:39] John Schwab: I know so, so I, my favorite ones were, we were just talking about, so, and you had an episode with, I think a guy called Benjamin and he was, it wasn't so long, I'm saying a couple years ago this episode and it was out there, lockdown journey and it was, it was fascinating because he was in Australia, wasn't he? He was doing the, um, yeah, Ben Colley, Benjamin Colley, that's the guy. And he got asked to go to Korea to do, and he's like, "Oh, they're doing it." And it was the, he talks about going to Seoul and because they had to quarantine, he was locked up for two weeks and he said it was just the only view he had was the outside of his window. And that absolutely resonated with me because I was, yeah, I mean, Jack Ryan or no, I was filming Dust Boat or something like that during, during that, but where I had to go in quarantine in Prague and there was me and one other guy in a hotel with 200 rooms and I thought I was going insane.

It was like The Shining. They turned all the lights off in the hotel except when we left, the lights would come on and we'd go to breakfast and they'd make us breakfast or for whatever. So, and it was his then going into the rehearsal room and having to be next to people and going crawling all over people. I got, I know it sounds pat and everything else, but I got chill bumps and like really got emotional listening to that episode because I was, I remember it took me straight back to that moment of going that human need of connection. Yeah, and then get when I got out of that hotel and got on a plane to Malta and was met by some of the cast members I'd worked with the previous year, I was like, I was like in floods of tears going, and so that episode brought me back.

[19:23] John Schwab: I love your parody. You listened to, what did you listen to the one with Dory and Sammy? So Dory Berenstein, who's the other, I've listened to all of them. Yeah. Yeah, worked, that's right. They made a movie about it. Yes, they made the movie, really, really interesting to watch. Yes, because like what Benjamin was able to tell, yeah, a watch in, yes, exactly, in Dory's movie, The Show Must Go On, that thing, and Sam is incredible. She's doing How to Dance in Ohio and they're fascinating, but that movie was really interesting because it was that and Phantom kind of going, that's right in time, really beautiful. I mean, just incredible movie and listen, say what you want about Andrew Lloyd Webber, like he busted his ass to make sure the theater industry did not implode over, not just over here in London or in the States, but you know, by putting on Phantom in the Far East, by putting on these Cats in Seoul, he was like, "Guys, we can do this." Yeah, you know, we can do this. I loved your parody song about exactly that, about coming back. I was like, "Ah, you got your own parody song beautifully sung."

[20:30] John Schwab: There's one of my, that I've got two more. Okay. This, and it's somebody who now I may have got this wrong because as well, but I remember it's Emma Kamara or something like that. She didn't get into Cats and her audition story is one of the best stories about just going balls out and you know, and she wore her white unitards and the tiger onesie and went all in, all in. And need a spoiler alert, didn't get it. Yeah, and but what she was was true to herself. Now again, I really connect with the guests because of their journeys and she, I only play certain degrees of me, Mike. I'm not that. Yeah, when casting directors cast me, they know they get a certain, "Oh, we need John Schwab for this."

You know, we need a guy that can do, and so that's what I go in with, you know. It's when I try and be somebody else that I stick out like a sore thumb and I'm not believable and that's cool. I, when she was saying she was stretching backstage before going on and she was crying real tears, I literally, again, I get like chill bumps. I've let it get emotional talking about it because I've been there, man. Yeah, in there going, "I was me, I did everything." She's, and she's such an interesting part of what we talked about on your show. What is a lot of my guests are kind of sent to me by some other people like, "Hey, I talked to, you know, I talked to this person, then they said talk to this person."

And so she was really good friends with a lot of the cast from 2016 and a couple people like Colin Cunliffe, who's about to be in Cabaret and it was right, Skimbleshanks, and they were like, "You've got to talk to her, stories wild." And she came on with the best humor of it. She was on a TV show at the time too. She was so fun about it. She like, she, you know, she processed, she went through the emotional grief of not getting it probably and then was able to look back in humor. And I love those conversations because it's a different angle of the show where it's like somebody else who still like wanted it, wanted to be Victoria, yeah, didn't get it. But here's how they went about it. And yeah, so yeah, I'm to hear that those, those are fun.

