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[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande. Hi, I'm Cynthia Erivo, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network. Visit vpm.fm to discover more.

[0:29] Mike Abrams: Welcome to the wrong cat died. The podcast breakdown, the cat's astrophy. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have a very special guest, and I am extremely excited for this interview, because for months I've been trying to solve two of the most salacious rumors from the cats rumor mill, and today, I think we will find out the true answers. So he starred as rum tuck Tugger in the 2016 Broadway revival of cats. Welcome Tyler Haynes. And thanks for joining us. Thank you for having me. So I'll give us some time before we get into that. But I want to start with your history of cats. So before you became the infamous rug, tug, tuck, rum, tug, Tugger. Rum, tum, tum, Tugger. I call him just Tugger. Name is a is a mouth. Yeah, I the only one I really wanted to keep was I wanted to call bus for Jones, bus for rhymes the whole time. How

[1:18] Speaker 2: inappropriate can I be, as much as, okay, because we call them, but stuff or Jones plus. Okay, so it's gonna be that kind of podcast. You know,

[1:26] Mike Abrams: I'm excited. So before you took on, what did you have a nickname for Tugger? Oh,

[1:33] Speaker 3: Just Tugger. Yeah, that's enough already, yeah, COVID.

[1:38] Mike Abrams: so how much? And we have you seen the show before you became Tugger? Was there? You know, childhood moment where you saw it? Or what's your history

[1:46] Speaker 2: with this? Yeah, so I growing up the cat eyes I saw everywhere I was very familiar with the song memory. And then I saw the original Broadway production, not not the original cast, but I saw it back in 98 a girl from my high school, Meg Gulen, teen was Cassandra, so we were up here on a school trip. I saw it, and I did not love it, but I think it was because it had been built up my whole life, and and, and then I was just like, it's, it's, this is just a big ballet with cats. Then I saw it again a couple years later, hoping that I would enjoy it more and trying to find more in it. And I didn't find much more in it. And then I was cast in the show, and then immediately drank the Kool Aid and fell in love with it. I mean, like, I got roped in the minute Jillian Lynn, the first 15 minutes, the only 15 minutes she spent with us, we had to roll around each other and and grind on each other and get to know each other really quickly. And I was like, this show is for me, yeah. And then Trevor Nunn, just like, told us the origin, and I was hooked. And I loved it. I loved doing it. I love being a part of it. How I've been on both sides of it. How

[3:02] Mike Abrams: would you explain the origin you've had some actual inside information, because most

[3:06] Speaker 2: people don't know. Well, what Trevor had told us was, I think Andrew went to him with the idea, or they came up with it together. I know that TS Eliot's estate said that they signed off on it, as long as they stayed true to the poetry and didn't add anything. I know Grizabella was a poem, a lost poem, that they found

[3:34] Mike Abrams: that was too scary for children, yes, which is why they didn't put it in the book.

[3:39] Speaker 2: And then memory, the song memory, he had that Angela Webber had that in his he had been writing that for a while, and didn't know where to put it, and didn't find the right home for it. And so once they found that, then they married the two, and thus gave cats kind of an anti hero, I guess. Yeah. And and then they premiered it, and it was, it became what it became what it is. You know, yeah, that

[4:08] Mike Abrams: is okay. That's super interesting. I did not realize that memory was not written directly for it. It was already written.

[4:14] Speaker 2: That's what I mean. That's what if I my, mem my memory serves me correctly. That's what they told us on day one and years ago,

[4:21] Mike Abrams: what was your direction for your character? Because your character in 2016 is coming off of the rapping street cat version, yeah, which was, which was a disaster. It's