[22:46] John Schwab: It is, it's almost like the story, her story is fascinating. You have to listen to the episode because you can hear the whispers in the wings, right? Yes, she has people texting her going, "Have you heard from other shows?" Because news travels fast in our business, man. Look, I was on stage once in a really bad musical called, called The Concert They Never Gave, right? And it was a concert. It was a, it was a thing was Elvis, Roy Orbison, Buddy Holly, and Eddie Cochran, right? And so we had all three. And so our Elvis decided to get drunk. Like we were up in Aberdeen, Scotland, and I know this is off topic, but this is hilarious. He decides to kind of, it has been there before the show. He's got some Jack Daniels and he offers me and my Bob and I'm like, "No, no, man, we're good.

We got to go and dance. You got to go dance and sing and everything else." We hear him do his first song, "All Shook Up," and he can't really sing as well and he can't remember the words. And Bob and I look at each other and he's like, "Oh my God, we're in trouble. We're in trouble here." I buy, and listen, man, audiences in England, Scots audiences in Scotland love their music. We get to "American Trilogy" and they've had enough and they start slow clap off. And we're trying to sing BV's. Oh, I wish it was, you know, we're going, we're looking at each other. Yeah, look what's going on. And by the time the show ends, 15 minutes after that, and he does, and he doesn't come back for the encore, which is our biggest cheer of the night from the audience.

And by the time we come offstage, we have a hundred messages on our phones and I'm going, "What the hell has happened up in His Majesty's Theater, Aberdeen?" Yeah, we hear that Clayton way, you know, it's, and it just, and but by the headlines of the local papers and actually Aberdeen Angus said, "Boo Suede Shoes." And I know, clever. I know it's clever, clever, very clever. But, and so I had to go on as Elvis for the rest of the week and it was this thing. But what I want, the long story of a short point is that it's the story off the stage. Like everybody knew Emma's story that she wasn't able to say before it even happened. And it was kind of that your heart hurts for her in this, but also, you know, it ends up happy.

It's a happy story. It goes on, it gets a great role in another massive musical and created a role. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's, to me, it's fun to hear different versions and parts of this because, you know, at some point there's only so much to say about Grizabella, Bombay Arena. Yeah, but yeah, everyone has a different process of how they created it, a slightly different backstory, the nuances of tours and regional productions and all this other stuff where stuff doesn't go right every night like it is live and or a version like that.

[26:04] John Schwab: I think that was Katherine Heaton. I think that's who it was. Phantom and did all kinds of stuff.

[27:10] John Schwab: Yes, exactly. She went and did Phantom. Yeah. Super awesome. Loved it. It's a great episode. Yeah. Again, such weird, not weird, but like unique stories of the show. I love that she was able to still find a way to do it because that's, it was still a happy ending. We're going to take a quick break and then we'll be back for more of The Wrong Cat Died.

[27:28] Mike Abrams: I want to talk a little bit about your show because there's another theater show. This is a theater podcast. So we have a lot of crossover type of listeners, but you've been doing it for a while now and you've had an evolution of it. So we were talking before about how some of it was listening backstage and all these different pieces to what it is with interviews and what it is today. So tell my listeners a little bit about what your show's about, how it's evolved and what to expect.

[27:56] John Schwab: Sure thing. So Curtain Call podcast started out almost by accident. It's kind of the same, almost where lightning struck. I basically was going through some old photographs and I was in the Reduced Shakespeare Company here in London for a long time on and off for, I think, oh my God, 11 years. But I was never in that show for that long, but you dip back in and out and they bring you back in. But a friend of mine, a photographer, had come back and taken some backstage photographs. When we were thinking about moving house and stuff like that, we were going through some stuff. My son said, oh, what's that? I went, oh, that was me backstage. And that's you. You were there. That's a picture of you backstage.

And he went, oh, do you have any more pictures? I went, no, I don't have any more pictures. Why don't I have any more pictures like this backstage? I want to do a book. I want to do a book where we go over a year backstage in London theatre from my point of view, like what it looks like standing in the wings. So I went out to a photographer friend of mine who I met at the Old Vic. I was on stage and he was backstage. He was a flyman and he was already taking the most incredible photographs of people coming off stage. He's got a picture of Rebecca Hall covered in blood. There was no one I could go to other than him. And we started this book. We were going to make this book. And we thought if they had 12 shows that say yes, we'll do that.

So we started with You're in Town, did 39 Steps, quickly started kind of doing some of the musicals. And Charlie and the Chocolate Factory said, we'll never let you, Matilda, you'll never get backstage doing this. And we got a lot of no's. And we're like, fine, it's okay. But as a result, because we knew it was just gonna be a picture book, we had to have some copy to go with it. So it's like, what I'll do is I'll record all of the creatives and cast while the show's going on or before. And so we have an archive of audio to then I'll just transcribe. And so we went to like you just said, you know, 60 shows, I went to 64 shows, I think we did that year, which we went to twice, once to watch and once to cover.

So I spent 130 nights at the theatre that year. And I mean, listen, I talked to everybody, you know, everybody, Imelda Staunton and Michael C. Hall and, you know, just people that I've loved. Olivia Colman, you know, it's just like, yes, these are my heroes. And I get to talk to them about being an actor backstage. And it was oftentimes during the show. So you'd hear the tannoy going, the show would be on and I'd be talking to them for five, I only did like five minute interviews, unless it was, we did it during the half and I do a slightly longer one. And then the book was published. And we went, we've got all this audio. Why are we sitting on it? Let's put some shows together. And that's what started it.

So I would put together compilations. I've always asked the people the same question. So I would, you'd have these wonderful shows of, of people and you hear the show going, it felt like you were backstage during the show. And then so we just kind of continued that. And, and, again, we thought we would do it for, I don't know, a few dozen episodes. And now we're on 100 and episode 180. Yeah, in that we've also, we've also done specific shows like Welcome to the Rock, which was a come from away podcast series. We've done Take You Bow during COVID. So people who didn't normally get a spotlight shot on them, you know, dressers and actors who wanted a bit of a buzz. We also did the Ghost Shows, which is one of my favorite series we'd ever done here.

And that was when all the shows that closed down when everything got cut off. And so all these people who were just about to go and do this, they spent, you know, it was then their first West End debut, or their first opera show and to be then told, no, you not only are you not going to do the show, you can't travel. Yeah. You know, you've got to stay where you are for the next three months. And it was, you know, so anyway, that that's kind of where we are. And it's just, I continue to do that. And I, you know, coming, wanting to talk to you, I just love people who are involved in this industry, whether they're run a podcast or they're a director, you know, I've got to talk to the people I've talked to are from directors, producers, all the way down to dressers.

And the spot that the person who's worked the longest at the English National Opera is a spotlight operator. And he's got his own episode, you know, and I think that's really, really interesting to me, at least. And I, you know, we could we and we have a good audience. So I appreciate it. Thank you to everybody who listens.

[32:54] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I think what I love about your show is there's I love the fact that it is recorded backstage, especially in the earlier episodes. You can hear that's like such a unique piece to it versus the like, what do you remember sitting in your apartment or like as we meet up about this and we're looking back versus in it and like truly immersed in it. I think you get a different set of answers than if you would go back a year later or six months later or even on an off day versus like they just came off stage. So I love that. And then I do think there's a lot and there's not a ton of shows that fully immerse into it, but there's a lot of people that are fascinated by behind the scenes. Like what actually does it take to put a show on?