[4:32] Speaker 2: interesting because in when they were auditioning for this revival, everyone thought that they were going to go in that direction, especially once Andy blankenbuelers signed on fresh off of Hamilton, and people were like, it's going to be hamilcats and all these there was like this, all these rumors of who was going to be playing rum Tom Tugger. For me, initially, I wasn't, I didn't even audition for the wrong. I was up for another role. And then in my final callback, they had me. I didn't know the material, so they just had me sing a rock song of my own and and it was basically because of that, my banter with Trevor Nunn that got me the job and my direction. It was hard because with cats, like I said, Jillian Lynn was only there the first day for a very short period of time, and then she wasn't there anymore. And then Andy. They gave control to Andy, and Andy created something new. And so we didn't have necessarily a show Bible to work off of from previous productions. Chrissy Cartwright, who was Jillian Lynn's associate. She was there on hand to help guide us. But it was really kind of, we got to start fresh with it. And for me, it was hard, because I had a lot of there were a lot of cooks in the kitchen. I probably shouldn't say this, but the show is done now. So here it is, y'all. So I had like, you know, one, you know, somebody being like, This is who he is, and somebody else being like, No, this is who he is. And I had all these people coming at me with, like, this idea of who Tugger was. And for me, I didn't grow up on the movie or the show, and it was just I was kind of like, I didn't have anything to base it off of. So the direction I chose to go with it was Trevor pulled me aside and was like, All right, so I watch you in rehearsals, and half the time you're super professional, and the other half the time you're a bratty five year old. So that's who Tugger is. I want you to go with that. And I was like, okay, I can do that. So I started just making a lot of off the wall choices. And, you know the term where it's like, you throw spaghetti in to see if it sticks. I was just throwing spaghetti the whole run. I just didn't see. I just didn't wait. I just tried everything. And there were a lot of people that I I based, you know, I studied a lot of Freddie Mercury and Bruno Mars and Prince and Bob Fauci and Herman Munster and like, like, random things, the genie for Aladdin, like, all these, I was just non stop playing throughout the whole run. And that's what made it so fun for me, because I was with it for the whole run. And each show, I just tried something different, and Trevor really encouraged that. And it was the most fun I've ever had.

[7:20] Mike Abrams: That's amazing. So I guess you, did you boot up the VHS and even watch the movie before, or did you just kind of come in and try to create it completely yourself?

[7:33] Speaker 2: Well, I did a couple months before, Sarah Jean Ford, who played, or else, Jelly Loram, she's my best friend from college, and when we got cast in the show, I'm just laughing because I just remember with we both found out that we got we never thought that we'd be in the same show together, because we're just very different. Performers were similar actors, but, you know, like, I'm A Chorus Line and she's Christine, a fan of the opera, those worlds don't really combine cats unites like cats unites all so we finally got to do a show together. And we were like, All right, we need to sit down and watch the movie. And within the first 10 minutes, I was like, Can we stop now? And she was like, No, we have to watch it. Because I was like, I don't know if I can sit through this. And I have to say I'm being honest about this, because I love this show now. But at that point, I was just like, oh man. And so we sat through the whole thing. We not sat we watched the whole thing.

[8:28] Speaker 3: And you endured it. We endured it. And then

[8:31] Speaker 2: that was and that was the last time I ever watched it. I thought I would watch it again after the show was done, but I just haven't, and I probably won't, because I like the version of cats that I was in. And I just didn't. I didn't. A lot of people tend to, a lot of actors will go to look to that as a source for like, as their Bible. And for me, I just tried to stay away from it, because John Partridge, who was from Tom Tucker in, that did a great job. I just kind of wanted to create my own thing. And so that's why I tend to veer away from

[9:10] Mike Abrams: absolutely I do. I watched it one sitting as well. I've seen it one time, all right. I have watched a lot of the YouTube clips because that's what it comes from. But the first time I saw it, and I saw Mr. Mr. Shooting lightning bolts out of his hands. I was like, why can't we have that in the theater? Yeah, right. That was, you know, high effects for the what 90s. That was high budget. Yeah. So I want to talk about your song. Okay, let's do it. How many furries Do you think you created?