And it's not just the, you know, you hear the controversies or the stuff that pops up in the news. Like I thought about like Here Lies Love where they had the whole issue with the musicians. Yeah. I always knew there was a lot of musicians on the show and, you know, but you don't see them, you know, they get their little bow at the end, they get the clap at the end, but I've now gotten to experience some of that and it's fascinating and you shine a light on those stories. And then I also love that you have talked a little bit sometimes in our meetings about how your show does really well at universities because you can shine a, you know, you can give a different format to still compliment a study of Shakespeare or something that's a little bit more, you know, of a tradition, probably something that a college kid or a high school kid doesn't want to be reading. So you bring another angle to it that's a little bit more entertaining than reading the text.

[35:32] John Schwab: Absolutely. So when we do A Bridge Too Far, which is this crazy, like you say, that came into the Broadway podcast network last November, and we just do, I got a fantastic writer who is, who writes for the BBC, writes for a lot of comedians, and we just take texts that we were forced to read, like The Scarlet Letter, you know, which is literally the ultimate slut-shaming classic piece of literature. I mean, it is ridiculous that they forced us to read this, where people just, these Puritans who are meant to be wonderful people and God-fearing, but also forgiving, not very much. We just take these long texts and we make them less than 20 minutes long, 22 minutes and 37 seconds, I think we call it. And they are, schools have now started to go, hey, listen, my 15-year-old would not read War of the Worlds, but he's listened to your podcast. So yeah, that's kind of a, that's also fun, Mike. It really is, man. It's good fun.

[36:26] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I love the, you know, this is, podcast is still such a unique form that I would still argue is in its infancy. Like, it's still kind of really starting to figure out, but there have been some really cool, fun platforms that have popped up out of this that I don't think I would have expected and might not have worked in another medium. Like, I'm not sure my show works unless I either fine-tune it into a stand-up, you know, like, I'm not sure it's a video, like, I'm not sure people want to watch us do the interview, but it works in this format because it is an interesting thing you can do. I think you said one time you were like cutting the grass or I'm on the subway or, you know, like, it's just kind of good a way to have, like, I listen to podcasts a lot when I travel for work on planes and that always doesn't work in other places.

So I do think the format's growing. It's going to be an interesting time with it, but it's cool to what it can do because it can do educational, purely entertainment, or, like, curated. I know that our network has a ton of these new, like, radio plays and, like, full-on stories being told and those are also super fun in a different format, but.

[37:49] John Schwab: I love the fact that we're going back to that. That was our entertainment in the 20s and 30s and as people, look, I believe that we're slowly regressing back into our caves. Like, you could literally live your life with never getting out of your cave. So we're, the audio format is great. And listen, go and listen to, there are some great podcasts, Rob Lowe's, literally, and Smart Lesson. You have a lot of Mark Maron and armchair experts, you know, where their celebrities have their celebrity podcasts. What I love about podcasts like The Wrong Cat Died is you don't know the people coming on it. I want real people. I want to listen to real people. I don't want to listen to the rarefied air in the studio, you know. I honestly want the grit and grime and go, what are the real people doing? That's why I believe it's in its infancy. I think some of these podcasts stick out or the real thing.

[38:38] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I love it. All right. This has been fun. I want to do the rapid fire. We got to go back to Cat Slam. So if you could perform in Cats, who would you want to perform as?

[38:51] John Schwab: Um, that's a really good question. Okay, so I have been. I didn't even think of it. Yeah. I've been playing a lot of bad guys, like really not nice people. And recently in some of the shows I've been doing just this and, and because they're always quite fun to play. So I'm thinking maybe Macavity, like, or, you know, somebody who's just stirring it up and being the kind of the arsehole in it all, you know? Um, so Macavity, he was, he like steers it and he's never there. He's like, he can do things and he's like, Hey, he's the guy that kind of goes, Hey man, your wife was looking at this guy and then walks away, you know? And so they're always fun to play.

[39:34] Mike Abrams: You've got the experience. You're ready to go.