[9:38] Speaker 2: Yes, I don't think that created any, none. I think, no, I think, I think Tugger definitely did. That was the funny thing about what we realized with this show, and this show is such a phenomenon, that the people, the audience, the audiences that we had, were just, they just had so many different walks of life, and there were different demographics for. For each character, and I know for me, the thing that I enjoyed the most, and it was I was never taking it as, like, Oh, me, Tyler, like, I'm making them feel this way. It was the character. Because oftentimes I would come out the stage door and people would be disappointed that I wasn't in like, leather and chains and whatever, I come out and like glasses and be a big old letdown, but whatever, that's his life. But there was, I got a lot of older females, and then I got a lot of, like, really, this was surprising, like, Butch jocks like that were dads that were, like, weirdly turned on by my character, so

[10:39] Mike Abrams: they wanted to be your character. Sure be begin

[10:43] Speaker 2: whatever. There you go. Told you,

[10:47] Mike Abrams: so your your song. And I think hopefully people have listened to the episode I talked about, your song is overly sexual, yeah. And so in the movie. And this is I was basing off of, because I did see your performance. But I was so lost the first time I saw it, I was trying to figure out. I had no context of what it was. I didn't know. I just had free tickets on a on a preview, oh and, and, so I remember when yours came, I was like, Oh, this is fun. This is a fun song. But in the movie, there is a lot of crouch thus, and there's a few situations where it looks like it's about to hit a female cat in the face. Sure. Did you ever experience an rehearsal? Yeah, yeah. Are you kidding? Come on, all the time, not all

[11:27] Speaker 2: the time. It was like I said. Andy Blankenbuehler reworked that number, and so we didn't do that number. We did not stay true to Jillian Lynn's choreography. And Tyler me, I am a fan of just a pelvic thrust, and so, like, if Andy didn't put it in the show, I would make sure it was in there. And also, I had, you know, my partner for majority of the show was Christine Cornish Smith, who you interviewed, who was Bob ballerina, who is so you put the two of us together, and it's trouble, because we are both very our sense, senses of humor tend to lean a little more provocative. And so if there was yes, a lot of public thrusts into probably her head. You know which, which was whatever, as I said, keep going. I mean, I mean, if she was here, she could COVID on it, but if she didn't already, I don't know it was fun. I mean, they that his, and I'm gonna keep talking about Tugger like in that his, because he is a his own thing. And for me, he was his own thing, if that makes any sense. And I loved playing him, because there was so much freedom, and he's fearless. And I just learned a lot, but especially once you put that costume on and with that song, and just his entrance alone is just so you just feel like a freaking rock star, and then being on that stage and having people scream for you and, like, how could you not, like, just, like, gyrate on some cat's nose, like, because they're right there and they're wanting it. So you know what? There it was,

[13:11] Mike Abrams: gets edited. Nothing gets edited. So I do think your character does have an interesting potential family tree, when you think about it from that perspective. How would you interpret that? Well,

[13:26] Speaker 2: I so I had my own interpretation of backstories with each with with different characters in the show. And for me, I want to hear all of those. Okay, so they had told us on day one that monk monkey strap and Tugger were brothers, and were Deuteronomy sons, and monk was the chosen prince, and Tugger was the rebel. And so I'm not a big game of thrones. Fan Andy Huntington Jones was like, Oh, we're like, Jon Snow and the other guy, I don't, I don't know what that reference was, but I really went with the whole Prince, William, Prince Harry. Thing. Okay, so that's kind of, I was like, All right, and Andy and I, and I love him. He was great in the show. He's a great guy. But we heard there, we kind of turned into our characters during rehearsals and previews. He he's a little more diligent and consistent. And I'm just kind of can be a hurricane in rehearsals, as far as just trying whatever, and trying to get a reaction and and we really created a special relationship. The other element to that family that I had, that there have been like, stories out there that I really went with that was that Macavity was the third brother, okay, Third Brother, yeah, and he was, like the middle son,

[14:51] Mike Abrams: and then so that's kind of interesting when you think about Demeter and the sisters and and potentially that being someone that you're in. Relationship with, or a brother sister with, yeah.

[15:02] Speaker 2: I mean, I, for me, it was just my brothers were monk and mccavity, and I was the youngest, and Macavity just kind of went awry and went off on his own and kind of defied the tribe and his father, and was, you know, working his revenge and basically raising hell within

[15:23] Mike Abrams: the tribe. So now let's move to the one that has all the fan fiction about it. But Mr. Mustafa lees, what was your backstory?

[15:30] Speaker 2: Okay, well, I mean, it's interesting because he there's a lot of backstories written out there for you. There is and and coincidentally, Ricky ubeda, who played, who was the original mustafales in our production. We were buddies. We did on the town on Broadway together, and we decorated our room and all that. You know, the artwork, the erotic, Oh, yeah. So we called it took off police. That was, that was our name for it, because I didn't, until I heard your podcast saying tuxtophiles, I was like, Oh, I always thought it was to go please, or that's what we called it, but we there's no right answer here. There it is. Our room was decorated, and a lot of that to go fully is like erotic art that we framed. And that was just like we went with it because, because it's awesome. It's out there in these stories, and this, this fan fiction, and really kind of for for us and for me, like Tugger is a very he just, you know, he just likes love, and he likes anything. And misto is his, his boy, and also his, boy, his boy, in every sense of the word so. But ultimately, they were best friends, and that was something that Ricky and I, he is one of my dearest friends. He's such a great guy, and we just had the best time. And I think it translated on stage, because we just like making each other laugh to this day, like he's one of my favorite people and his the guy who played misto for the last half of it, Zachary downer, equally as fun, totally different, super talented, but like game to just play, and that's so much of cats. Why it's so much fun to do is because you just get to play around so much, and so you have to say yes, and you have to be you have to just dive into the world and and that's why I love doing it. That's

[17:30] Mike Abrams: awesome. You know, there's a bunch of fan art Instagram accounts that are probably thrilled to know that you hung stuff up. Yeah, I

[17:38] Speaker 2: think that Well, on that, we did a broadway.com vlog. Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. And somebody reached out to me on one of the social media platforms, because a lot of the footage, it's me, it's Ricky and myself in our dressing room, and they saw the their artwork up, because we like, you know, it was, it was awesome. I mean, we really ran with it, and people, the fans, really embraced that vlog that we did, and we just embraced the fans, because that's why this show is the success that it is.

[18:14] Mike Abrams: So I've got one more family tree question before we get into the two rumors that I need you to Okay, to debunk for for the world. Do you think Grizabella is your mom? Or what is the relationship in that? Well, for

[18:26] Speaker 2: me, I didn't go in that direction with Grizabella. I went in the direction that this is a long story. Basically, as a kitten, I Grizabella was active in the tribe, and I very much idol worshiped her and had a crush on her and whatever, and jelly Lorem and I were like little kitten friends, because Sarah Ford we Sarah Ford myself. We built our show around each other, which was really fun, because, like I said, we just like to laugh. Um, and then, essentially, Grizabella is the person, not the person the cat that turned Tugger into Tugger, because Grizabella deflower Tugger and then broke his heart, and then went off with mccavity and, like killed the last ounce of his kitten. So between that and then Tugger had. Tugger owner was a girl that this is all my stories. Is this written out in the fan fiction? Because it's, oh no, this is written out in like, my Tugger journal because I'm a total nerd, and I write out, like, character biographies and everything and and so I'd be sitting on like, top of the car during tech when they were teching Buster for Jones, just writing out the story, because it's just stuff for me that I have to know. But my owner was a little girl that was very much like for a salt Veruca Salt from Willy Wonka, just a little brat who would just dress me up like that, and I was just a pampered kitten that she played dress up with. So I was a punk part. Partially because of her, partially because of being screwed over by Grizabella, and partially because, like, I could, like, I could get away with it because I was Deuteronomy son, and nobody's gonna do anything. And so I'm just, just, like, all right, this is my world.

[20:16] Mike Abrams: That's it. That's almost a better story. Why don't we go with that? Okay? Or the musical great centered around you, perfect. That's around Tugger. That's how it represents cats. Okay, let's get into the two rumors. Okay, the one that I want to read, so it's a word for word, but it says there is speculation among both actors and fans of the 2016 Broadway revival that there's some sort of rocky relationship between Tugger and skimble Shanks, often one that changes every night, heated enemies, good friends or lovers. What do you have to say? Is it true? Is there it