[39:07] John Schwab: The last piece of Cats I've heard saying he did Gus, because he played Gus in the movie, didn't he? Yeah. And it was phenomenal. It was so good. It was one of the parts of that movie I liked. I thought he did a great job.

[39:22] Mike Abrams: Agree. But imagine him singing it without any cat makeup, without anything, and he's just going, this is a story. And it was just, yeah, amazing.

[39:30] John Schwab: That is awesome. So yeah, it would be Gus, but yeah, we'll get to that.

[39:33] Mike Abrams: Okay. Who are your favorite and least favorite characters in the show?

[39:37] John Schwab: I think I love Rum Tum Tugger. I mean, it's going to be an obvious choice, only because he's just so much fun. He literally is like a ball of energy. And every time I've seen it on stage, you knew Rum Tum Tugger just because of the song and everything.

[39:54] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[39:54] John Schwab: And he's just in people's face and loving it. I love that. I think Baba Marina as well.

[40:06] Mike Abrams: Teenage you like the Macavity song?

[40:09] John Schwab: I love the Macavity. Because he's also being talked about. He's being sung about. So it's like he's got his own... All the cats have their own theme music. They do have themes. Some cats that aren't singing about themselves, they're being, hey, check me out. I've got my own theme tune. Yeah, absolutely. I love the Macavity song.

[40:29] Mike Abrams: Any dislikes?

[40:30] John Schwab: Yeah.

[40:31] John Schwab: I think, again, it's quite... It's so obvious, but I never like Bustopher Jones. I don't like the air of entitlement. It really is a horrible stench. And if it played right, you can go immediately when the cat walks in, like big, just, I am so the thing. And I think, I don't know, correct me if I'm wrong, but in the movie, the new movie, is he part of the gang?

[41:05] Mike Abrams: He's played by...

[41:09] John Schwab: James Corden.

[41:10] Mike Abrams: James Corden.

[41:11] John Schwab: There were some decisions made on that character in the new movie.

[41:15] Mike Abrams: We could talk about that off air as well.

[41:17] John Schwab: That's a whole separate conversation.

[41:18] John Schwab: But I just didn't like it.

[41:21] Mike Abrams: It's a common answer because... And he's also cut from the Royal Caribbean Cruise production. It's also the Gus. So Gus, the same actor, plays usually an ensemble dancer, then Bustopher Jones, then Gus. So there's a little bit of the, you know, you can...

[41:35] John Schwab: It makes sense that you can get rid of him.

[41:37] John Schwab: Dislike him. Yeah, exactly. Favorite song from the show?

[41:42] John Schwab: Oh, that is a... Okay. It goes, I love Gus's song. I love Gus's song. Because...

[41:56] John Schwab: I love the... Okay. I love Gus's song because it tells his story about how proud he was. And that makes me... That is me. My wife and I were just talking about this the other day. And she said, you used to have a real thing about legacy. When you first started out, you were so worried about doing something that people would remember you for, that you'd have your name somewhere, that people could... This is pre-IMDB. You and I started pre-Broadway so it was like, I just want people to remember. And for Gus to talk about his Fry-Fro-Fiddle, you know, it just... And being so proud of it.

[42:35] John Schwab: As an actor, that's such a song for you too. It's all about life as an actor. Maybe one day I'm putting it out there. I can do... Maybe one day when I'm 70, I can go play Gus.

[42:44] Mike Abrams: Or when we do our production where we have a different category.

[42:47] John Schwab: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[42:49] John Schwab: You'll get your Jellicle chance.

[42:50] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I can get my Jellicle. But also, as a piece of music, because I'm also a musician, you know how I'm used to... You don't see this, but I think the Jellicle ball as a piece of music is something phenomenal with all of the things in it. It's crazy mad. So, I mean, as much as he can write, the overture. Look, ALW can absolutely write a tune. He's brilliant.

[43:16] John Schwab: You know, you come out... No, I'll be controversial. I did not like Cinderella, and I had a friend in it, Georgia. Sorry, I love you. But it just... I didn't come out humming anything. But, you know, Sunset Boulevard, you were humming, you know.