[20:49] Speaker 2: is true? True. Okay, so Jeremy Davis, who was the original skimble shanks. Skimble Shanks, skim skim he great guy. Great guy. Also, in my opinion, looked was the hottest cat once he got hit the makeup on I was like, you win. You're the hottest cat hands down. So Jeremy Davis, that's for you, anyway. So Jeremy and I had worked together a couple years before in a film, and we reunited in the show, and we just had a great time. And the way that there are the people, there are the cats that are pro Tugger and against Tugger and skimble Shanks is very much against Tugger. Well, how the whole Tugger shanks? That's what the fans called it, Tucker Shanks, all right? Tugger Shanks came about. I believe we had, we had the best fans during the revival, and there was a group of them that would come to the show all the time, and each one of them identified with a different cat and and I believe it was, I feel like the Tugger Shanks thing came about because the one that identified with skimble Shanks, and the one that I that identified with Tugger, I don't know, planted a seed with one of us being like, maybe Jeremy and I did something on stage one night during what number was it during? I think it might have been during the ball. I feel like it was an act two. There was something. There was always an interaction that it's, I think one night they saw something, and so then they kind of planted the seed. Well, me being like, just game to try whatever. I was like, All right, so Jeremy and I are going to play this up one night. We just ended up playing different scenarios every night. It started off, started off, started off as something fun, just to, like, entertain more of the audience who's really, really looking for something like that. But then we ultimately just became something for us. I really wish I could remember exactly what moment it was, but it was definitely in there. And we, we played it up, or it didn't play it up, you know, yeah, how long did that go? It went, I think it pretty much, I think it started Jeremy left to go to frozen. He was there for the first year, I think. And it started about halfway, maybe about three, three or four months into the run. And it went all the way until he left, because it was just fun. I mean, like that was just that you would find these different moments with different actors on stage, and if they were game, then it became part of your show. And that's the beauty of cats. You can just adjust it accordingly every night. And that was why I remained with the show so much because it always kept it fresh. And some nights I'd feel this way about someone. The next night I would totally not and because that's how cats are, they're bipolar, they're all over the place.

[23:52] Mike Abrams: So do those super fans know that you kind of did this because of their I think so. I think so I ran on it,

[24:00] Speaker 2: yeah, I think so. I think I think they're probably listening right now, and they're hopefully having a chuckle about that, because I think they definitely know as they're drawing, as they're drawing, I hope so please for to send to you now or Tugger Shanks, man, Tugger shanks. That was way it started off. Took off police, and then it ended up Tugger Shanks by the end of the run. Did you have

[24:21] Mike Abrams: any other heated battles with anybody else? Um,

[24:25] Speaker 2: let me think no. I think I pretty much kept it like my my love interests in in that show were on ballgamena, um, skimble and misto. I remember at one point, I remember fans getting really mad because Kim foray, who was the first Demeter her and I are good friends, and she posted a photo of her and I in character, and she wrote like, Demeter loves Tugger, and the fans like came for her not allowed. No, absolutely not. That is monks girl and. I got, and she was, she was just like, This is nuts. And I was like, well, there it is.

[25:03] Mike Abrams: I always thought she was in an abusive relationship with mccaviden. Oh,

[25:08] Speaker 2: she is. She totally is okay. I mean, that guy, like, he's, you've got her, that's, like, you know, dealing with trauma, and then you've got bomb ball Urena, who, like, got off on it. Like, you've got the two extremes of, like, abuse right there. Yeah,

[25:23] Mike Abrams: it's by far become one of my favorite songs. It's, well, it's the show. It's my

[25:27] Speaker 2: I agree. It's my favorite song. And it's the when we did the sits Pro for the show that was the most exciting part, with the orchestra and like, and those girls just like, melting their faces off, and especially with like Kim and Christine, who are just so freaking talented, just it was in that room, just hearing it all come to life. It was thrilling. Thrilling. Yeah, your

[25:47] Mike Abrams: song. In that song created furries. There are multiple people who are now furries because of watching those two songs. Great.

[25:54] Speaker 2: I will take credit for both. So not

[25:57] Mike Abrams: the furry but different segue or mine with with Macavity being a great song, who would you say, if you weren't Tugger, would you either want to play or who is your favorite cat? And then least favorite cat? Not actors, just characters, totally stories.

[26:12] Speaker 2: Um, I It's interesting. I don't know who I would I think if I ever revisited this show, the only cat that I would want to play is Gus. I love Gus. I love Gus. I remember Christopher Gurr, who just gave a master class every night him and Sarah Jean Ford and Sarah Jane Shanks, who came in after Sarah Ford left. It was just such a beautiful moment. I remember the first time that they that Sarah Ford and GUR did. Then it was like the last number that they blocked during rehearsals. And then we were in New 42 and I'm sitting on top of the wood oven because they had a mock set, and they did the song for the first time. And literally, like you look around the room, and we're all like, perched as cats, like, just like crying and Andy black brothers looking at us like, like, What the hell is this? Because it was just so beautiful, and it was just the two of them were just magic together. And so was Sarah Jane with her. But also my favorite, can I cut you off real

[27:17] Mike Abrams: quick? Because I do think, I think it's a weird choice to make that the first thing, like, out of intermission, yeah? Because it's such a powerful, emotional song, and it's like people coming back from getting candy, yeah,

[27:29] Speaker 2: I think that I mean it. I don't know where else it would go, necessarily, in the show, unless, because it's like, you have to end act one with the ball, and then you have the intermission where you've got Deuteronomy on stage being mobbed by the audience, selfies, selfies everywhere, which was just nuts. And up in our our warm up space, they had a TV which was doing a live feed, so we would watch it. It looked like just a zombie apocalypse, like crawling up all over him. It was crazy. And then right after that, he scolds us Deuteronomy and the moments of happiness, because it's just like you are bad kittens for treating Grizabella like that. And then it goes into Gus. So it's kind of like, you know, it's a slow burn, I guess, but it just seems like that would be the only place, because there are like two ballads in the show, and that's it. I think

[28:23] Mike Abrams: you're over valuing how much thought went into the order of the story

[28:29] Speaker 2: here. I know, but see, that's that's my job as an actor to like a through line. And for me, like had to be the show I it was full like I had every moment of like you might not have known, but for me, I went on a ride every night.

[28:45] Mike Abrams: So let's talk about the movie, okay, either the first version or the the updated one, whichever one Did you see it? I

[28:53] Speaker 2: saw? Yeah, I saw the updated one, um, the day after Christmas, and I was really, really excited to see it, because I know when, when the first trailer came out, and there was this huge uproar about it, and my, my take on it was, it's exactly what I thought it would be. It's a weird show. So it's going to be a weird movie. And they already filmed the Broadway production back in 98 for PBS. So if they weren't going to switch it up, then why do it? And they did. They switched it up. It's it's not the Broadway show. And there were some choices in it that I really, really liked. I thought the dancing was great. I would have liked to see more the dancing, but I had a lot of friends in it, and I thought what they were doing was great. And I know how, I know how hard they all worked on that movie, because I know how hard we worked on the show and people, the thing that was weird for us bringing it back to our revival, was we worked. It was such a hard show to do. And I feel like a lot of people. I just like, had so many negative feelings towards the show and towards us, because they just don't like the show cats and so they were just wanting it to fail, not everybody, but it's just something. It's a stigma that's attached to the show. You either love it or you hate it. It's very polarizing. So I think with the film, like it was, it had everything going against it. Before a trailer was even released, people were wanting to watch it fail before they saw anything. So the minute that the trailer came out, and it's a weird movie, it should be, it's exactly what I thought it would be. And and then people were just like, just wanting it to fail. And is it a perfect film? No, but it has a lot of really great things about it, and I'm glad that they did a different that there is a different take on on the show, because there needed to be a different take with it, because they already filmed the Broadway show, yeah. And so they tried some new things, and some of them worked, and some of them didn't work as well as I'm sure they hoped. But like, I had a good time. And, like, I thought the cast, they did a good job,

[31:05] Mike Abrams: yeah. So we went into a lot of detail the day after show. I saw it with Alan Seales from the theater podcast with Alan Seales. And love that show, great show. And so I, I covered a lot of this. I think the stuff that, like, I agree with you. I thought the dancing was phenomenal. I thought it was really weirdly cut to not make you able to see a lot of it, yeah, especially with the talent that they had doing those those numbers, the only things that like, really still bothered me looking back multiple weeks later, is what they did with Mr. Police. I did not like that character, being kind of nerdy and quiet and unsure of himself, like it's such a confident character. Normally, I wasn't a big fan of that decision, and the ending just blew my mind when Judy gents just speaks to you, oh, right, over and over and over. Yeah, I can see that those are the only two things. Like, I thought the acting was great. I thought there were numbers that were really, really well done. I think it's, like you said, very overblown, because a lot of people are rooting for it to fail. And it's kind of a, it's kind of a running joke now, of Yeah, it's an easy punchline for, of