[43:31] John Schwab: You know, when you come out of Cats, you're... Even if it's just the opening to the drop of... You hear that. That is just a lovely thing that you're going to hum all the way home. So, yeah, the Jellicle ball, the overture, just... Naming of the Cats always freaks me out.

[43:49] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[43:49] John Schwab: Always freaks me out.

[43:51] John Schwab: That and the end, the addressing of Cats are the two that are...

[43:53] Mike Abrams: The addressing of Cats, the same.

[43:54] John Schwab: I'm like, yeah, the end, just the ending with the Jellicle choice.

[43:58] John Schwab: That was... If you would have taken a picture of me actually watching that as a kid, I would have been like that. Because I didn't know what these guys were going to do.

[44:05] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[44:06] John Schwab: Anyway.

[44:06] Mike Abrams: Okay, my last fun one before we get to the important one.

[44:09] John Schwab: Sure.

[44:10] Mike Abrams: I know you've been... One of your credits is you were in the Queen's Gambit.

[44:15] John Schwab: Yeah.

[44:15] Mike Abrams: And so I want to ask, which Cat do you think would be the best chess master?

[44:20] John Schwab: Oh, oh, that is such a good question, Mike. You're really good at this. Okay, if I...

[44:33] John Schwab: I would think old Deuteronomy, because he has powers. He could kind of work out. He could see all the different machinations of the person. He would be... I'm pretty sure old Deuteronomy plays chess. I'm pretty sure he does. However, the fact that you mentioned Queen's Gambit, I think Victoria is one of the most... As if coming of age, as somebody who doesn't believe in her... She's got something the world wants. In fact, gosh, just thinking about this, the last scene in Queen's Gambit, Anya Taylor-Joy is dressed all in white as the white queen. That could be Victoria.

[45:12] John Schwab: One of... I love the parallel. So I think there's a different answer to this question, which I like the Victoria, Queen's Gambit, kind of like that's a fun parallel. I think there's the twins, which is this is where, as I don't... I didn't know this until probably 20 episodes in, but the twins have this... They're the ones that before something happens, they turn.

[45:37] John Schwab: So I think they have this power that they're going to know your moves before you do. So it's Tantamount and Corcopat. I think they're the ones. They're probably hustling everybody in Washington Square Park, just because they know everything you're doing next before you do.

[45:52] Mike Abrams: I love that. That's very good. The twins, one gets in, one gets... That's very good. They're ready to go.

[45:57] John Schwab: That's why you're hosting this podcast.

[46:00] Mike Abrams: Yeah. That's why we're 150 plus episodes in.

[46:03] John Schwab: Okay. Most important question. You know it's coming. I've argued at length against Grisabella. Are you going to defend her or are you going to pick somebody else?

[46:09] John Schwab: I am not going to defend Grisabella because I don't know who is Grisabella. Okay. And my two... And you've recently argued this in one of your podcasts. And I have two issues. I would love it to be Gus. He is my favorite cat in the thing. I just love Gus. I think I would love to see Gus and where they go once they're taking the Heaviside Lair. How many lives has he had? I'm not sure. Can he come back and have another crack at this acting game, which he so loves, right? I love that idea that Gus... It could be Gus. We don't really know what Grisabella does to piss everybody off so bad. She could be horrible and she may... We really don't know.

[47:04] John Schwab: My thing is I don't understand why old Deuteronomy holds all the cards. Now that I've listened to your podcast enough and now where I've gone back and I actually watched a few clips from the movie. What you don't get, though, when you're watching the movie on the 1998 movie is you only get to see what the director wants you to see. And you don't get to see all the things that are happening around. But old Deuteronomy, why is he... Why does he get to... And why isn't it him? Why does it... Can it not be old Deuteronomy, Mike?

[47:43] Mike Abrams: That's a good question. I think eventually it has to be him, right?