[32:10] Speaker 2: course, of course. And that's, and that's where it it's, that's just what cats is, unfortunately, I mean. But the thing is, like, it's definitely, and I, you know, there are things my favorite part of the movie, I will say this is going back on the Tucker Shanks thing was skimble shanks. I thought that number, and I thought that actor I love, I loved it. I was like, I feel like they took misto is dancing away from misto, and then gave it to skimble Shanks, like they gave him, like the dance number, because misto and the movie not trying to, like, spoil anything, but like, is it a dancer for 40 years? You can't spoil it. Well, that's true. I mean, just Yeah, singing and dancing cats, that's all it is. But not in the movie with misto. At least they made him not the dancer that he is in the show. And so they just kind of switched it over to skimble Shanks, and he got that moment. Okay, so

[33:01] Mike Abrams: I'm, I'm not gonna let you off the hook. I still want to hear your least favorite cat. And then I do have another rumor still, okay,

[33:07] Speaker 2: I'd love, let's keep going with the rumors. Least favorite cat, hmm, and it's not, it's not anything with the actors. Like I said, I liked the actors, but I think my least favorite cat was probably syllable, okay, yeah, um. But I just always, I think it was just more, I don't know, I, for some reason I found that character. I just didn't really, um, I don't know. I just, I would just pick

[33:36] Mike Abrams: syllabub. No one said Peter, and that's the answer. But here's

[33:38] Speaker 2: the thing that's fascinating to me, because you have, you have this disdain for Peter, but they named him Peter. But what about Victor or Bill Bailey? I

[33:47] Mike Abrams: don't know. What about Peter, but Peter? It's like, about just Peter being in the naming of the cats? Because it's not, they're not the rest of them, like Victor's not even it's Peter. It's, I mean, it's a saint.

[33:59] Speaker 2: Okay, I was going more with like male genitalia, but like St Peter, there you go. It

[34:05] Mike Abrams: is the one of the most common names, not in that way, but it's just a very common traditional name and a show that has very few other of those.

[34:21] Mike Abrams: the other rumor that, and this is was buried deep in YouTube comments. Okay, so I have no idea if there's any truth to this, all right, but it does involve you. And someone said that they went to see the revival in 2016 and that at one point there was a lady in the first couple rows in a rum tug Tugger costume, and you got off stage and went and took her seat and made her get up.

[34:46] Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh, wait, yeah, sure, I did. I did? I forgot that. Oh, my God. Okay, so there, there is a moment I totally forgot that. There is a moment in the show, in the revival, I know in the original show, too. Tucker. Would go out to the audience and

[35:01] Mike Abrams: make kids cry. Yeah, that's what Sarah said. She just made children cry. Yeah?

[35:05] Speaker 2: Well, it was like in green. I want to get back on green eyes, because I have a funny story about that. But let me finish this story with our show. Tugger would go out, and then they had this giant, like camera, and you would take a selfie with the audience. And then there was this Instagram account that would upload the photos every night. So there was, and we had a fun time with that. Like, I would be like, All right, give me a theme. I would ask different cast members, like, what would the theme be for this night or that night? And so if you really looked at the photos, you would be a guessing game of like, the theme or with Sarah Jenkins, who was Jenny Annie dots, we had a whole storyline going through it with the photos that would go on for a couple of weeks of like a relationship that you'd really have to dissect and see. But we knew it was up. But there was somebody dressed up as Tugger, I remember, and I did, I think I sat down, I made that person get up and do something in the audience as Tugger while I sat there as an audience member and watched, I mean, I they were dressed as I, for some reason I feel like they were dressed as somebody else. But obviously it would have been Tugger, because I wouldn't have to be

[36:14] Mike Abrams: fair, this is an audience that's recounting it on YouTube in the comments. It's