[47:46] John Schwab: It has to be him.

[47:47] John Schwab: Otherwise, you're not grooming Munkus Trap for nothing.

[47:51] Mike Abrams: Exactly.

[47:51] John Schwab: We only get one night. We only get one piece of this puzzle. So he is the... I think he's number three in votes right now behind Grisabella and Gus.

[48:02] Mike Abrams: Well, Gus is my number one. For me, I've kind of... Old Deuteronomy, everybody goes like, oh, he's so great. And what it alludes to me is it's somebody who's given power, who now he has the power and goes, I don't care what you all think.

[48:22] John Schwab: Because I can be whoever I want. And just point... Because it also goes to me, why hasn't it been Grisabella yet? If she was ready and no one likes her, he's actually a little bit of a sadist by not letting her go before.

[48:37] John Schwab: I do feel like this is a cult at the end of the day. And it has very much... If you get into some of the... There's a lot of documentaries now, they're popping up left and right on streaming sites like Netflix. And if you watch some of them, I'm like, this could be the Jellicles. You got a leader who's sacrificing somebody, convincing them to do this. You got all these different personalities that all kind of buy into the same ritual. It's there. That angle is there.

[49:06] Mike Abrams: Yeah. And it's who's following who. Oh, my gosh, I'm forgetting the name now. Who is it when they dance? Everyone sways with them as well. There's a part in the movie where everybody does the same dances.

[49:12] John Schwab: Oh, I don't know. I don't know.

[49:29] John Schwab: I'm forgetting. Anyway, I don't think it's Monk's trap, but it's not. Anyway, there's a moment where there's somebody on the platform in the junkyard and he's almost controlling their movements. Anyway, I need to go see it live again. I need to go see it live. This is it. This is me saying I need to go see it again.

[49:48] Mike Abrams: Well, you can hop on a cruise. I'm sure it was in Europe for a while. There's versions for us.

[49:55] John Schwab: Yeah.

[49:56] John Schwab: This has been so fun. How can people stay in touch with you, social media, what you're doing, the shows, the podcasts? I'll link everything.

[50:03] John Schwab: Absolutely. Well, if you want, personally, my socials are at John Schwab, just my name. There is a John Schwab out there who is a musician, but he's older and he didn't really know that social media was a thing before. So I got all the John Schwabs on X and Insta and everything else threads at John Schwab. The Curtain Call podcast at Curtain Call on all of those. And you can listen to Curtain Call podcast, A Bridge Too Far on Broadway Podcast Network. I have another podcast called Cinema Sound and Secrets that's out. And listen, I think when this airs, I will have just been seen in Masters of the Air on Apple TV.

[50:47] Mike Abrams: Okay. Awesome.

[50:48] John Schwab: So that's kind of the next thing that's coming out.

[50:50] Mike Abrams: Awesome. Well, yeah, we'll link everything too. And then the other part is this was two parts. So this was part two.

[50:56] John Schwab: Yeah. And go listen to the first part.

[51:01] John Schwab: Yeah. Go listen about Mike's origin story is incredible, people. So go and listen to part one. And Mike, thank you so much for having me on. I adore your podcast. I think it's brilliant. And there are so many more stories to come. I told you when we were setting this up that I think they're going to mention you when ALW does kick the bucket. You're going to be in his obit, man.

[51:18] Mike Abrams: I'm going to say the wrong Andrew LeWeber died. No, it's been so fun. And I love like, you know, we've talked for years now at these meetings and it's fun to really dive deeper. And I'm sure I'll see you at the next one. We still check out all the Broadway Podcast Network shows too. There's some really great theater stuff on there.

[51:40] John Schwab: Absolutely.

[51:40] John Schwab: Well, this has been a blast. So thank you. And thanks everyone else for listening to this episode of The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast, break down the catastrophe to follow along. You can subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify, or any or else's in the podcast. Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, threads and TikTok at The Wrong Cat Died or check out our website.