[36:18] Speaker 2: probably more Fauci anybody. There were so many things that, like, we did during that photo moment, like, I mean, it was just you, just as an audience member, you had to say yes, and there are people that would be totally game. And then there would be people that would just not want to be in the photo, and it would just kind of be, like a lesson in, like, reading people's body language. I remember there was one kid who had like, some M M's, and I started eating his M M's, and he got pissed,

[36:43] Mike Abrams: pissed. Why you don't bring children to the show? Yeah,

[36:47] Speaker 2: but, but, see, the thing was, and this is the other story I want to talk about, and green eyes at the top of the show, which I find terrifying. I think green eyes is so scary, and I loved it, because I would love to scare people, as would Sarah, and we would just creep up behind people in the pitch black and then flash the green eyes in their face, and they'd freak out. And it was always the adults that got more scared than the children. The adults were more terrified than the kids were. But I remember one time, and God got me, because I loved scaring people. And one time, during green eyes, I went down and I scared this little girl, and she punched me in the face. Like her, her, like in her reflexes were just like she punched me in the face. And Jennifer Rogers, our stage manager, kids, on the monitor, you could see out to the audience. It was in like, night vision, and she saw it was laughing because, like, it was bound to happen over a year and a half. Because I just, you know, like, like, scare people. That little girl clocked me, and it was hilarious. That's

[37:46] Mike Abrams: amazing. That was fun. So I do have one final question before that. Though, I want to know, what are you working on currently? Where can we see you right

[37:57] Speaker 2: now? I am just, I just finished choreographing Kristin Chenoweth most recent Broadway show, and now I am back to the grind of being an actor. I've got a couple of concert gigs coming up, all this blah, blah, blah, boring stuff, but yeah, a couple things in the works. But at this current moment, I am talking to you

[38:16] Mike Abrams: amazing. Okay, my final question, and you know it's coming. I have spent the entire podcast saying that grizabell was the wrong cat to die. So do you agree with me, or if you disagree with me, well, I guess if you agree with me, who do you think should have died? And if you disagree with me, Why should grizzabel have

[38:35] Speaker 2: died? I think Gus should have died. Like, I think Gus was on his last leg and like, Grizabella, like, I mean, listen, like she gets that moment, but like, I think the twist would have been Gus to like, because the thing that I say with cats is like, cats is like, American Idol for felines. Like, everyone's just like, pick me, pick me. My character was not like that. He was just there to, like, have a party and like, party like, he doesn't want to go. He's got more life to live. And Grizabella, it's, it's, you know, maybe I sound like a jerk, but I, for me, I was always like, Wait, why is Gus not going like he just had this moment, and maybe he goes after this and crawls off and dies. But if he's gonna crawl off and die, you might as well, like, just let him go on that last ride, flying through the sky to the heavy side lair, you know, like, Chris, Grizabella has got a couple more, like, diseases to catch. Like, let her do her thing. She's got, she's got more rehab to go. Yeah, come on. Like, she's got, she needs to, like, you know, she needs to take life's, you know, negative things and turn into something positive. I stop being a victim completely. This is I've been have so many fans cover me right now, they're gonna come for me, because I've covered for Grizabella, and that's not a reflection on Mamie or Leona. It's just, why do we feel so sorry for Grizabella? What about Gus justice? For Gus,

[39:53] Mike Abrams: for sure. What about textoffice Or what's your version togo police? Oh, there's no. There's never, I think you should. You should go together like Bert and Ernie. Yeah,

[40:01] Speaker 2: we should. They probably will. It's got to be something epic. Something epic. Well,

[40:09] Mike Abrams: thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. How can we find you on social media so everyone can comment and send you that hate

[40:16] Speaker 2: mail and or some new or some new like fan rod, fan art, Tugger. Shanks. I'm at the Tyler Haines, amazing. Well,

[40:30] Mike Abrams: thanks for listening to this bonus episode with Tyler Haines on the wrong cat died the podcast breakdown of the cat's atrophy. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify Stitcher, or anywhere else you listen to podcasts. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram at the wrong cat died, or check out our website, the roncatdide.com you.